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In regards to Mathilda's old family.. it has been discussed before. She visit her old vilage, saw the old headvillage and move on.

That is one hell of a closure. She did not take revenge, but she did not waste her time or tears wondering what could have or trying to rebuild her relationship.

They are no longer an entitiy on her life. Even before she gets this powerfull.

Thats what i like about magister mathilda, her ability to bounce up from trauma and her willingness to smile and keep on living.
 
They will intuitively understand the danger she was facing but not why in doing so. The fact that she risked her life makes her feat more impressive. It will also mean that the news spreads much faster and further than should be normally possible. On top of that it's required for the Karak Dum expedition where it will help tremendously to smooth over any issues with the Karak Dum Dwarves.

There's no known hard numbers to this but think of it as being a multiple to the reputation and favour gain and potentially opening doors that didn't exist before at all. It's a godly artifact of immense power, the change in outcome is unlikely to be trivial.

I have to admit I don't quite see how it will help with the Karak Dum expedition now we've negotiated safe passage most of the way there.
 
Hunh... came across an interesting note while reading the Warhammer wiki, and was surprised to do a search and not to see the idea mentioned here.

Given how we've seen AV recharging anvil runes, I've been wondering wonder if it could do the same for other runic equipment. Before, this had been me wondering about the great works of the ancestor gods, but now I'm wondering if it also applies to things such as old dwarven weapons that have lost much of their power. And it occurs to me that there is one particular weapon Mathilde would definitely know and who's legends are notably much greater than what it can accomplish in the modern day, though whether she'd put that second fact together is beyond me.

Now, actually getting access to that weapon, especially for a magical experiment, sounds like a challenge and a half, but if there were a proof of concept first...

Could Aetheric Vitae recharge the Ghal Maraz?
 
I have to admit I don't quite see how it will help with the Karak Dum expedition now we've negotiated safe passage most of the way there.

Should Karak Dum still exist and not be a hole in the ground but a fully fledged fortress it will make telling them to evacuate much easier. As they will believe we're doing it entirely out of selfless desire to protect them. I think it will also help smooth over any of their presumably not inconsiderable reticence to believe that any one could be out to help them given the schism in the runelords.

That they were ignored and left to die is probably going to be a serious source of anger and resentment if they're still around, if they gone radical in another way and split from the Karaz-Ankor but still exist this will also have them not treating Mathilde as an extension of them.
 
I have to admit I don't quite see how it will help with the Karak Dum expedition now we've negotiated safe passage most of the way there.

It's a contingency against a very bad case scenario where we have to engineer a change in command, but is otherwise a general difficulty smoother-over, because it ensures out antics are looked on well instead of with suspicion.


Hunh... came across an interesting note while reading the Warhammer wiki, and was surprised to do a search and not to see the idea mentioned here.

Given how we've seen AV recharging anvil runes, I've been wondering wonder if it could do the same for other runic equipment. Before, this had been me wondering about the great works of the ancestor gods, but now I'm wondering if it also applies to things such as old dwarven weapons that have lost much of their power. And it occurs to me that there is one particular weapon Mathilde would definitely know and who's legends are notably much greater than what it can accomplish in the modern day, though whether she'd put that second fact together is beyond me.

Now, actually getting access to that weapon, especially for a magical experiment, sounds like a challenge and a half, but if there were a proof of concept first...

Could Aetheric Vitae recharge the Ghal Maraz?

Ghal Maraz works just fine, that it's "Merely" one of the most powerful weapons ever made is simply a factor of "Ghal Maraz wielded by Sigmar himself is not the same as Ghal Maraz wielded by someone else"
 
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Should Karak Dum still exist and not be a hole in the ground but a fully fledged fortress it will make telling them to evacuate much easier. As they will believe we're doing it entirely out of selfless desire to protect them. I think it will also help smooth over any of their presumably not inconsiderable reticence to believe that any one could be out to help them given the schism in the runelords.

That they were ignored and left to die is probably going to be a serious source of anger and resentment if they're still around, if they gone radical in another way and split from the Karaz-Ankor but still exist this will also have them not treating Mathilde as an extension of them.

Hmm. Does the Protector do that? It makes sure they're aware of and changes how they perceive direct actions taken to protect them, so if we kill a bunch of chaos marauders infiltrating the hold, they'll know about it even if they don't see it. I'm not sure it changes how they perceive things like Mathilde talking to them.
 
Hmm. Does the Protector do that? It makes sure they're aware of and changes how they perceive direct actions taken to protect them, so if we kill a bunch of chaos marauders infiltrating the hold, they'll know about it even if they don't see it. I'm not sure it changes how they perceive things like Mathilde talking to them.

