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They knew that the monitor was coming; they were literally lined up on the shore waiting for it to get hit.

They knew a monitor had to be coming. There's probably semi-regular monitor trips going between the canal and Barak Varr.

What the bandits didn't expect is several monitors carrying part of the Orkal; if they were paid by Marienburg they might have decided to hit anyway to get a bigger bonus or perhaps the mine was already deployed and they couldn't stop it.

Either that or it is a false flag (which could be done by anyone).
 
but really, while in theory the magitek mines are possible, I think they are just too convoluted to be cost effective, you would need a minimum of 2 enchantments to make an effective deployment (one to detach the mine from the bottom, and one to detonate it at the right distance), and having 2 enchantments per mine, when in most cases a regular mine would work just as well, and you can deploy one hundred mines for each advanced mine just makes them a waste.

I can see the chaos dwarves using them tho, but not on mines, torpedoes since they actually have the submarines to make the right use of them, and the mentality to use advanced weapons to ensure victory.
I'm not sure if you can deploy a hundred "basic" mines. Even contact fuzes are hard. You don't see any successful contact fuzes until the 1870s, where someone figures out that you can cover the mine with vials of sulfuric acid that, when smashed, run down into a lead-acid battery to energize the ignition circuit. Before that the most successful solution was a vial of sulfuric acid next to a bunch of potassium perchlorate and sugar. I might see the Golds being able to pull that off, but I'm not sure. Mechanical contact fuzes are incredibly difficult to get right. I highly recommend reading about the development of the US Mark 14 Torpedo, a WWII tragicomedy in which the United States Navy fails for two years to make its torpedo blow up right. Other than those, the only effective solution is to mount a flintlock action off a rifle and have an observer pull a string at the right time.
1. The damage caused by a torpedo is in part because it is an object with a frontal cross section of perhaps a square foot that could weigh up to several tons traveling at 60 knots. An explosion caused by a torpedo is made significantly worse by the fact that by the time a torpedo detonates, it's momentum has carried it through the outer hull and into the ship. An explosion inside of a ship is exponentially worse than one outside of it. During the carrier battles of the Second World War, a near miss was not really much better than a total miss. Japanese D3A1s carrying 250kg bombs which had about half of that in high explosive did no significant damage whatsoever on American carriers on near misses, even ones that were within a few meters of the ship.
The positioning is important. Near misses next to the ship are entirely different than near misses underneath the ship.

(The math is also... I wouldn't call it "questionable", but I'm kind of doubtful. Lock time on a torpedo contact fuze doesn't look like it'd be much more than 10 ms, comparable to a hammer-fired small arm. At 60 knots that's something like 30 centimeters of travel. I could see it taking a whole meter for the rest of the chain to complete, but...)
 
I'm not sure if you can deploy a hundred "basic" mines. Even contact fuzes are hard. You don't see any successful contact fuzes until the 1870s, where someone figures out that you can cover the mine with vials of sulfuric acid that, when smashed, run down into a lead-acid battery to energize the ignition circuit. Before that the most successful solution was a vial of sulfuric acid next to a bunch of potassium perchlorate and sugar. I might see the Golds being able to pull that off, but I'm not sure. Mechanical contact fuzes are incredibly difficult to get right. I highly recommend reading about the development of the US Mark 14 Torpedo, a WWII tragicomedy in which the United States Navy fails for two years to make its torpedo blow up right. Other than those, the only effective solution is to mount a flintlock action off a rifle and have an observer pull a string at the right time.
The positioning is important. Near misses next to the ship are entirely different than near misses underneath the ship.

(The math is also... I wouldn't call it "questionable", but I'm kind of doubtful. Lock time on a torpedo contact fuze doesn't look like it'd be much more than 10 ms, comparable to a hammer-fired small arm. At 60 knots that's something like 30 centimeters of travel. I could see it taking a whole meter for the rest of the chain to complete, but...)

This is very true, especially in the context of Post-WW2 weaponry, where modern day precision keel breaking with the torpedo never hitting the hull is basically standard procedure, but for the context we're concerned about it's basically irrelevant, especially seeing as how the ship didn't break up. Keel up damage probably would have snapped it in two. As for contact fusing, it's true that this isn't a great distance, but the mere act of piercing the hull at all somewhat "channels" the explosion and directs more of the force horizontally towards the path of least resistance(the pierced hull of the ship) than up and about where it does no good towards damaging the ship.
 
