Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting will open in 19 hours, 46 minutes
Not everything needs some deep and emmotional closure, sometimes all you need is to walk away.

I know, but the deep and emotional closure sure is fun to read about though!

Also theres this tinny niggling in my brain that makes me not want to leave any loose ends if i can possibly avoid them.


Write up an omake, I suppose?

I don't see Mathilde ever choosing to look into that of her own free will, given her characterization up until now - so much of her has been defined purely by opposition to the environment she grew up in.

No doubt her drive to understand others no matter how alien they seem (as evidenced by her approaching the We and Cython, among other things) is in large part due to having personally experienced the pain of having that xenophobia turned against her.

And if Mathilde doesn't initiate the meeting... well, random Stirland Peasants aren't really in a position to meet with a Lord Magister who lives half the continent away in a dwarfhold, even if they want to.

I would... but I don't even know where to start.

Also i don't think I have the necessary skills to do it justice.

Mores the pity.

If someone does write an omake about this, they would almost certainly have a like from me though!
 
Last edited:
Considering that we aren't going to be available I am guessing that Belegar will assign Prince Kazrik to this. Now Prince Kazrik hasn't struck me as being better at intrigue then the average dwarf, but he does get on well with humans. Maybe he has friends that he can get to look into it or will give him information?
 
Considering that we aren't going to be available I am guessing that Belegar will assign Prince Kazrik to this. Now Prince Kazrik hasn't struck me as being better at intrigue then the average dwarf, but he does get on well with humans. Maybe he has friends that he can get to look into it or will give him information?
Kazrik is Diplomacy, this seems more like a Martial matter after Intrigue. Dreng is the Ranger so he'll probably be in charge of the actual hunt for the perpetrators, although Gotri will likely be involved in transport, aerial search if needed, and the engineering side of the investigation i.e. exactly how the ship sank. Kazrik might be involved as a liaison to Barak Varr's and KaK's investigations, as well as possibly bringing in the Grey College and the Empire's intelligence apparatus.
 
This was an attack on Karaz-a-Karak clans, in the care of Barak Varr shipping. The Okral had in my view left K8P and been passed off to Barak Varr.
Belegar is third in line for claim of harm or investigative responsibility here.
 
Considering that we aren't going to be available I am guessing that Belegar will assign Prince Kazrik to this. Now Prince Kazrik hasn't struck me as being better at intrigue then the average dwarf, but he does get on well with humans. Maybe he has friends that he can get to look into it or will give him information?
Hmm... if it does turn out to be connected to Chaos Dwarves could we recommend Lady Magister Grey take a look? She has a lot more experience dealing with their intrigue and I don't imagine blowing up all those Hellforges will make her less popular with regular dwarves. We are a Lady Magister now so trying to get another Grey Wizard to look into something as important as a potential war starting grudge vs Marienburg is in our wheelhouse now.

I do have to question what any other member of the Grey College might do in this situation though. I can't 100% say if trying to manipulate events so the dwarves go after Marienburg would be something they would do or not. On one hand they definitely would love to take a crack at them with Dwarf support on the other it has been pointed out that this is a bad time since so many provinces aren't ready to mobilize and the situation is complex. The possibility exist though and that is very uncomfortable.
 
This was an attack on Karaz-a-Karak clans, in the care of Barak Varr shipping. The Okral had in my view left K8P and been passed off to Barak Varr.
Belegar is third in line for claim of harm or investigative responsibility here.
KaK is the one who was wronged and who's citizens have died so they have the most claim, Barak Varr had the incident happen in their "territory" and it was their ship that was attacked so they can argue it falls under their jurisdiction, K8P would normally not be involved but we were the first responders and the ones who started the investigation, unless Belegar explicitly decides to let KaK and Barak Varr be the ones to deal with it we're going to be involved in some fashion.
 
I think that we can expect about every major player in the empire, Karaz-a-Karak and Marienburg is going to spend at least 1 AP on this development well we are away. It could turn into a real complicated mess.

Hope we don't have to overwork to finish "rite of way". We are going to have to help with the clean up when we get back.
 
Last edited:
I think that we can expect about every major player in both the empire, Karaz-a-Karak and Marienburg is going to spend at least 1 AP on this development well we are away. It could turn into a real complicated mess.
I don't think every major player in the Empire will be involved, many Elector Counts and non-Sigmar Churches will have no reason to be involved, they aren't close to Marienburg or Karaz Ankor geographically, politically, or economically.
 
