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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
In theory, it shouldn't be possible. The Grudge process involves someone going to the Grudgee and laying out what the problem is, and if they said 'wait I didn't do that' then there'd be a lot of investigation to figure out what's going on. If for whatever reason an innocent Grudgee doesn't communicate that when they have the opportunity, then that's Playing Silly Buggers and they deserve everything they get. If the Grudgee is a being that doesn't get the courtesy of a warning, like a greenskin or a Skaven or whatever, then they're still enemies of the Karaz Ankor so it's not that big a deal. If someone plays a really long con where they manage to trick the entire process into getting a Grudge levelled and executed against an innocent party, then the responsibility for that is entirely on whoever that puppet master was and they get Grudged twice, once for the original Grudge and once for the trick, and while reparations would be made to the innocent Grudgee, the culpability would be considered that of the trickster, not the Dwarves involved.
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Ok, I know this is really niche, and just my stupid brain trying to conjure insane scenarios, but.... what if the Grudgee cannot communiccate? Like, if a Grudge was leveled against the We before they were uplifted, they couldn't say anything or even understand why thy were attacked.

Dawi can grudge mountains, so I imagine they could Grudge hypothetical nonuplifted We for killing a Dawi. But then, some wizards manage to communicate and prove hypothetical race was sentient, and wasnt actually them that killed the Dawi (they keep records, just not ones legible to outsiders), the Dawi they were grudged for were killed by orcs, but that race ate the orcs and moved to their place before the next expedition came in. Said next expedition, incidentally, reported that the place of the Dawi apparent death was really in the middle of those strange being's nest. What then?
 
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storryeater said:
Ok, I know this is really niche, and just my stupid brain trying to conjure insane scenarios, but.... what if the Grudgee cannot communiccate? Like, if a Grudge was leveled against the We before they were uplifted, they couldn't say anything or even understand why thy were attacked. Dawi can grudge mountains, so I imagine they could Grudge hypothetical nonuplifted We for killing a Dawi. But then, some wizards manage to communicate and prove hypothetical race was sentient, and wasnt actually them that killed the Dawi (they keep records, just not ones legible to outsiders), the Dawi they were grudged for were killed by orcs, but that race ate the orcs and moved to their place before the next expedition came in and reported that the place of the Dawi apparent death was really in the middle of those strange being's nest. What then?
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There's no precedents. It would probably be escalated on to Karaz-a-Karak's Loremasters and Lawmasters for them to figure out what needs to be done.
 
@BoneyM Is dragons visiting an important mortal library actually a thing that happens every century or two? I assume that at least most Hysh dragons have a scholarly side and that giving Cython a book and then letting him borrow more wasn't some kind of never seen before kickflip of dragon society.
 
Rafin said:
@BoneyM Is dragons visiting an important mortal library actually a thing that happens every century or two? I assume that at least most Hysh dragons have a scholarly side and that giving Cython a book and then letting him borrow more wasn't some kind of never seen before kickflip of dragon society.
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No. Outside of Ulthuan, most dragons see mortal societies as sources of food and treasure, and most mortal societies see dragons as sources of glory and treasure and sometimes slaves. Introducing Cython to the Colleges would definitely result in someone going through the archives to see if they have a Scroll of Binding for an Ice Dragon.
 
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BoneyM said:
No. Outside of Ulthuan, most dragons see mortal societies as sources of food and treasure, and most mortal societies see dragons as sources of glory and treasure and sometimes slaves. Introducing Cython to the Colleges would definitely result in someone going through the archives to see if they have a Scroll of Binding for an Ice Dragon.
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... for safety sake or 'free dragon!"
 
BoneyM said:
No. Outside of Ulthuan, most dragons see mortal societies as sources of food and treasure, and most mortal societies see dragons as sources of glory and treasure and sometimes slaves. Introducing Cython to the Colleges would definitely result in someone going through the archives to see if they have a Scroll of Binding for an Ice Dragon.
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I don't want Cython to be enslaved, they're a Nice Dragon not an Ice Dragon.
 
BoneyM said:
No. Outside of Ulthuan, most dragons see mortal societies as sources of food and treasure, and most mortal societies see dragons as sources of glory and treasure and sometimes slaves. Introducing Cython to the Colleges would definitely result in someone going through the archives to see if they have a Scroll of Binding for an Ice Dragon.
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Hopefully they would wait to actually use it for long enough that important phrases like 'functionally reclaimed a Karak', 'officially recognized power with a signed treaty with a Dwarf king', 'killed the last warboss to lead a Waagh against said king ', and 'That's a Grudging' could be uttered and understood.
 
consequences said:
Hopefully they would wait to actually use it for long enough that important phrases like 'functionally reclaimed a Karak', 'officially recognized power with a signed treaty with a Dwarf king', 'killed the last warboss to lead a Waagh against said king ', and 'That's a Grudging' could be uttered and understood.
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Consider all of the other things that the Empire does that make dwarves mad. They wouldn't get more than a word or two of that out before they started the scroll waving. :V
 
consequences said:
Hopefully they would wait to actually use it for long enough that important phrases like 'functionally reclaimed a Karak', 'officially recognized power with a signed treaty with a Dwarf king', 'killed the last warboss to lead a Waagh against said king ', and 'That's a Grudging' could be uttered and understood.
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I mean, if it worked out perfectly, I'm pretty sure the Dwarfs would consider binding it a positive.