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Second, all this speculation about IRL naval explosives, as cool as it is, is moot unless Boney did a similar amount of research. Which is possible, but given that this is a fantasy quest and not an alt-history quest, certainly not guaranteed.
Boney gets to read these too, and can integrate the stuff he finds useful into the quest. Or not, because Warhammer Physics is fuzzy.
 
Something to remember: Mathilde and Johann can't explain anything about his ability to pscho-scan metal. Cause that's a grudg'n.

Actually, having that ability is not a grudging... it does mean that no (gold?) wizard will be ever allowed near any Dwarf dwarfhold again tho.

Hey @BoneyM out of curiosity, is there any sort of equivalent to the game of Russian Roulette in the Old World? Because that really seems like a perfect way to describe what we just did if anyone asks or we have a reason to describe it. Russian Roulette of the soul, where every life we saved was another pull of the trigger. Good thing we worship a god of luck and gambling, huh?

The Old World equivalent to russian roulette? That would be chain casting.
 
Dwarven in the sense of the race, or dwarven in the sense of the culture of Karaz Ankor? I can't really see Karaz Ankor dwarfs doing well as a merchant family in Marienburg, though that might be buying too much into dwarf stereotypes.

The dwarven merchant clans of Barak Varr are, IIRC, notorious for playing just as hard (and by implication, dirty) as their human rivals in Marienberg.

Totally unrelated to the current discussion: I got nerd sniped by something way back around the update. I don't think that it actually affects the vote, but I thought it was interesting, so /shrug

TL;DR Sinking ironclads with simple black powder charges is a) entirely doable and b) requires far less powder than you might expect. An off-the-shelf barrel of gunpowder could have sent that dwarven monitor to the bottom in two pieces. Having looked at historical examples, primarily a list of WWII destroyers that sank instantly after eating single torpedoes, I am shocked that so many dwarves survived.

The trick is that you're not trying to blow a hole in the ship. You're trying to blow a hole in the water beneath the ship, which results in a triple whammy. The gas bubble from the initial explosion lifts the ship in the water, which the hull isn't designed to deal with. Then the ship falls into the hole, bending it in the opposite direction. Then the water rushes back in to fill the hole and slams into the ship from below. You hear perfect torpedo hits described as "breaking a ship's back" because that's exactly what happens: the ship folds in half and then disintegrates.

Putting holes in ships basically doesn't work, especially when the ships have watertight compartments like we saw. Shaped charges, which by making the smallest possible hole necessary to project a useful quantity of extremely angry shrapnel, are particularly useless for this task. The defense against a shaped charge is to put a half-inch air-gap between two metal plates; the shaped charge puts a hole in the outer plate and then the angry shrapnel bounces harmlessly off the inner plate. A ship's compartments are exactly that but even more effective because the air-gap is meters wide instead of inches. Any soft targets in the compartment are toast, but the hole is small enough to be patched. At worst one compartment will flood.

To support this, I'll cite the warheads on some semi-modern anti-ship weapons. The P-700 Granit uses a straight HE warhead. The Harpoon and LRASM both use simple HE-frag warheads. Torpedoes similarly use straight HE warheads, which I'll dive into later.

Then the question is whether Marienburg would know how to use explosives to sink ships. Given that they're one of the setting's major naval powers, and the only one that appears to have a harbor to defend, I'd guess that they've put more R&D into naval mines than anyone elese in the setting. So, yes, I expect that Marienburg would know how to design an efficient and effective naval mine.

Now for the size of the explosive that was used against the Dwarven Monitor here.

Looking at historical naval mines, most of them were much smaller than this, likely because they were randomly scattered around trying to hit targets in the middle of the ocean. The remote-controlled naval mines that the US Navy used to defend its harbors from 1880s to the 1950s, for example, appear to have generally had payloads around 50kg. I could believe that mine hit rates down around a tenth of a percent. This mine was deployed against a known target in an extreme bottleneck, so I'd guess its hit rate might well have been expected to be 100%, and it could have been built with a commensurately larger warhead. How large, though?

WWII torpedoes appear to have had a hit rate around 15%, so we'll look at those. They exclusively used HE charges with weights ranging from under 300kg (early-war German model, late-war German model, US model) to 500 kg (Japanese type 93, the most advanced naval torpedo of the war). Black powder has a relative effectiveness of 0.55. Torpex, the WWII US standard for torp warheads, is at 1.30. Hexanite, the WWII German standard for torpedo warheads, was "slightly less powerful than TNT on its own". The WWII torpedoes were designed to engage armored surface combatants displacing anywhere from 2000 tons (USN Destroyer, German WWII Destroyers) to 50,000 tons (USN battleship, list of WWII aircraft carriers). A single torpedo hit would usually kill one of the smaller vessels, often within minutes: Royal Navy escort carrier "Struck by only one torpedo, she quickly sank", US Destroyer "stricken" after one torpedo, Royal Navy destroyer lost with 220/236 crew in the middle of a convoy after being struck by two torpedoes.