Hmm... I might be over egging this now that you question what I've said but I think that's what BoneyM has said about it in the past. We've never really tested it to see though this turn would be the first test fire and I can't think of a better time really.

Plus this will tell us if it's worth using protector when doing the Elf cation or whether we should go with Gambler on it.
 
Hmm. Does the Protector do that? It makes sure they're aware of and changes how they perceive direct actions taken to protect them, so if we kill a bunch of chaos marauders infiltrating the hold, they'll know about it even if they don't see it. I'm not sure it changes how they perceive things like Mathilde talking to them.

Yes, it does, it makes her look selfless when doing it.
 
The text we get when we're picking coin faces. :V

Convincing them to evacuate would be acting in a way that tries to defend them from a danger we didn't commit. They will become aware of all the work we've put into the expedition to make it succeed and will believe that everything we did was with their safety in mind. So.... Yea? :V

It might not make it easier to get them to leave but it'll remove any suspicion that she has alterior motives.
 
So if we were to use the Protector Coin while saving a bunch of Skaven, they would all think that we are an inscrutable alien?
Oh, now... now that would be interesting.

The coin is explicitly able to work with fake identities.


At a guess, I'd say that the Skaven in question would chalk it up to a concussion or full blown brain-damage of some kind?
 
Convincing them to evacuate would be acting in a way that tries to defend them from a danger we didn't commit. They will become aware of all the work we've put into the expedition to make it succeed and will believe that everything we did was with their safety in mind. So.... Yea? :V

It might not make it easier to get them to leave but it'll remove any suspicion that she has alterior motives.

Very interested to see how much heavy lifting the protector is going to be doing on this upcoming vacation into hell, yeah haha.

It'll be neat to bump up against the limitations of it since we haven't done anything with it at all. Figuring out if it's stuff like "Well technically Belegar hired the mercenaries with his money, so you don't get credit for Arsanil, but hey you brought all those wizards along of their own free will because they're journeying, so you get that!" or just the whole lot being chocked up into the list, or even if like Indirect Aid doesn't matter to it and we get nothing.
 
I think the idea is to use it while disguised as a Skaven.
Can you imagine the confusion?
Are Skaven even consciously aware that many surface dwellers are actually capable of truly selfless acts? Or do they, if they think about it at all, mostly just think that "selfless" people are actually just enacting dumb and inefficient plans to get power through status and it only works because their fellow surface dwellers are usually also dumb enough to think that they can rely on the "selfless" people to continue that strategy if they give them enough positive reinforcement?
 
Huh. If it does turn out to be a high level Marienburg plot then they're going to go Slayer because of the shame in not being able to prevent it when they were right there, aren't they?

Depends on them. Dwarf culture doesn't really have a way to directly force the issue if someone doesn't want to, even if they 'should'. And them living in Marienburg instead of the Karaz Ankor would mean they're removed from most of the soft pressure too.
 
The dwarven merchant clans of Barak Varr are, IIRC, notorious for playing just as hard (and by implication, dirty) as their human rivals in Marienberg.



If you can get the explosive into precisely the right place, you don't need that much easier of the explosives.

Getting the explosives beneath a ship and getting them to go off at the right time is the very very hard, requiring sophisticated detonators and the ability to control the depth of the mine. That's why we've been talking about detonators and tethers, and the difficulties involved in making and deploying them. You basically need early to mid twentieth century technology to make something that will work automatically, and mid to late nineteenth century tech to make something that can be triggered by a remote command for this kind of mine. Otherwise you end up with something that blows up next to the ship; not beneath the ship, which then needs the vastly more powerful explosives we moved on to talk about to sink the ship.

This is a generally renaissance setting. I don't believe Marienberg has nineteenth century technology.
There's a third scenario, though even more difficult - a diver intercepting the boat and manually attaching the bomb to the hull. That'd also produce sufficient yield, except:
-The required bomb is FAR heavier than what a human could swim with. As in out-masses the diver. Not impossible for a vampire.
-The water of full of piranha
-The dwarves are not blind and attaching a bomb is not very quiet or a normal sound.

Why is hit rate correlated to size?
Cross sectional size templates, The bigger the target the easier to hit even if your trajectory is not perfectly straight due to water currents. Remember, small errors in angle produce large deviations when accelerated for torpedoes.
There's two different types of technological advancement. One is incremental inventions that can't happen in very different orders or time frames, requiring specific materials, advancements in industry and prior tools and such. The other are advancements that have had all necessary tools available for quite some time, but had no one think of it yet. This particular one seems like the latter while stealth bombers and surface to air missiles are decidedly in the former.
This really is not the latter.
Its like saying you could use a musket to shoot down a low flying plane.
Your tool, if perfectly employed by the best possible user in the best possible way, cannot hit the target by any means other than pure blind luck, it does not have the necessary precision.

