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I meant for a mine. Why would a mine that is expected to have a smaller chance to hit have a smaller yield than one with a near guaranteed projected
In that case it depends entirely on the fuse.
Generally bigger the boat the easier it is to hit. The size of the mine is irrelevant other than yield and visibility.
I must have misunderstood then. I thought "breaking the back" of a ship was about where you target it and that the advancement would be about making a remote controlled (or in WHF magically triggered) mine that waits till the ship is above it instead of just touching it.
hit chance?
Breaking the back of a ship with a torpedo requires an explosive to detonate within a narrow window of time such that the explosive force is placed upon a ship's geometric load bearing center with enough force to overwhelm its engineered maximum, which usually involves the application of high explosives. Doing so with the means available would be similar to shooting the tyres off a car using a musket, you're probably not going to hit, and if you hit you probably wouldn't be looking at enough penetration to burst the tyre rather than tear it a bit..

Also remote control is hard, yes, even with magic. We checked, you need a continuous signal carrier, so its possible to wire trigger if you had a Gold Wizard, but the flowing water would be disrupting it with Ghyran otherwise.
First I must admit that I know nothing of explosion related engineering. So I trusted Vebyast in his assessment of how much yield is needed and how difficult it is to place such a mine in a river.

Regarding the trigger though, to my knowledge it should be as cheap as 0.5 CF per bomb fuze from a Gold Magister, or the equivalent in whatever currency a Marienburg Chamon Mage accepts. All you need is a delayed "Stoke the Forge" X seconds after whatever thing with a very large Chamon presence floats into detection range. And the delay can also be done chemically or mechanically if using just magic is too complex. Sure, a bomb where just the fuze costs ~50gp isn't cheap, but it would be an okay investment if the mission is deemed important enough.
Enchantments are neither cheap, easy, nor consistent, especially when you're trying to accomplish an effect(detect metal of particular quantity) that no established spell has and then use that to trigger a second spell.
This is very solidly in the realm of One Off Wonder, which doesn't make sense to be used here. Its beyond the cost of "I paid some dudes to get some attacks done", and closer to "someone high in a council of a nationstate funded a research project to produce ONE bomb".

The level of investment is irrational - its a lot to spend on an attack which would only piss off the Karaz Ankor beyond reason, specifically targeting them, while not materially harming their warmaking or canal building capabilities. If you're spending this much effort on the attack it doesn't make sense to slack off on picking a target.

Hell, by picking off the leading vessel of the convoy, it ensures the whole river convoy has to stop and remain in position.
This attack, in other words, is done solely to hurt the Karaz Ankor on a strategic scale.
It makes sense if you're trying to weaken them on a scale of centuries, or if you were counting on it to bring them into a selfdestructive war.
It does not make sense if you're a human polity.
 
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Depends on them. Dwarf culture doesn't really have a way to directly force the issue if someone doesn't want to, even if they 'should'. And them living in Marienburg instead of the Karaz Ankor would mean they're removed from most of the soft pressure too.
The big merchant family would still be subject to it, since their main income is trade with dwarf holds. I guess a dwarf engineer that built the mine would be much more isolated, and could just not care.
No, that hasn't been the case for a while now.
I would guess about the time we failed really hard at dying.

Thorgim really can't decide. First he gets grumpy because Belegar doesn't do what he's told, but then he gets ungrumpy (for a dwarf) because Belegar doesn't do what he's told. Should really stop flipflopping, it's shoddy *grumble grumble*
 
It requires specific innovations in mechanical engineering, material sciences and chemistry to create the possibility of performing such a hit

This feels like you are over-thinking it a lot. The simplest explanation seems to be one or more sealed barrels of gunpowder sunk in the main channel, with a string-pull flint-lock mechanism running to the bank, and bad luck on the part of the dwarves that a crude mine got a hit sufficient to tear enough holes in the hull for a quick sinking, either through pressure or back-break stress.

Until we get evidence above and beyond that, my assumption will be that this was not an advanced weapon.
 
Actually a thought, if we recover the breached section of the ship, even a small sample, could Breach the Unknown give hints on what exactly the weapon was that blew it up?
 
Dark Elves going for a long-shot attempt to drag the Dwarves and Elves into another war via Marienburg!
 