Honestly Mathildes family probably wants to bury their connection to her now since you know, beloved folk hero of Stirland. Being the people who almost killed her is probably not something they want to be known as.
No, I doubt they made the connection.
There are many Mathildes in the world. Its not a rare name. Neither are Webers, Webbers, Vebers, etc.

Mathilde Weber the peasant child was to be burned while her family hid away, then disappeared never to be seen again. Mathilde Weber the Journeyman Wizard Spymaster of Stirland walked the village and not a single face recognized the stern imposing wizard for the screaming child of yesteryear. Ten years changes much in a child.

At most, a twinge of old sorrow and regret.
I don't know- it sounds like you are going in with the idea that the QM knows, when writing up the options, which one is actually best and actually worst. I'm really not sure it ever works like that, especially with dice never happening for the parts not chosen, so we don't even get the situation setting 'how bad is it?' rolls.

I'm more of the type to think that most choices will be pretty balanced, both form an IC perspective of the character discarding obvious bad choices, or taking the obvious best choice without a vote of it exists. OOC, I see it as a question of establishing character rather than optimizing a problem, even though I know some quests are about the optimization- I think those tend to give clearer feedback, in the manner you were looking for. But I figured this story can be written to support any of the choices we make, as can a majority of others, so there aren't really lessons to be taken away, just character arcs to establish.
Boney's always given options which in character Mathilde feels to be reasonable. Sometimes they ARE duds, but if they are duds, then Mathilde would have no way to know they were until she did it. And she'd learn something even from the dud too.

Though noting that being Brave, high Magic, and by now a decade of jumping headfirst into danger and coming out successful, Mathilde has an unusual perspective on risks.
 
Totally unrelated to the current discussion: I got nerd sniped by something way back around the update. I don't think that it actually affects the vote, but I thought it was interesting, so /shrug

TL;DR Sinking ironclads with simple black powder charges is a) entirely doable and b) requires far less powder than you might expect. An off-the-shelf barrel of gunpowder could have sent that dwarven monitor to the bottom in two pieces. Having looked at historical examples, primarily a list of WWII destroyers that sank instantly after eating single torpedoes, I am shocked that so many dwarves survived.

The trick is that you're not trying to blow a hole in the ship. You're trying to blow a hole in the water beneath the ship, which results in a triple whammy. The gas bubble from the initial explosion lifts the ship in the water, which the hull isn't designed to deal with. Then the ship falls into the hole, bending it in the opposite direction. Then the water rushes back in to fill the hole and slams into the ship from below. You hear perfect torpedo hits described as "breaking a ship's back" because that's exactly what happens: the ship folds in half and then disintegrates.

Putting holes in ships basically doesn't work, especially when the ships have watertight compartments like we saw. Shaped charges, which by making the smallest possible hole necessary to project a useful quantity of extremely angry shrapnel, are particularly useless for this task. The defense against a shaped charge is to put a half-inch air-gap between two metal plates; the shaped charge puts a hole in the outer plate and then the angry shrapnel bounces harmlessly off the inner plate. A ship's compartments are exactly that but even more effective because the air-gap is meters wide instead of inches. Any soft targets in the compartment are toast, but the hole is small enough to be patched. At worst one compartment will flood.

To support this, I'll cite the warheads on some semi-modern anti-ship weapons. The P-700 Granit uses a straight HE warhead. The Harpoon and LRASM both use simple HE-frag warheads. Torpedoes similarly use straight HE warheads, which I'll dive into later.

Then the question is whether Marienburg would know how to use explosives to sink ships. Given that they're one of the setting's major naval powers, and the only one that appears to have a harbor to defend, I'd guess that they've put more R&D into naval mines than anyone elese in the setting. So, yes, I expect that Marienburg would know how to design an efficient and effective naval mine.

Now for the size of the explosive that was used against the Dwarven Monitor here.

Looking at historical naval mines, most of them were much smaller than this, likely because they were randomly scattered around trying to hit targets in the middle of the ocean. The remote-controlled naval mines that the US Navy used to defend its harbors from 1880s to the 1950s, for example, appear to have generally had payloads around 50kg. I could believe that mine hit rates down around a tenth of a percent. This mine was deployed against a known target in an extreme bottleneck, so I'd guess its hit rate might well have been expected to be 100%, and it could have been built with a commensurately larger warhead. How large, though?

