Sure but that would require Belegar to make a formal position of 'person in charge of wizards' and dwarfs do not change their laws on a scale of months. Panormia would have no formal authority, no informal clout, no legs to stand on.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Sure but that would require Belegar to make a formal position of 'person in charge of wizards' and dwarfs do not change their laws on a scale of months. Panormia would have no formal authority, no informal clout, no legs to stand on.
Resonant
Procrastinator Supreme
I feel like everyone's getting side-tracked here: it doesn't matter how much Prestige or what Panoramia's rank is if Belegar appoints her as the Wizard Wrangler Liason for K8P.
Any visiting Wizard and the current Ducklings would generally be okay with working under Panoramia's jurisdiction as a subset of Belegar's authority. Wizards aren't obligated to follow her orders but they'd be breaking Dwarven regulation and be unwelcome to stay within K8P territory. How is that complicated?
Any visiting Wizard and the current Ducklings would generally be okay with working under Panoramia's jurisdiction as a subset of Belegar's authority. Wizards aren't obligated to follow her orders but they'd be breaking Dwarven regulation and be unwelcome to stay within K8P territory. How is that complicated?
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Not to directly contradict this, but we haven't actually looked- and you are assuming that anything we haven't seen doesn't exist. We don't actually know what her rep is, we don't really know what connections she has been creating, I don't think we even know enough to say that she isn't particularly charismatic- we've never seen her in a situation where she isn't playing second fiddle to Mathilde, because the vast majority of both of their work has occurred out of the awareness of the other.
We do know her character sheet is out of date.
IDK, this whole bit just seems really protagonist-centered, in that it dismisses anything that wasn't in the spotlight as unimportant.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Thats a difference of interpretation.
To my mind, he clearly, explicitly assigned those duties to us, his Loremaster. It was an executive decision, as there is obviously no precedent in Dwarven law. He could ratify any deputy the same way.
That's distinct from whether that deputy is a good choice, and how easy they would find the wizard-wrangling.
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- Location
- Finland
Belegar lives pretty solidly in the kickflip zone these days, he is perfectly capable of assigning someone a wizard wrangler on nothing but his sayso.
Wther he will, depends largely on wether Mathilde chooses to suggest it, but the ability of Belegar to do so is not in quesion.
- Location
- Greece
Belegar HAS a formal position for "person in charge of wizard". Loremaster. All of Dawi tradition of Dawi wrangling wizards (all few years of it
) implies that the Loremaster is the one responsible for wrangling them. Thus the Loremaster also has the right to delegate that authority, or to appoint a temp, of course, all barring objections from Belegar.Edit: and if you think that the Dawi do not commit the de facto into the de juro, then Mathilde shouldn't be a Thane.
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I mean... I was joking, but from a kings point of view, the wizard with active investments .(e.g a home) is the one belegar can theoretically Trust the most to have the realms best interest at heart.
Kind of the reason 'land' and titles are the go-to reward for kings. Tie the person the heath of the authority that gives there land rights and privileges meaning.
so if its belegarquest that's picking who to fill in, won't Gretal make the most sense? from what they know about the loremasters underlings?
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We do know what she has been doing, we know she has deliberately distanced herself from the Jade College because she does not want to deal with religious drama. Being a hermit does not high reputation make. Mathilde ha been getting a lot o use out of that Gyrocopter, Panoramia not so.
The thing is Panoramia is not equipped nor I think trusted to be the loremaster of the Karak. I d not think there is precedent for formally delegating part of our tasks that come with no official title.
That is a fair point, though wizards would likely still assume Pan got hr job by nepotism. Still that is hardly unheard of in the Empire.
- Location
- Earth
The resolution to this issue is simple. No wizards in the Karak, no need for a wizard-wrangler! We can sidestep this question very easily by recruiting all of them. 
- Location
- Finland
Why would they assume nepotism?
Mathilde's few attempts at romance are so far fairly lowkey and there is no reason to assume any new magister coming in would be aware of them.
I think Pan has so far shown herself pretty solid and reliable wizard, has been with Belegar from the beginning, and is in large part responsible for making sure people can eat.
If you can't trust her, you are in deep, deep trouble.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
There is a difference between trusting a person to tend your crops, and trusting a person to tend to people.
- Location
- Finland
And this was about comparing Pan and Gretel, has Gretel shown any talent at tending people?
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Just to note, Panoramia has effective authority over basically the entire surface of K8P, primarily the caldera and eastern valley. She is the one who has been running large, long-term public works projects for the Karak already. She is also the one who would be stomping over to ream out any foolish wizard who decided that one empty patch of ground was much like another and threw around a bunch of magic on it.
It feels like people are arguing she doesn't have or doesn't deserve the position she's already effectively in.
It feels like people are arguing she doesn't have or doesn't deserve the position she's already effectively in.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on the other parts of your post, but part of reputation is... other people hearing about it. If we don't know what it is, and nobody's mentioned it to us, then by definition it's not that high; the measure of highness is us hearing about it, to be tautological.
Because she is a journeyman of no particular repute being at least formally put in charge of even visiting magisters of other colleges yet. That is a lot of power to drop in the hands of someone who has never had any responsibilities of that nature
That feels a bit like saying the gardener should be in charge of Versailles because the gardens are extensive. The parts of the Karak with epople in it are more important than raw surface area
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- Location
- Finland
And Mathilde was a spymaster.
Magisters whose assumption is that a a dwarf king gave a position of authority to someone (not of their clan/family) due to nepotism, instead of years of proven service, are probbably people we wan't to keep away from dwarves.