You fools, you utter buffoons, why are we wasting time with such pointless speculation when we already had a foolproof way of finding the culprit?

Not sure if joke about Dwarven height or not.

Let's discover who's really responsible for this.

1. Tzeentch, JUST AS PLANNED!
2. Stupid Sexy Lahmians
3. To Everyone's Surprise, Mork
4. RANAAAAAAALD
5. Clan Eshin, yes-yes!
6. The Slann, somehow

Result: 5
 
You fools, you utter buffoons, why are we wasting time with such pointless speculation when we already had a foolproof way of finding the culprit?
Ah, but who tricked the culprit into doing it?

1. Tzeentch, JUST AS PLANNED!
2. Stupid Sexy Lahmians
3. To Everyone's Surprise, Mork
4. RANAAAAAAALD
5. Clan Eshin, yes-yes!
6. The Slann, somehow
NSMS threw 1 6-faced dice. Total: 4
4 4
 
Ah, but who tricked the culprit into doing it?

1. Tzeentch, JUST AS PLANNED!
2. Stupid Sexy Lahmians
3. To Everyone's Surprise, Mork
4. RANAAAAAAALD
5. Clan Eshin, yes-yes!
6. The Slann, somehow
It's all for our own good. :V
We got the change to flex at the dorfies and now we can all be friends while shooting at the skaven.
 
Ah, but who tricked the culprit into doing it?

1. Tzeentch, JUST AS PLANNED!
2. Stupid Sexy Lahmians
3. To Everyone's Surprise, Mork
4. RANAAAAAAALD
5. Clan Eshin, yes-yes!
6. The Slann, somehow

My god, it all fits! The boxcars, and then the double 4??? Those were the dice rolls that led to Mathilde personally saving the lives of the most dwarves, while using the aspect of Ranald the Protector - thus garnering us the greatest possible amount of dwarf favor from this!
 
This feels like you are over-thinking it a lot. The simplest explanation seems to be one or more sealed barrels of gunpowder sunk in the main channel, with a string-pull flint-lock mechanism running to the bank, and bad luck on the part of the dwarves that a crude mine got a hit sufficient to tear enough holes in the hull for a quick sinking, either through pressure or back-break stress.

Until we get evidence above and beyond that, my assumption will be that this was not an advanced weapon.
The issue is, the kind of damage we're talking about takes something like a hundred kilos of gunpowder. Its less a barrel of powder(which would potentially damage the ship if it landed perfectly), and more like a wagon dragged into the middle of the river.
 
My god, it all fits! The boxcars, and then the double 4??? Those were the dice rolls that led to Mathilde personally saving the lives of the most dwarves, while using the aspect of Ranald the Protector - thus garnering us the greatest possible amount of dwarf favor from this!
As far as personal status goes, Mathilde is probably the only one that actually benefited from the whole mess.

Well, Belegar might get some reflected credit, though I'm unsure if that makes up for the fact that it happened during the travel back from him. I'd say a tentative yes, because he didn't ask for the Orkral, it was to make up for the failure of the High King to send timely aid.
 
As far as personal status goes, Mathilde is probably the only one that actually benefited from the whole mess.

Well, Belegar might get some reflected credit, though I'm unsure if that makes up for the fact that it happened during the travel back from him. I'd say a tentative yes, because he didn't ask for the Orkral, it was to make up for the failure of the High King to send timely aid.
The Okral was closer to KaK, than to K8P. The incident occurred while in goblin territory... I don't think this is going to come bite Belegar.
 
This feels like you are over-thinking it a lot. The simplest explanation seems to be one or more sealed barrels of gunpowder sunk in the main channel, with a string-pull flint-lock mechanism running to the bank, and bad luck on the part of the dwarves that a crude mine got a hit sufficient to tear enough holes in the hull for a quick sinking, either through pressure or back-break stress.

Until we get evidence above and beyond that, my assumption will be that this was not an advanced weapon.

Wouldn't work, basically, even with a golden-bb style hit. The barrels would be too low in the water. This is a very fast moving river, so it'll be deep (and a dwarven monitor pilot isn't going to be scraping his vessel along the riverbed, hitting every boulder that has shifted out of position since last time) , so you need barrells tethered to anchors on the bottom with floatation devices to make them sit at a depth just below the ships hull, which means you need to know the ship's displacement (and how heavily loaded they are), and to be able to set the depth appropriately.