(Especially for a cut of the treasure horde)


Even Belegar probably wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. Cython currently represents the largest threat in the area to K8Ps, if it wanted to be.
 
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BoneyM said:
If they thought they could get away with it, the latter. A dragon in the pocket could do a lot of good for the Empire.
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Does the thought that they might fail, or somehow down the line the dragon would get free not give them any pause? I know for sure that angry pissed off dragon would definitely get a hard pass from me.
 
The Karaz Ankor as a whole isn't what you'd call dragon-friendly. Dragons and Dwarves both like to live underground with a lot of treasure, and it doesn't take much for one to start eyeing the other thoughtfully. A lot of Dwarven treasures are possessed by dragons, and a lot of Dwarven treasures are made from dragons. Karak Azgal had its treasure vaults cracked open by a dragon after it withstood greenskin attempts to uncover it. Zhufbar has a Hall they can't use because the fire dragons calling it home refuse to be evicted.

Alioth said:
Does the thought that they might fail, or somehow down the line the dragon would get free not give them any pause? I know for sure that angry pissed off dragon would definitely get a hard pass from me.
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One doesn't become a Wizard in the first place if they're not okay with rolling the dice on high risk, high reward.
 
Ungrim has (had?) a pretty good feud going with one dragon up by his hold. He's currently wearing her son.

There's no love lost there.
 
BoneyM said:
If they thought they could get away with it, the latter. A dragon in the pocket could do a lot of good for the Empire.
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Honestly I can where they're coming from, from a utilitarian perspective it's the right call as much as I hate it. From the Emperor's POV it makes perfect sense, a dragon could turn the tide of a war and save the Empire, the life and liberty of one dragon is not worth the deaths and corruptions of thousands to millions of lives. From a personal emotional perspective however I still loathe the concept with the fury of a thousand suns.
 
NexusEye said:
Honestly I can where they're coming from, from a utilitarian perspective it's the right call as much as I hate it. From the Emperor's POV it makes perfect sense, a dragon could turn the tide of a war and save the Empire, the life and liberty of one dragon is not worth the deaths and corruptions of thousands to millions of lives. From a personal emotional perspective however I still loathe the concept with the fury of a thousand suns.
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From an ultilitarian perspective.... it really isn't, because the dice are not necessarilly in your favour here.
 
NexusEye said:
Honestly I can where they're coming from, from a utilitarian perspective it's the right call as much as I hate it. From the Emperor's POV it makes perfect sense, a dragon could turn the tide of a war and save the Empire, the life and liberty of one dragon is not worth the deaths and corruptions of thousands to millions of lives. From a personal emotional perspective however I still loathe the concept with the fury of a thousand suns.
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Yes-yes, it does make a certain amount of sense, but-but as you say, lacks moral integrity. Thankfully, the primary flaw in their plan is simply a matter of assuming they need to force the matter, and refusing to look for better solutions. There are, after all, many ways to convince someone or something to work for you without resorting to such uncouth methods.
 
A lone emperor dragon has the luxury of not having to answer to anyone. However the other side of that is that they don't have anyone looking out for them either.
 
storryeater said:
From an ultilitarian perspective.... it really isn't, because the dice are not necessarilly in your favour here.
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If the Colleges believe they can get away with it, I believe they can get away with it, they would have a way better grasp on the situations and odds than we do. I don't think they'd try unless they were certain the risk-reward ratio was worth it.
 
NexusEye said:
If the Colleges believe they can get away with it, I believe they can get away with it, they would have a way better grasp on the situations and odds than we do. I don't think they'd try unless they were certain the risk-reward ratio was worth it.
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I believe we have some very recent word of QM on that subject....

BoneyM said:
One doesn't become a Wizard in the first place if they're not okay with rolling the dice on high risk, high reward.
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NexusEye said:
If the Colleges believe they can get away with it, I believe they can get away with it, they would have a way better grasp on the situations and odds than we do. I don't think they'd try unless they were certain the risk-reward ratio was worth it.
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I would bet on Imperial Wizards as a whole being institutionally more open to risk than the axiomatically-conservative voters of a long-term SV quest. Not to an unreasonable degree, but these are the same group that have half their members sign up to learn Battle Magic as a teenager, with most of their upper caste drawn from the survivors of that same group. The Patriarch of the Colleges is a guy who, for his basic-level Journeying, decided to strike out entirely alone into the Far East for a decade or two and came back to punch the incumbent as a Dragon.

Just look at the ongoing argument about enchanting a gyrocopter. Given to the colleges, that copter would be taken apart, experimented on, and put back together several times already.
 
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