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I'm not sure your, logic, is as water tight as you think it is.
Maybe nobody mentioned it to us because it was not some huge event, we have been here for years, Pan has had plenty of time to build a solid rep and connections without us noticing, because unlike what we might pretend to the ducklings, we are not actually all knowing.
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- Location
- Greece
I dunno, I am pretty sure the gardener would have done a better job than several of the kings.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I feel it's more like we have heard of it, but the project updates at the duckling club aren't getting translated to dwarf favor or college favor numbers in people's heads. I would say successful iconoclasts do tend to develop followings, especially if they hermit a bit and allow others to interpret and embellish, like what I *suspect* is happening in the Jade college. After all, look at how proud the Golds are of participating- someone is using Panoramia's work on creating an ecosystem from nothing as a big rhetorical stick in Jade college debates, I almost guarantee it.
I mean yes, dwarfs are hardly a meritocracy. They are perfectionists sure and better that humans at several arts and crafts, but their mentality breeds nepotism.
- Location
- Finland
Like, Mathilde would not be my first go to person for wrangling people, wizards or otherwise.
But here we are, a loremaster and wizard wrangler to a dwarven king, largely on the strength of us being great and killing things.
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And we absolutely need to keep any wizard stupid enough to even imply that as far away from the dorfs as we can, because holy shit is that a landmine we don't want anyone putting their foot in.
But here we are, a loremaster and wizard wrangler to a dwarven king, largely on the strength of us being great and killing things.
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Possibly.
And we absolutely need to keep any wizard stupid enough to even imply that as far away from the dorfs as we can, because holy shit is that a landmine we don't want anyone putting their foot in.
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- Location
- Earth
Well, sounds like Belegar knows what's important in dealing with wizards
None of the remaining wizards are good substitute wizard wranglers because they're bound by College traditions to respect Magisters, particularly Magisters of their own order. Sure a temporary Loremaster position would give them legal backing but:
- even a dwarf as radical as Belegar would likely view a couple months as too temporary
- snubbing a more senior wizard in good standing will be taken as a black mark back in Altdorf if the more senior wizard wants to press the point
Mathilde was different in that she was a full Magister who got the Loremaster position after proving herself as a war hero. Her formal authority was in synergy with the informal clout.
In all fairness that's a big part of how medieval nobles got to be nobles in the first place at least for first generation nobility. Considering Mathilde's record as a commander, assassin and living WMD (the last in conjunction with Gazul) she earned her clout many times over.
- even a dwarf as radical as Belegar would likely view a couple months as too temporary
- snubbing a more senior wizard in good standing will be taken as a black mark back in Altdorf if the more senior wizard wants to press the point
Mathilde was different in that she was a full Magister who got the Loremaster position after proving herself as a war hero. Her formal authority was in synergy with the informal clout.
In all fairness that's a big part of how medieval nobles got to be nobles in the first place at least for first generation nobility. Considering Mathilde's record as a commander, assassin and living WMD (the last in conjunction with Gazul) she earned her clout many times over.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Okay, okay, let's scale things back.
The way I see it, the Wizard line of command in K8P goes:
Mathilde (Loremaster) -> Johann (Senior Magister in Mathilde's Employ) -> Max (Magister in Mathilde's Employ) -> Panoramia (Most Senior Journeywoman)
Panoramia is not a particularly good fit for all of the duties of replacement Loremaster, but she is the person I'd expect to naturally step up and take care of any Wizard Business if the need arises while Mathilde, Johann, and Max are incommunicado.
She's also already in contact with the senior Karak management on the Stewardship side, since she's making sure we don't all starve, with the Halflings officially recognizing her as a Master equivalent (and paying her the appropriate salary) so appointing her as the emergency Wizard Liaison won't come out of nowhere.
The way I see it, the Wizard line of command in K8P goes:
Mathilde (Loremaster) -> Johann (Senior Magister in Mathilde's Employ) -> Max (Magister in Mathilde's Employ) -> Panoramia (Most Senior Journeywoman)
Panoramia is not a particularly good fit for all of the duties of replacement Loremaster, but she is the person I'd expect to naturally step up and take care of any Wizard Business if the need arises while Mathilde, Johann, and Max are incommunicado.
She's also already in contact with the senior Karak management on the Stewardship side, since she's making sure we don't all starve, with the Halflings officially recognizing her as a Master equivalent (and paying her the appropriate salary) so appointing her as the emergency Wizard Liaison won't come out of nowhere.
I'm still a bit confused at "3 wizards will be living in the same city for a while, better make sure one of them is in charge".
The Duckling Club is an informal fellowship. If Hubert got in a snit and stopped showing up because Mathilde got him angry, that would be fine. Nobody would drag him back by force.
The Duckling Club is an informal fellowship. If Hubert got in a snit and stopped showing up because Mathilde got him angry, that would be fine. Nobody would drag him back by force.
- Location
- Finland
You know, while i love this new round of "why Panoramia is terrible", how about people come up with other candidates, and arguments in favor of them, for the new wizard wrangler of K8P.
Or make an argument for why one should not be picked.
Now, i don't think one is needed for our short trip, but if we decide to get one, Pan works fine for the job.
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You have a bunch of wizards, it's nice to know who to go complain at if someone does something silly.
Or make an argument for why one should not be picked.
Now, i don't think one is needed for our short trip, but if we decide to get one, Pan works fine for the job.
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Reason for this is that dwarves like having a hierarchy.
You have a bunch of wizards, it's nice to know who to go complain at if someone does something silly.
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