A string pull flintlock mechanism also isn't going to work here. You're talking about mines in a very strong current in a piranha infested river. Think of the geometry here. The mine is going to be floating, anchored on a chain, swaying in the current. It will blow itself up first as it sways from side to side with such a mechanism. There's a reason that the first OTL tethered submerged mines of this type used electric triggers.
 
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The issue is, the kind of damage we're talking about takes something like a hundred kilos of gunpowder. Its less a barrel of powder(which would potentially damage the ship if it landed perfectly), and more like a wagon dragged into the middle of the river.

We haven't actually seen any of the damage yet, jus the end result and some speculation. The number of complications and one-off factors that could radically change how the energy was applied is unknown, until we get a drydock.

Personally, I'm kinda surprised people are ruling out greenskins. Don't the goblins do bombs?


Wouldn't work, basically, even with a golden-bb style hit. The barrels would be too low in the water. This is a very fast moving river, so it'll be deep (and a dwarven monitor pilot isn't going to be scraping his vessel along the riverbed, hitting every boulder that has shifted out of position since last time) , so you need barrells tethered to anchors on the bottom with floatation devices to make them sit at a depth just below the ships hull, which means you need to know the ship's displacement (and how heavily loaded they are), and to be able to set the depth appropriately.

Or, you need to get lucky and have it just work out that way. Personally, given the number of relevant variables that are unknown (how deep is the river? how wide is the channel? How fast is it actually moving, and how frequently does the channel change? as a start) I'm very uncomfortable making broad declarations from an armchair. If you had some experiments to point to, sure, but a fantasy dwarven river monitor vs unknown fantasy explosives in a situation where we have almost no information about what happened is not a place for absolute statements.
 
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We haven't actually seen any of the damage yet, jus the end result and some speculation. The number of complications and one-off factors that could radically change how the energy was applied is unknown, until we get a drydock.

Personally, I'm kinda surprised people are ruling out greenskins. Don't the goblins do bombs?
They don't wait for hours after the bomb to do stuff.
If its greenskins they'd assault once the remaining monitors disembark to aid or clear the lead one
 
We haven't actually seen any of the damage yet, jus the end result and some speculation. The number of complications and one-off factors that could radically change how the energy was applied is unknown, until we get a drydock.

Personally, I'm kinda surprised people are ruling out greenskins. Don't the goblins do bombs?
Orcs and goblins tend pretty heavily towards the lower end of the tech tree. That's not to say they couldn't take out a monitor, but they'd probably have to use magic or brute force for it. Plus, muskets don't fit their MO.
 
We haven't actually seen any of the damage yet, jus the end result and some speculation. The number of complications and one-off factors that could radically change how the energy was applied is unknown, until we get a drydock.

Personally, I'm kinda surprised people are ruling out greenskins. Don't the goblins do bombs?
If it was greenskins, we would probably be up to our ears in greenskins.
Also don't think they do muskets.
 
That said, I agree that daemonsmithing could also do the job. I agree with the current winning vote: Finding a part of this bomb that we can inspect is absolutely top priority. Undoubtedly more likely to lead us to the perpetrators than the bandits themselves are.
If this is a daemonsmithed bomb then Johann is going to go mad the second he investigates

So let's hope its not that
 
The Okral was closer to KaK, than to K8P. The incident occurred while in goblin territory... I don't think this is going to come bite Belegar.

Wasn't it closer to K8P or else the gyrocopter would have gone to Kak?

The considering the possible routes on the Skull river the closest hold could have been K8P, Barak Varr or Kak; but considering Belegar and Mathilde got there first it's likely K8P was closest.
 
Wasn't it closer to K8P or else the gyrocopter would have gone to Kak?

K8P had a gyrocopter tailing the Okral, when shit went down it went to Barak Varr first to raise the alarm and then back home to K8P. Barak Varr's air force is underdeveloped and what they do have is attached to their navy or keeping tabs on the prices of various goods so KaK will only be hearing about it about nowish.
 
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