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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Shane_357 said:
You don't quite seem to understand what starting from zero is. Literally every farming culture in our history has at least started from an area that could harbour plant life to some degree. Panoramia didn't. Making an ecosystem from literally barren rock isn't just impressive - it's something you'd expect from literal divine miracles. Panoramia has set herself a goal that no mundane farmer could have matched without literal centuries of work, and she's succeeding. Forget 'farming', 'terraforming' is a more accurate word.
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Point of fact, it wasn't barren rock. It was loose soil that had previously been part of the orcoid fungal system until it was throughly boiled by the Kragg/ Thorek and the Tower of Burning Gazul fire.

The soil it's self was the only problem and they already had a ready source of fertilizer to make it viable. Everything else could have been sourced from foreign parts. In fact a bare terrain to work from is in many ways much better, you have literally no other cultivars or weeds trying to compete with what you're growing. The only hindrance is the lack of insects to act pollinators but that can solved by literally bringing in bees or doing it by hand.
 
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Valmond said:
1. If the success condition was "study a thing" without "get something useful out of it" then sure, Rattling gun was a success.
Mathilde figuring a way to counterspell it is not Johanns success.
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It's Skaven technology, Half of it consists of "Jam Warpstone in and See What Happens". So yes, I believe when dealing with something that erratic, dangerous, and reality warping, that you do need to consider Just successfully figuring that yeah, it's reliant entirely on warpstone a success. Otherwise you have a Goal that can literally be impossible.

Valmond said:
2. Was Ooze Johann's success or was it him working for Mathilde? Either way, minor success, great, now go do more.
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It was a Joint Project between him and Pan. And if you think a substance that can cut down on the amount of food a draft animal needs by half, and can be made from rotten and unusable biological waste is a Minor Thing, then okay.

Valmond said:
3. Puppies are not skaven technology, unless Johann is intending to start a breeding program for imperial use (extremely unlikely).
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I think Clan Moulder Might disagree with that. (I'm assuming they were responsible for them but if they are just a natural part of the Skaven Ecosystem then I'll conceed this point.)

Valmond said:
This is not about "a thing was done", this is about grand ambitions, and Johanns was to succesfully campture and study Skaven tech, which he had extremely minor success at.
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By that metric he succeeded by half. With the Whole Capture part. He was then (With help) Making progress when the vote to sell occurred.

But anyway I'll admit when I initially responded I thought you were claiming He had no success at all. Which I think would have been flat wrong. But if you are talking entirely in context of said "Ambition" then we enter a much murkier ground, where success or failure comes down to how you look at it. Like I said I look at that as a success. You don't, that's fine. But I'd like to think my "Did it get done? Yes? Success!" Attitude is not "Downright Bonkers. "

EDIT:And with Boney's WOG that it was merely a means to an end, then I think that makes my position even more valid.

Omegahugger said:
Why would we do that? The Liber Mortis is not inherently a magical device and we know with pretty high certainty where it came from. The only positive outcome I can think of from using Tale of Metal on it is if it turns out that Frederick van Hal wasn't actually the author and therefore isn't to blame for Sylvania being Sylvania.

... Okay, I suppose we could also do it we want Johann to stare at a Van Hal face for however long the spell lasts, which I can't blame anyone for wanting.
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When Johann cast it on the shavings, he got a glimpse of the gods working. My hope is that, if he casts it on the book, Or maybe something elsemade by Van-Hal or Vampire dude whose name I forget, is that he might get a Glimpse of them working, and potentially see something they didn't write down. Like maybe a conversation they had while writing or some such.
 
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The wildly exaggerating how key Pan was and how irrelevant the halfings were to the whole process is really just making me want to dismiss what was actually a very impressive effort from her. It's okay to acknowledge she's doing a great job with things without trying to paint it as if she's carrying to entire enterprise solely on her back.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Point of fact, it wasn't barren rock. It was loose soil that had previously been part of the orcoid fungal system until it was throughly boiled by the Kragg/ Thorek and the Tower of Burning Gazul fire.

The soil it's self was the only problem and they already had a ready source of fertilizer to make it viable. Everything else could have been sourced from foreign parts. In fact a bare terrain to work from is in many ways much better, you have literally no other cultivars or weeds trying to compete with what you're growing. The only hindrance is the lack of insects to act pollinators but that can solved by literally bringing in bees or doing it by hand.
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If it's been boiled it's even worse. Microbial life can be key to plant growth, let alone what that exposure to boiling fungus could have done to the acidity.
 
