fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well I doubt that this a unified Marienburg directorate action. They likely have all sorts of internal factions that might think this was a good idea. A nice show of force.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That makes it sound like it'd be something Skaven or Chaos Dwarfs might have, too.
And I'm also reminded of the fact that the Chaos Dwarfs apparently were able to send Hobgoblins all the way to Altdorf. Via submarine insertions.
... Actually, I wonder if Marienburgers could hire a Chaos Dwarf submarine for this? Huh. That'd be a hell of a surprise, but. Would certainly be one hell of an interesting twist though.
...
It'd also make the Dawi ultra mad.
Well, we know the Skaven have electricity... Though probably not electronics.
Hmm. Some kind of daemonic item being able to mimic similar things, would not feel out of place though. Wonder if that's more the Chaos Dwarf style or Skaven style.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I have a feeling that "Do this or we get invaded and you all die" is a pretty solid motivator. You also don't need a permanent enchantment; it only needs to be able to "go off" once. I wouldn't even be surprised if it's a variant on Mathilde's Mystical Matrix. And even if it is difficult to build - that's just even more motivation to stick it on a big enough bomb to sink anything that floats.
That said, I agree that daemonsmithing could also do the job. I agree with the current winning vote: Finding a part of this bomb that we can inspect is absolutely top priority. Undoubtedly more likely to lead us to the perpetrators than the bandits themselves are.
Last edited:
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We know that theirs a family of Dwarves on Marienburg's Directorate.
Making it highly unlikely that they'd hire Dawi-Zharr, though not impossible if sections of the Directorate did it anyway without the consent of the rest.
I'm going to be amused if the answer turns out to be something monster-related rather than technology-rated, after all this speculating. Like, maybe a Troll bomb set up to go off or something. That is, a Troll primed to explode somehow.
Or maybe the bandits were here to guide the torpedo or set off the bomb remotely, rather than it being a contact bomb. Maybe that's why they bailed. They were just there to make sure the bomb or torpedo went off by activating it or sending a signal or something.
Or maybe the bandits were here to guide the torpedo or set off the bomb remotely, rather than it being a contact bomb. Maybe that's why they bailed. They were just there to make sure the bomb or torpedo went off by activating it or sending a signal or something.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Does warhammer fantasy have any small demons? Imps and the like? I hear a lot about big demons, but not really about any small yet somewhat smart ones.
They might have just shot the bomb from the shore. That would explain the gunfire. Which I had thought seemed a bit odd considering how little effect gunfire would have on an armored ship like this. Much simpler then an enchantment as well.
Last edited:
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
I honestly still kinda want it to be orchestrated by some High Elf Noble who bought into their own hype and sought to create a second War of the Beard to distract from some kind of scandal or other political turmoil back home.
It would be dumb, reckless, completely out of the blue and quite possibly the most 2020 move possible.
It would be dumb, reckless, completely out of the blue and quite possibly the most 2020 move possible.
- Location
- Mexico
mmm the matrix, now that's an idea, stick it on a turtle and when the turtle sees a ship above it, it activates the mine.
but really, while in theory the magitek mines are possible, I think they are just too convoluted to be cost effective, you would need a minimum of 2 enchantments to make an effective deployment (one to detach the mine from the bottom, and one to detonate it at the right distance), and having 2 enchantments per mine, when in most cases a regular mine would work just as well, and you can deploy one hundred mines for each advanced mine just makes them a waste.
I can see the chaos dwarves using them tho, but not on mines, torpedoes since they actually have the submarines to make the right use of them, and the mentality to use advanced weapons to ensure victory.
Mathilde's books on the subject speak of Imps, the least powerful and smallest of daemons. They are often summoned by Sorcerers to serve as familiars or gifted to those that serve or amuse a Chaos God. They tend to be no taller than three feet or so.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
About the only way I could imagine her meeting her birth family again would be if some kid from it expressed magic. I imagine the college does keep records so someone would tell Mathilde 'BTW your grand niece is a wizard now'.
- Location
- Mexico
"The dwarfs are on the warpath your grandiose majesty"
"again? and they cannot be dissuaded? as painfully obstinate as they tend to be, they tell me they are not beyond reason when properly applied"
"we tried to scoff at them and to defuse the situation by showing them how inconsequential their petty concerns are, but to no avail"
*gaps*
"the gall! but surely ignoring them for a bit after that showed them the error of their ways?"