It requires specific innovations in mechanical engineering, material sciences and chemistry to create the possibility of performing such a hit, then you need further innovations to make it anything other than a one off superweapon because its too expensive in skilled manpower to make every single component.

THEN you can develop the tactics needed to use it effectively.

The key developments:
-Explosive yield - Gunpowder is too low. It COULD theoretically work on a fixed target given unlimited setup time, but its bulk per unit bang, its sensitivity to water, its consistency and how said consistency would deviate the larger the quantity employed. You'd be better off with multiple smaller charges

-Delivery mechanism - The explosive must be brought up to the target undetected. The larger the charge the more difficult this is. Several hundred kilos of gunpowder would be very difficult to deliver. A few kilos of warpstone would be easier to deliver of course.

-Trigger mechanism - The window for an effective(disregarding ideal) strike is less than five minutes, you're dealing with a fastmoving river and a fast moving ship. The trigger must either be manually operated, or be able to detect the ship, or be divination level perfectly timed to achieve this. Noting that the river is a very noisy environment which could prematurely engage a large variety of possible triggers. Enchanted, runic, or engineering masterworks may achieve this without the necessary tech base, but those are effort intensive, unreliably created and unique configurations, you wouldn't use it on something like this.


Everything is much easier if you use warpstone for everything though
 
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Are Skaven even consciously aware that many surface dwellers are actually capable of truly selfless acts? Or do they, if they think about it at all, mostly just think that "selfless" people are actually just enacting dumb and inefficient plans to get power through status and it only works because their fellow surface dwellers are usually also dumb enough to think that they can rely on the "selfless" people to continue that strategy if they give them enough positive reinforcement?

I think that Skaven are aware of selflessness, at least subconciously. We already know that their social behaviour is mostly trained, not inborn, so I would not be surprised if a lot of young Skaven tried that selflessness thing once, then ended up beaten, enslaved or eaten for it. Other young Skaven see this and learn that selflessness is stupid. So when Skaven see surface dwellers acting selflessly, they look down on them for being weak and stupid, but they might know that they are acting selflessly, depending on the individual.
 
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[ ] The Protector
When you act in a way that defends an individual or group from a danger that you did not cause, they will become aware of what you have done and will believe you acted selflessly in doing so.
@BoneyM How does this effect interact with Destruction factions infighting? If we kill some warlord that is currently in a feud with another warlord, what does the second guy's faction "learn" about us, provided they didn't even know about our existence? Or for that matter, what if they knew about our existence as a Human/Imperial agent currently harassing their local enemy? How would "believe you acted selflessly" translate then?

Cross sectional size templates, The bigger the target the easier to hit even if your trajectory is not perfectly straight due to water currents. Remember, small errors in angle produce large deviations when accelerated for torpedoes.
I meant for a mine. Why would a mine that is expected to have a smaller chance to hit have a smaller yield than one with a near guaranteed projected
This really is not the latter.
Its like saying you could use a musket to shoot down a low flying plane.
Your tool, if perfectly employed by the best possible user in the best possible way, cannot hit the target by any means other than pure blind luck, it does not have the necessary precision.

It requires specific innovations in mechanical engineering, material sciences and chemistry to create the possibility of performing such a hit, then you need further innovations to make it anything other than a one off superweapon because its too expensive in skilled manpower to make every single component.

THEN you can develop the tactics needed to use it effectively.
I must have misunderstood then. I thought "breaking the back" of a ship was about where you target it and that the advancement would be about making a remote controlled (or in WHF magically triggered) mine that waits till the ship is above it instead of just touching it.
hit chance?

The key developments:
-Explosive yield - Gunpowder is too low. It COULD theoretically work on a fixed target given unlimited setup time, but its bulk per unit bang, its sensitivity to water, its consistency and how said consistency would deviate the larger the quantity employed.

-Delivery mechanism - The explosive must be brought up to the target undetected. The larger the charge the more difficult this is. Several hundred kilos of gunpowder would be very difficult to deliver. A few kilos of warpstone would be easier to deliver of course.