Shovern said:
It's Skaven technology, Half of it consists of "Jam Warpstone in and See What Happens". So yes, I believe when dealing with something that erratic, dangerous, and reality warping, that you do need to consider Just successfully figuring that yeah, it's reliant entirely on warpstone a success. Otherwise you have a Goal that can literally be impossible.
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We are talking about Ambition (with capital A), not reasonable and realistic goals.

Shovern said:
It was a Joint Project between him and Pan. And if you think a substance that can cut down on the amount of food a draft animal needs by half, and can be made from rotten and unusable biological waste is a Minor Thing, then okay.
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Minor success, because it was not Johann doing it, and it was just one part of the hoard.

Shovern said:
I think Clan Moulder Might disagree with that. (I'm assuming they were responsible for them but if they are just a natural part of the Skaven Ecosystem then I'll conceed this point.)
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I'm talking about reverse engineering bit. But sure, if Johann manages to figure out how to do Moulder bioengineering, i will declare him succesful in his ambition.

Shovern said:
By that metric he succeeded by half. With the Whole Capture part. He was then (With help) Making progress when the vote to sell occurred.
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So he quit halfway? Yeah, sounds about right.
This is not about "was a thing done", this whole discussion is about grand ambitions.
Mathilde has them, even if sporadically, Pan has them, and is succeeding in major way, Johann had one, and it failed.

Nobody (reasonable) is going to declare an ambition of getting to the north pole, quit haflway, and claim success because someone else managed to get to the north pole.
 
Valmond said:
Panoramia is growing crops, to feed a nation, in a dead valley.
The speed, and scale, matter, this is not managed to make some plants grow in a barren soil, it is turning barren soil into a breadbasket of a city/nation with insanely small time scale.
Like, Pan is building an ecosystem, it's something we struggle to do today at large scale.
And, no, i don't think it is simpler than what Johann proposed for himself (in which he failed), or what Mathilde has done.
It is different, but claiming it is simple, even compared to something like sword of Gazul (that Mathilde got shit ton of help not only from dwarves and dwarf priests, but the goddamn grey Pattriarch who is famous for towers), is going too far, even if you discount the fact that Pan does not have a Pattriarch holding her hand.
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I mean she is still growing crops, less crops would just mean we would have to import more or just tight our belts and eat mushrooms like dwarfs. Belegar is not an idiot he would not have started out on this expedition if the only way his people could not starve would be some miraculous work of Green Magic.

By contrast less Eye of Gazul would mean we would all be dead. I think the super-weapons takes it.
 
Valmond said:
We are talking about Ambition (with capital A), not reasonable and realistic goals.

Nobody (reasonable) is going to declare an ambition of getting to the north pole, quit haflway, and claim success because someone else managed to get to the north pole.
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Dude, I don't like the subtle insinuation that I'm not reasonable. I think that If I got halfway there (And then a bit), then managed to magically swap with the new guys, and have them finish it, that I'd count that as a joint success.

Like, I'm looking at it like a Relay Race. You're looking at it as a 400 meter Sprint. You're view is valid, but so is mine, please stop calling it unreasonable.

Also you got Ninja'd by WOG, It was a Means to an End. Not necessarily his Ambition.
BoneyM said:
Johann had his eyes set on Skaventech as a means to an end. The equation has changed since he took sight on that target as a newly-minted Magister.
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DragonParadox said:
I mean she is still growing crops, less crops would just mean we would have to import more or just tight our belts and eat mushrooms like dwarfs. Belegar is not an idiot he would not have started out on this expedition if the only way his people could not starve would be some miraculous work of Green Magic.

By contrast less Eye of Gazul would mean we would all be dead. I think the super-weapons takes it.
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Only because the situation is one where we needed a superweapon, instead of one where we can't import food.
If we had a larger army, then we would not have need the Eye of Gazul either.
Impressiveness of a feat needs to be examined beyond how immediately useful it is.
Just because it saves a life, throwing a lifeline to a drowning person is not more impressive than building a full scale replica of the great wall of china.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia.

Eh, all the others have good qualities but I think Panoramia is the one who most understands us, which is rather important in a relationship.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Francesco Caravello, proud Viceroy of the Undumgi.
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart, leader of the frontier town of Ulrikadrin.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] The Amber College, to check in on the salamanders.
[X] The Gold College, to see what's become of their research into Skaven technology.
[X] Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.
 
10moorem II said:
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia.