WWII torpedoes appear to have had a hit rate around 15%, so we'll look at those. They exclusively used HE charges with weights ranging from under 300kg (early-war German model, late-war German model, US model) to 500 kg (Japanese type 93, the most advanced naval torpedo of the war). Black powder has a relative effectiveness of 0.55. Torpex, the WWII US standard for torp warheads, is at 1.30. Hexanite, the WWII German standard for torpedo warheads, was "slightly less powerful than TNT on its own". The WWII torpedoes were designed to engage armored surface combatants displacing anywhere from 2000 tons (USN Destroyer, German WWII Destroyers) to 50,000 tons (USN battleship, list of WWII aircraft carriers). A single torpedo hit would usually kill one of the smaller vessels, often within minutes: Royal Navy escort carrier "Struck by only one torpedo, she quickly sank", US Destroyer "stricken" after one torpedo, Royal Navy destroyer lost with 220/236 crew in the middle of a convoy after being struck by two torpedoes.

The monitor that was sunk displaced just over 1000 tons, about half the size of the destroyers I was citing up there. We'd therefore expect the monitor to go down almost instantly to about half as much boom as the WWII torpedoes. Relative efficiency is about half that of WWII torpedo warhead fills, so about 500kg of black powder would do the job. The black powder cited above has a density of 1.65 kg/liter, so this would be about 300 liters of black powder. This is, conveniently enough, about the same size as the barrels traditionally used for things like flour and wine! The "hogshead" is 250 liters, for example.
 
Last edited:
I do have to question what any other member of the Grey College might do in this situation though. I can't 100% say if trying to manipulate events so the dwarves go after Marienburg would be something they would do or not. On one hand they definitely would love to take a crack at them with Dwarf support on the other it has been pointed out that this is a bad time since so many provinces aren't ready to mobilize and the situation is complex. The possibility exist though and that is very uncomfortable.

It's a possibility but it's less then likely; consider this As a Lady Magister if the grey college was planning operations to trick the dwarves we would be the person that they talked to before carrying them out. They wouldn't have promoted us if they believed that we weren't trust worthy for that sort of task.
 
Totally unrelated to the current discussion: I got nerd sniped by something way back around the update. I don't think that it actually affects the vote, but I thought it was interesting, so /shrug
How is that unrelatd? It's a solid argument that Marienburg could've totally pulled it off without anyone else putting their hands in, and it also gives a solid baseline for how much would be necessary to do this damage.
 
If Marienburg has a lot of these things Barak Varr might have a harder time destroying Marienburg's docks then we thought. It actually might be good thing that we are finding out about them now. Rather then when dreadnoughts sink.
 
Last edited:
This analysis, of course, raises an interesting question. Why did the bandits deploy a warhead that was such complete overkill? They knew that the monitor was coming; they were literally lined up on the shore waiting for it to get hit. They clearly didn't expect it to sink, though, given the way they cleared out shortly thereafter. Furthermore, you don't make money by killing people; you make money by robbing people, and you can't rob people when their cargo is on the bottom of a river. The bandits probably intended to damage the ship to intimidate it or force it to shore. This is even more extreme given that they hit a dwarven monitor, the single most durable thing on that river; anything else would've hit the river-bottom in multiple pieces. What led to the deployment of that bomb?

Incompetence is an easy answer. "One barrel of gunpowder" is a pretty reasonable thing to shove into a river when you don't know how much boom to use, and as I think I demonstrated above, explosives are shockingly efficient underwater. Perhaps they were simply guessing when they sized the warhead and overestimated it dramatically.

I'm not convinced it was an accident. Naval mines aren't the simplest tech around. Setting fuzes underwater is particularly tricky, with the earliest successful tools involving fragile bottles of hypergolic chemicals. It'd be very strange for someone to build a fuze for a naval warhead but mess up the warhead's payload so dramatically.

Rather, I suspect that there was at least a degree of malice involved. I think that that bomb's engineer knew perfectly well that it'd suffice to sink a dwarven dreadnought or a black ark and that deploying it in a river would leave nothing behind but scrap metal. In fact, now that I think about it, that's a motivation for Marienburg that I could believe: Something between "Are our calculations correct?" and "Look at what we can do." Heck, the timetable fits! If I was their military, I'd have started frantically looking for new harbor-defense solutions the instant we poached Asarnil. This is about the right timeframe for R&D to have borne fruit.
How is that unrelatd? It's a solid argument that Marienburg could've totally pulled it off without anyone else putting their hands in, and it also gives a solid baseline for how much would be necessary to do this damage.
Heh, I was mostly looking at the discussion about Mathilde's emotional history. Unrelated to that. :p

edit:
If Marienburg has a lot of these things Barak Varr might have a harder time destroying Marienburg's docks then we thought. It actually might be good thing that we are finding out about them now. Rather then when dreadnoughts sink.
Lol, esshin everywhere :p
 
Last edited:
Totally unrelated to the current discussion: I got nerd sniped by something way back around the update. I don't think that it actually affects the vote, but I thought it was interesting, so /shrug
So, after reading a bit, it seems the method you described for "breaking a ships back" is a fairly modern technique and likely centuries ahead of what Marienburg would be able to use, it seems that ships surviving multiple impacts was the norm instead of sinking rapidly after a single hit, and those were of course shoddy ships that had nothing on a proper dwarf river monitor.

if we are going to worry about them having that kind of underwater weapon, we might as well worry about their use of stealth bombers or surface to air missiles.
 