"the ambassador managed to fill his agenda for 2 weeks in advance, but they just raised their voice over the other petitioners"
*a courtesan visibly faints in the background*
"barbarians! well they leave us no other choice, inform the ambassador to try being condescending and offer them a book on how to uplift themselves, such as dwarf-beard cross-stitch or other such recreational activities, we give diplomacy one last try"
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
On the other hand, even when the QM attempts to telegraph "this was a very dangerous gambit," sometimes it doesn't work.
This case was pretty explicit, in that much of the update dwells on the risks Mathilde is taking (which we largely didn't consider as I recall) and the enormous toll it takes on her, leaving her more exhausted and ground-down than she's been in years.
And, well... let's just say that a lot of people wanted to go ahead anyway.
...
Also, it can be hard to have a quest protagonist engage in self-reflection that makes it clear whether their actions were worthwhile, without that self-reflection being interpreted as the QM criticizing the players or calling them stupid.
If your protagonist thinks "I was reckless and greedy," implicitly you are telling the voters that they were these things.
Last edited:
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Going by the votes: [1]"takes a small stone-like thing from her pocket and stares at it for a moment, before looking at the boat with an expression of worry and determination and deep tiredness" is something that could be added in there.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
I feel the need to emphasize that this is kind of comparing apples to oranges and that some of the axioms being taken for granted here simply do not exist. While I am not saying that this could not be the case, it is also not as likely as the information that has been presented would assume it to be.
Fundamental comparison breakdowns:
1. The damage caused by a torpedo is in part because it is an object with a frontal cross section of perhaps a square foot that could weigh up to several tons traveling at 60 knots. An explosion caused by a torpedo is made significantly worse by the fact that by the time a torpedo detonates, it's momentum has carried it through the outer hull and into the ship. An explosion inside of a ship is exponentially worse than one outside of it. During the carrier battles of the Second World War, a near miss was not really much better than a total miss. Japanese D3A1s carrying 250kg bombs which had about half of that in high explosive did no significant damage whatsoever on American carriers on near misses, even ones that were within a few meters of the ship.
2. Breaking the back of a ship is basically impossible to do intentionally in the context of the Second World War and certainly not in the context of mundane 16-17th century technology. While magnetic detonators began to see use in the conflict, they were absurdly unreliable for the most part. During the Narvik campaign, German submariners complained constantly about their magnetic detonators which was later discovered due to have been the different nature of the magnetic field at higher latitudes. This was not an exclusively German problem. Those who know of the sinking of the Bismarck may also know that the British air strike that jammed Bismarck's rudder was actually the second one flown that day. The first mistook the British Heavy Cruiser HMS Sheffield for the Bismarck and landed some hits... Which thankfully in this case did not detonate as their magnetic detonators flat out failed to function. Without a magnetic detonator, you literally just have to hope that your torpedo plays nice with the current and happens to hit near the keel of the ship, which is entirely a matter of luck. Even with a magnetic detonator which could explode a torpedo right as it passes under the keel, you are still taking for granted that you know the approximate draft of the ship which is going to significantly vary based on how much fuel, ammunition, etc are aboard, and you are still taking the gamble that the current will play nice with your torpedo depth setting. If the Moniter ran into a mine, it is unreasonable to assume that it hit in such a fantastically unlikely way that would have destroyed the keel. While it is marginally more likely for a mine to hit the keel of a ship all other things equal, it should be remembered that the margin for hitting a ship and not hitting a ship is extremely small in terms of depth and that putting a mine just tiny bit deeper in order to impact close to the keel, in the currents of the Skull River could just as much mean missing the ship entirely.