The monitor that was sunk displaced just over 1000 tons, about half the size of the destroyers I was citing up there. We'd therefore expect the monitor to go down almost instantly to about half as much boom as the WWII torpedoes. Relative efficiency is about half that of WWII torpedo warhead fills, so about 500kg of black powder would do the job. The black powder cited above has a density of 1.65 kg/liter, so this would be about 300 liters of black powder. This is, conveniently enough, about the same size as the barrels traditionally used for things like flour and wine! The "hogshead" is 250 liters, for example.

If you can get the explosive into precisely the right place, you don't need that much easier of the explosives.

Getting the explosives beneath a ship and getting them to go off at the right time is the very very hard, requiring sophisticated detonators and the ability to control the depth of the mine. That's why we've been talking about detonators and tethers, and the difficulties involved in making and deploying them. You basically need early to mid twentieth century technology to make something that will work automatically, and mid to late nineteenth century tech to make something that can be triggered by a remote command for this kind of mine. Otherwise you end up with something that blows up next to the ship; not beneath the ship, which then needs the vastly more powerful explosives we moved on to talk about to sink the ship.

This is a generally renaissance setting. I don't believe Marienberg has nineteenth century technology.
 
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If you can get the explosive into precisely the right place, you don't need that much easier of the explosives.

Getting the explosives beneath a ship and getting them to go off at the right time is the very very hard not, requiring sophisticated detonators and the ability to control the depth of the mine. That's why we've been talking about detonators and tethers, and the difficulties involved in making them. You basically need early to mid twentieth century technology to make something that will work automatically, and mid to late nineteenth century tech to make something that can be triggered by a remote command for this kind of mine.

This is a generally renaissance setting. I don't believe Marienberg has nineteenth century technology.

I have been convinced that it's not Marienburg's plot, but I don't think that this quest is set in renaissance tech.

17th century shizo-tech would be my guess.
 
It is my deep sadness that you guys who've been here since the stirland days decided to not interact with Mathilde's past at all when you had the chance.

Some closure is important afterall.

I feel like facing that first betrayal and just fucking dealing with it is would be good for mathilde's soul.
Did you read the chapter where she visits Kelham (her village of birth)? Because it didn't make "interacting with her past" seem like a worthwhile endeavor.
and given the circumstances of their parting, I don't see it likely that any of her family members would think reconnecting is a great idea.
Maybe a younger sibling that didn't have the mental or physical capacity to take a the blame back then and now knows of her power and wealth might try to reconnect.
Honestly Mathildes family probably wants to bury their connection to her now since you know, beloved folk hero of Stirland. Being the people who almost killed her is probably not something they want to be known as.
That's just true for her parents and maybe any siblings that were close to adulthood and present at the time.
A younger sibling that vaguely remembers her, did nothing other than cry in confusion back then, and has since moved to another town could easily be boasting about being somehow connected to that Weber.
The remote-controlled naval mines that the US Navy used to defend its harbors from 1880s
How did they remote control a naval mine in the 1880s?
I could believe that mine hit rates down around a tenth of a percent. This mine was deployed against a known target in an extreme bottleneck, so I'd guess its hit rate might well have been expected to be 100%, and it could have been built with a commensurately larger warhead. How large, though?

WWII torpedoes appear to have had a hit rate around 15%, so we'll look at those. They exclusively used HE charges with weights ranging from under 300kg (early-war German model, late-war German model, US model) to 500 kg (Japanese type 93, the most advanced naval torpedo of the war).
Why is hit rate correlated to size?
So, after reading a bit, it seems the method you described for "breaking a ships back" is a fairly modern technique and likely centuries ahead of what Marienburg would be able to use, it seems that ships surviving multiple impacts was the norm instead of sinking rapidly after a single hit, and those were of course shoddy ships that had nothing on a proper dwarf river monitor.

if we are going to worry about them having that kind of underwater weapon, we might as well worry about their use of stealth bombers or surface to air missiles.
There's two different types of technological advancement. One is incremental inventions that can't happen in very different orders or time frames, requiring specific materials, advancements in industry and prior tools and such. The other are advancements that have had all necessary tools available for quite some time, but had no one think of it yet. This particular one seems like the latter while stealth bombers and surface to air missiles are decidedly in the former.