Last edited:
Of course if you know the mines are there they are not all that hard to counter. Just send in a bunch of unmaned cheap boats first. Dwarfs might not have "cheap" boats but this would be a combined empire/Karez Ankor mission. The empire would likely be happy to provide a bunch of shoody boats.

"Look at what we can do."
If that was part of the motivation then they don't understand how dwarfs think at all.
 
This analysis, of course, raises an interesting question. Why did the bandits deploy a warhead that was such complete overkill? They knew that the monitor was coming; they were literally lined up on the shore waiting for it to get hit. They clearly didn't expect it to sink, though, given the way they cleared out shortly thereafter. Furthermore, you don't make money by killing people; you make money by robbing people, and you can't rob people when their cargo is on the bottom of a river. The bandits probably intended to damage the ship to intimidate it or force it to shore. This is even more extreme given that they hit a dwarven monitor, the single most durable thing on that river; anything else would've hit the river-bottom in multiple pieces. What led to the deployment of that bomb?
Accidental overcompetence. Marienburg could've tried to warn/intimidate the dwarfs (not realising that's not how dwarfs work), but it went off too hard and basically ensured a war.
 
So, after reading a bit, it seems the method you described for "breaking a ships back" is a fairly modern technique and likely centuries ahead of what Marienburg would be able to use, it seems that ships surviving multiple impacts was the norm instead of sinking rapidly after a single hit, and those were of course shoddy ships that had nothing on a proper dwarf river monitor.
The bottleneck on the technique's application was the development of the proximity fuze, which required electronics. Magic, particularly maritime-specialized Celestial magic, would be far more reliable, practicable, and straighforward. Literally a one-shot Detect Object set to "boat within 10 meters Y/N?". It probably would've taken very, very few tests to figure out the best use once the fuze was developed.
 
Of course if you know the mines are there they are not all that hard to counter. Just send in a bunch of unmaned cheap boats first. Dwarfs might not have "cheap" boats but this would be a combined empire/Karez Ankor mission. The empire would likely be happy to provide a bunch of shoody boats.


If that was part of the motivation then they don't understand how dwarfs think at all.
Would that be surprising? They're far from the typical dwarf holds, more aligned with an opposed faction, and even the empire often isn't quite sure how dwarfs work. The Chamberlain asked us for that exact reason. Marienburg doesn't have a comparable expert. They could ask a dwarf, but asking is a bit frought (how would you feel if we killed a bunch of dwarfs? It's possible to ask, but it takes some doing, and mostly involves not asking), and dwarfs, for all their reputed straightforwardness, have a lot of unsaid and deliberatly hidden complexities. And there won't be any high ranking dwarfs around to ask. I rather doubt the leaders of Marienburg would consult some rando of the street, even if he's got a thing for beards.

For a Merchant Prince dealing with another Merchant Prince, it makes sense, and Barak Varr are basically the Merchants of the Dwarfs. It would be an easy mistake to assume they think and react as you do.
 
The bottleneck on the technique's application was the development of the proximity fuze, which required electronics. Magic, particularly maritime-specialized Celestial magic, would be far more reliable, practicable, and straighforward. Literally a one-shot Detect Object set to "boat within 10 meters Y/N?". It probably would've taken very, very few tests to figure out the best use once the fuze was developed.
possible yes, I still think it's too far fetched to give anyone that level of magitek competence, other than the chaos dwarves that is.
 
The bottleneck on the technique's application was the development of the proximity fuze, which required electronics. Magic, particularly maritime-specialized Celestial magic, would be far more reliable, practicable, and straighforward. Literally a one-shot Detect Object set to "boat within 10 meters Y/N?". It probably would've taken very, very few tests to figure out the best use once the fuze was developed.
That's never going to be the sort of thing you can deploy en masse, tho, because of the problems inherent with trying to get celestial wizards of all people to crank out standardized enchantments, and permanent ones at that. It's definitely not scalable to defend an entire harbor.
 
Voting will open in 19 hours, 46 minutes
Back
Top