3. While many ships of that 1k ton to 2k ton displacement, were sunk by munitions of about the size of what could fit into a barrel, a great deal also survived equally grievous hits if not worse and destroyers are thoroughly optimized against survivability in favor of attributes like speed and armament, a totally opposite design philosophy to the Dwarves. Even then, it was extremely rare for a ship to sink as quickly as was described, with sinkings that swift being reserved basically for that situation where the keel is broken and the ship snaps in two, which were only perhaps 20% of all cases. Even then there are a handful of cases of just the frontal third or quarter of a destroyer being blown off and the rest of the destroyer managing to reverse the whole way back to port. As a further example of the total ineffectiveness of near misses, the Japanese Destroyer Ariake as part of the Tokyo Express to Guadalcanal suffered 6 near misses from what were presumably 1000 ilb bombs which are again about half that in High Explosives, and despite that, she was not sunk.
www.history.navy.mil
What this link is should be somewhat self explanatory, and I'll outline the relevant parts here. I am including the losses at Pearl Harbor, but am only counting Torpedo exclusively caused losses or Torpedo and gunfire caused losses.
10 Destroyers sank under those circumstances, but 3 survived to be repaired! Among the sunken destroyers include ships that were scuttled, and also those that did not sink for many hours or even days afterwards.
The most gratuitous edge case I can think of is that of the USS Laffey, which although not impacted with an underwater form of weaponry, survived 4 bombs of up to 500kgs and 6 kamikaze aircraft, and successfully returned to port to be repaired.
A Dwarven monitor would surely be much more inclined towards survivability especially a passenger monitor, than any destroyer ever built by human hands.
Barring a truly unprecedented intervention by Ranald(which is admittedly theoretically possible; see the effect of Italian limpet mines on British battleships after the Raid on Alexandria), it is simply too unlikely in my mind that a conventional explosive deployed in a conventional manner could take down a Dwarven Monitor so quickly that only some 20 Dwarves were able to get to shore.
Fundamental comparison breakdowns:
1. The damage caused by a torpedo is in part because it is an object with a frontal cross section of perhaps a square foot that could weigh up to several tons traveling at 60 knots. An explosion caused by a torpedo is made significantly worse by the fact that by the time a torpedo detonates, it's momentum has carried it through the outer hull and into the ship. An explosion inside of a ship is exponentially worse than one outside of it. During the carrier battles of the Second World War, a near miss was not really much better than a total miss. Japanese D3A1s carrying 250kg bombs which had about half of that in high explosive did no significant damage whatsoever on American carriers on near misses, even ones that were within a few meters of the ship.
2. Breaking the back of a ship is basically impossible to do intentionally in the context of the Second World War and certainly not in the context of mundane 16-17th century technology. While magnetic detonators began to see use in the conflict, they were absurdly unreliable for the most part. During the Narvik campaign, German submariners complained constantly about their magnetic detonators which was later discovered due to have been the different nature of the magnetic field at higher latitudes. This was not an exclusively German problem. Those who know of the sinking of the Bismarck may also know that the British air strike that jammed Bismarck's rudder was actually the second one flown that day. The first mistook the British Heavy Cruiser HMS Sheffield for the Bismarck and landed some hits... Which thankfully in this case did not detonate as their magnetic detonators flat out failed to function. Without a magnetic detonator, you literally just have to hope that your torpedo plays nice with the current and happens to hit near the keel of the ship, which is entirely a matter of luck. Even with a magnetic detonator which could explode a torpedo right as it passes under the keel, you are still taking for granted that you know the approximate draft of the ship which is going to significantly vary based on how much fuel, ammunition, etc are aboard, and you are still taking the gamble that the current will play nice with your torpedo depth setting. If the Moniter ran into a mine, it is unreasonable to assume that it hit in such a fantastically unlikely way that would have destroyed the keel. While it is marginally more likely for a mine to hit the keel of a ship all other things equal, it should be remembered that the margin for hitting a ship and not hitting a ship is extremely small in terms of depth and that putting a mine just tiny bit deeper in order to impact close to the keel, in the currents of the Skull River could just as much mean missing the ship entirely.
3. While many ships of that 1k ton to 2k ton displacement, were sunk by munitions of about the size of what could fit into a barrel, a great deal also survived equally grievous hits if not worse and destroyers are thoroughly optimized against survivability in favor of attributes like speed and armament, a totally opposite design philosophy to the Dwarves. Even then, it was extremely rare for a ship to sink as quickly as was described, with sinkings that swift being reserved basically for that situation where the keel is broken and the ship snaps in two, which were only perhaps 20% of all cases. Even then there are a handful of cases of just the frontal third or quarter of a destroyer being blown off and the rest of the destroyer managing to reverse the whole way back to port. As a further example of the total ineffectiveness of near misses, the Japanese Destroyer Ariake as part of the Tokyo Express to Guadalcanal suffered 6 near misses from what were presumably 1000 ilb bombs which are again about half that in High Explosives, and despite that, she was not sunk.