Surface dwarfs are defined by rejecting many of the socio-cultural norms of Karaz Ankor, the more integrated into human cities the greater the cleavage. That said there is some cultural overlap to even the most independent of surfce clans since without the rites of Valaya for instance they would have long since turned to stone.
Huh. The Runes of Valaya on the Dwarf Holds supposedly protect the Dwarves from extinction. Does this mean that the Karaz Ankor energy distribution system feeds Runes/rituals/[redacted] throughout the Old World or that pregnant surface Dwarves always travel back to the Holds before giving birth so that the Rite of Valaya can be performed on their newborn?
The answer is most definitely "Mathilde doesn't know because it's a sacred racial secret", but it's still interesting to think about.
 
The 12 on a 2d6 last update meant that virtually nobody escaped, the 8 on a 2d4 this update was for how many could still be saved. This is why I do major dice-rolls in thread or on Orokos, because if I didn't I couldn't really blame anyone for suspecting the rolls had been faked to increase the drama. By my maths that's about a 2% chance.
It's actually a 1/416 chance for this specific outcome. Double 6s are a 1/36, and double 4s are a 1/16. 36*16 = 416. It's certainly an unlikely outcome, although in my opinion rarer events have happened.

Actually actually it's about 0.2% chance since 36*16=576, not 416, and 1/576 is about 0.0017=0.17%. I was forced to do this by @picklepikkl's silence.

It'll depend entirely on how Boney feels when they give it to us. Like a gacha, but bad.
...so exactly like a gacha? :V
 
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Marienburg has a lot of madlads thanks to the library of Verena, so...

Verena and madlads. That combination does not really work together at all, in any way. Particularly as the main collections are only usually accessible to the clergy of Verena, with outsiders having to pass an extensive written test followed by an in depth personal interviews with the Chief Librarian-Priest to check the applicants probity.

THat doesn't sound like the kind of thing a Madlad would pass.
 
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Marienburg has a lot of madlads thanks to the library of Verena, so...

No they dont. Mad lads are like Leonardo da Miragliano creating impossible inventions for their time and tech equivalency. The engineering school in Marienburg is equivalent to the nuln gunnery school. They make mundane tech that's appropriate to their knowledge level. Anything else is not supported in WHF setting materials, now obviously quest canon is what ever BoneyM wants, but the default until we learn otherwise is that.

Verena and madlads. That combination does not really work together at all, in any way.

There's also that.
 
I've seen the use of the protector coin brought up a few times but I'm not sure why. From my understanding the protector is useful for getting the credit for an action that Mathilde might not otherwise be able to get attributed to her. For example assassinating an Orc Warboss in their camp which prevents an Orc attack.

The Protector: When you act in a way that defends an individual or group from a danger that you did not cause, they will become aware of what you have done and will believe you acted selflessly in doing so.

In this case Mathilde directly rescued a bunch of dwarfs while Belegar is standing right there. This isn't a case where the Mathilde's contribution isn't going to be noticed and obviously attributed to her.
 
I've seen the use of the protector coin brought up a few times but I'm not sure why. From my understanding the protector is useful for getting the credit for an action that Mathilde might not otherwise be able to get attributed to her. For example assassinating an Orc Warboss in their camp which prevents an Orc attack.



In this case Mathilde directly rescued a bunch of dwarfs while Belegar is standing right there. This isn't a case where the Mathilde's contribution isn't going to be noticed and obviously attributed to her.
Boney's said the Protector would let the dwarves she rescued know just how much she was putting herself at risk and do so without providing details.
 
I've seen the use of the protector coin brought up a few times but I'm not sure why. From my understanding the protector is useful for getting the credit for an action that Mathilde might not otherwise be able to get attributed to her. For example assassinating an Orc Warboss in their camp which prevents an Orc attack.



In this case Mathilde directly rescued a bunch of dwarfs while Belegar is standing right there. This isn't a case where the Mathilde's contribution isn't going to be noticed and obviously attributed to her.

They will intuitively understand the danger she was facing but not why in doing so. The fact that she risked her life makes her feat more impressive. It will also mean that the news spreads much faster and further than should be normally possible. On top of that it's required for the Karak Dum expedition where it will help tremendously to smooth over any issues with the Karak Dum Dwarves.

There's no known hard numbers to this but think of it as being a multiple to the reputation and favour gain and potentially opening doors that didn't exist before at all. It's a godly artifact of immense power, the change in outcome is unlikely to be trivial.
 
Also, they're all made to think she was being selfless rather than a more typical set of broader opinions about a person's motivation (job, reward, making sure that they are not to blame for [event]
 
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