-Trigger mechanism - The window for an effective(disregarding ideal) strike is less than five minutes, you're dealing with a fastmoving river and a fast moving ship. The trigger must either be manually operated, or be able to detect the ship, or be divination level perfectly timed to achieve this. Noting that the river is a very noisy environment which could prematurely engage a large variety of possible triggers. Enchanted, runic, or engineering masterworks may achieve this without the necessary tech base, but those are effort intensive, unreliably created and unique configurations, you wouldn't use it on something like this.
First I must admit that I know nothing of explosion related engineering. So I trusted Vebyast in his assessment of how much yield is needed and how difficult it is to place such a mine in a river.

Regarding the trigger though, to my knowledge it should be as cheap as 0.5 CF per bomb fuze from a Gold Magister, or the equivalent in whatever currency a Marienburg Chamon Mage accepts. All you need is a delayed "Stoke the Forge" X seconds after whatever thing with a very large Chamon presence floats into detection range. And the delay can also be done chemically or mechanically if using just magic is too complex. Sure, a bomb where just the fuze costs ~50gp isn't cheap, but it would be an okay investment if the mission is deemed important enough.
 
They knew a monitor had to be coming. There's probably semi-regular monitor trips going between the canal and Barak Varr.
Actually, that brings something to mind: @BoneyM, was it the first monitor in the convoy that went down?

Actually, having that ability is not a grudging... it does mean that no (gold?) wizard will be ever allowed near any Dwarf dwarfhold again tho.
Well, no, Boney has stated that the Dwarfs finding out about those two spells would result in trade immediately ceasing between the Empire and the Dwarfs.
 
@BoneyM How does this effect interact with Destruction factions infighting? If we kill some warlord that is currently in a feud with another warlord, what does the second guy's faction "learn" about us, provided they didn't even know about our existence? Or for that matter, what if they knew about our existence as a Human/Imperial agent currently harassing their local enemy? How would "believe you acted selflessly" translate then?

They'd have an unattached 'some mysterious stranger saved us' floating around in their brain until you gave them reason to connect that to you. How they'd reconcile selflessness into a personal view of the world that doesn't include that concept is unknown and would require testing.

Actually, that brings something to mind: @BoneyM, was it the first monitor in the convoy that went down?

Yes.
 
Actually, that brings something to mind: @BoneyM, was it the first monitor in the convoy that went down?


Well, no, Boney has stated that the Dwarfs finding out about those two spells would result in trade immediately ceasing between the Empire and the Dwarfs.

Still, not a grudging.

Are Skaven even consciously aware that many surface dwellers are actually capable of truly selfless acts? Or do they, if they think about it at all, mostly just think that "selfless" people are actually just enacting dumb and inefficient plans to get power through status and it only works because their fellow surface dwellers are usually also dumb enough to think that they can rely on the "selfless" people to continue that strategy if they give them enough positive reinforcement?

No, actually, if they think about it at all mostly just think that "selfless" people-things are actually just enacting dumb-stupid and inefficient plans to get power through status and it only works-works because their fellow surface dwellers are usually also dumb-stupid enough to think that they can rely on the "selfless" people-things to continue that strategy-planning if they give them enough positive reinforcement, yes-yes
 
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On the whole "how they done it?" angle, I'm leaning towards @Sturmi here. The thing about breaking the bat boat is that it sounds very much like a bending moment on the likely solid steel keel of these things, and solid steel is hecking choking good at that kind of thing.

Furthermore, it doesn't sound unlike what you'd simply face in absurdly rough seas. It's simply attempting to toss the ship up and let it break under momentums it was never intended to support but... it kind of looks like the exact kind of momentum that are taken for granted?

So unless you've blown the keel off to let the entire thing fold (assuming dwarfs aren't using some other method which doesn't put all the stress on it). Because look at this:
That's just the usual movement of the sea, and it can absolutely cause the kind of stresses that are supposed to break the bat:

So it's just a matter of how rough the waters are, and at some point they are going to be lifting whole parts of and slapping it down.

So it comes down to a question of "how overbuilt are these things?". If it's supposed to be able to get tossed and turned in a storm, you'd be better off blowing the entire thing up than trying to lift it and deal significant damage that way.

And if you don't want to bet on them not being overbuilt enough, then you need some sort of advanced boom-making device to take the ability to sustain that sort of stress out of its hands.*

*Presuming that's how you intend to try and sink it. If you want to just slow it down you can try opening a lot of big holes along the waterline. Do it enough and it tends to work :V

So either this was someone who wanted to slow them down enough for them to be taken or just harassed by the ground troups and then got massively lucky, breaking the ship's keel so that it broke itself with just a little explosive incentive, or it's someone with serious technological know-how to have the chemistry and engineering to put together the sort of bomb that can take this out in one go.
 
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