Summary of War Damage to U. S. Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers and Destroyers 17 October, 1941 to 7 December, 1942
NAVSHIPS A (374) SUMMARY OF WAR DAMAGE TO U. S. BATTLESHIPS, CARRIERS, CRUISERS AND DESTROYERS 17 OCTOBER, 1941 TO 7 DECEMBER, 1942 Preliminary Design Section Bureau of Ships Navy Department 15 September, 1943
What this link is should be somewhat self explanatory, and I'll outline the relevant parts here. I am including the losses at Pearl Harbor, but am only counting Torpedo exclusively caused losses or Torpedo and gunfire caused losses.
10 Destroyers sank under those circumstances, but 3 survived to be repaired! Among the sunken destroyers include ships that were scuttled, and also those that did not sink for many hours or even days afterwards.
The most gratuitous edge case I can think of is that of the USS Laffey, which although not impacted with an underwater form of weaponry, survived 4 bombs of up to 500kgs and 6 kamikaze aircraft, and successfully returned to port to be repaired.
A Dwarven monitor would surely be much more inclined towards survivability especially a passenger monitor, than any destroyer ever built by human hands.
Barring a truly unprecedented intervention by Ranald(which is admittedly theoretically possible; see the effect of Italian limpet mines on British battleships after the Raid on Alexandria), it is simply too unlikely in my mind that a conventional explosive deployed in a conventional manner could take down a Dwarven Monitor so quickly that only some 20 Dwarves were able to get to shore.
Last edited:
Dwarven in the sense of the race, or dwarven in the sense of the culture of Karaz Ankor? I can't really see Karaz Ankor dwarfs doing well as a merchant family in Marienburg, though that might be buying too much into dwarf stereotypes.
The former, though a lot of their money comes from trade with Dwarfholds so it's reasonable to conclude they'd be aware of the culture of the Karaz Ankor, even if they were no longer part of it.
Surface dwarfs are defined by rejecting many of the socio-cultural norms of Karaz Ankor, the more integrated into human cities the greater the cleavage. That said there is some cultural overlap to even the most independent of surfce clans since without the rites of Valaya for instance they would have long since turned to stone.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Hey @BoneyM out of curiosity, is there any sort of equivalent to the game of Russian Roulette in the Old World? Because that really seems like a perfect way to describe what we just did if anyone asks or we have a reason to describe it. Russian Roulette of the soul, where every life we saved was another pull of the trigger. Good thing we worship a god of luck and gambling, huh?
- Location
- Sweden
Seeing as Mathilde's loyalty is foremost to the Empire than her college. With the dawi as the oldest allies and the whole Sigmar pact thing. Id say those Grays has done goofed as it could be argued they're putting the Empire at risk or not following its creed.
I can't think of anything to fit the bill.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Huh. Shame. Would have thought the Kislevites might have something at least, since they're the Russia expy. I guess guns are still rather new for people to be coming up with suicide games though.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Two things occur to me.
One, what other race could we have asked to put up a massive moon-shade in the dark, on no notice, using scavenged materials at maximum speed, and nevertheless be a absolutely confident that nothing short of enemy action could cause that shade to fail?
Second, all this speculation about IRL naval explosives, as cool as it is, is moot unless Boney did a similar amount of research. Which is possible, but given that this is a fantasy quest and not an alt-history quest, certainly not guaranteed.
One, what other race could we have asked to put up a massive moon-shade in the dark, on no notice, using scavenged materials at maximum speed, and nevertheless be a absolutely confident that nothing short of enemy action could cause that shade to fail?
Second, all this speculation about IRL naval explosives, as cool as it is, is moot unless Boney did a similar amount of research. Which is possible, but given that this is a fantasy quest and not an alt-history quest, certainly not guaranteed.
Me and my Stephen Maturin dakimakura plead the fifth.