Eh, all the others have good qualities but I think Panoramia is the one who most understands us, which is rather important in a relationship.
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That's.... a strange way of putting things. Johann understands Mathilde. Where Pann was a star struck fan girl though Johann was in many ways already Mathildes equal during the expedition and even got one over her intrigue wise by actually being a Magister already and Mathilde not realising it until later.

Regardless Johann does get Mathilde, its just instead of poking holes in Mathildes Fun he's happy to run with things and even amplify that. Pan on the other hand is willing to do no such thing which is kind of annoying to read consistently.
 
Valmond said:
Only because the situation is one where we needed a superweapon, instead of one where we can't import food.
If we had a larger army, then we would not have need the Eye of Gazul either.
Impressiveness of a feat needs to be examined beyond how immediately useful it is.
Just because it saves a life, throwing a lifeline to a drowning person is not more impressive than building a full scale replica of the great wall of china.
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So you are saying there is a situation where you can exist as an isolated settlement at the far edge of civilization in Warhammer Fantasy and not need a superweapon? The Eye provides an incomparable and irreplaceable defense, a stable food supply could be replicated by other means like mushroom farms and trade, indeed that was likely what Belegar was planing to do if he did not have halflings and a Jade Wizard.
 
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[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Elder Hluodwica, High Priestess of Esmerelda and civilian leader of the Eight Peaks Halflings.
[X] Gretel, who's apparently spending her newly-earned wealth to make herself at home.
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart, leader of the frontier town of Ulrikadrin.

Belegar, because Belebro.
Eike, because I'd like to see what stage of corruption she's reached from Wilhelmina's tutoring.
Kasmir, to say goodbye to some old friends before heading into the Chaos Wastes.
Hluodwica, because it's frankly kind of silly we still haven't spoken with her.
Gretel, since I love all our Ducklings and she hasn't gotten much focus this turn.
Ruprecht, since he's a cool wolf boy who doesn't afraid of the Chaos Wastes.

[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann

Between Johann and Panoramia, I've simply had more fun reading our interactions with Johann. That's all there really is to it.

That said, I adore the Ice Dragon option - it's my absolute first pick, and I'd be perfectly content if it won solo.
 
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Vebyast said:
Her plan after she develops an entire ecosystem from the ground up is to start screwing around with the world's largest waystone circle for fun.
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As far as I know her plan is to simply keep working on the soil. The only time she mentioned waystones was when she said she was pulling power out of them.

[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
 
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Shovern said:
Dude, I don't like the subtle insinuation that I'm not reasonable. I think that If I got halfway there (And then a bit), then managed to magically swap with the new guys, and have them finish it, that I'd count that as a joint success.

Like, I'm looking at it like a Relay Race. You're looking at it as a 400 meter Sprint. You're view is valid, but so is mine, please stop calling it unreasonable.

Also you got Ninja'd by WOG, It was a Means to an End. Not necessarily his Ambition.
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If you want to use the definition of success as a "thing was succeeded in", yes, but that was not what the discussion was about.
If Pan had to quit because things got too hard and call another magister to finish her work, then while the work succeeded, her ambition of doing it would have failed.

That Boney made a statement about Johann's ambition does not really matter for the semantic argument, except to make it even more pointless.
I'm happy to drop it if you want, we're basicly treading same ground over and over again.
The important bit was about wether Pan is ambitious or if her work is impressive or not.

DragonParadox said:
So you are saying there is a situation where you can exist as andisolated settlement at the far edge of civilization in Warhammer Fantasy and not need a superweapon? The Eye provides an incomparable and irreplaceable defense, a stable food supply could be replicated by other means like mushroom farms and trade, indeed that was likely what Belegar was planing to do if he did not have halflings and a Jade Wizard.
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Somehow drwaven Karaks have managed to exist without giant flamey towers, and that giant flamey tower would not have saved K8P.
That K8P could exist without Panoramia does not make her success non impressive, and it is not the fact that Eye of Gazul saved K8P what makes it impressive.
 
Klaus said:
As far as I know her plan is to simply keep working on the soil. The only time she mentioned waystones was when she said she was pulling power out of them.

[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
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Naw she has some interest in looking into it:
BoneyM said:
Oh! And speaking of, that's another thing to take on once I'm done with the soil. Never even heard of a circular Waystone cluster anything like this big before, there's a paper or two in that."
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Valmond said:
If you want to use the definition of success as a "thing was succeeded in", yes, but that was not what the discussion was about.
If Pan had to quit because things got too hard and call another magister to finish her work, then while the work succeeded, her ambition of doing it would have failed.

That Boney made a statement about Johann's ambition does not really matter for the semantic argument, except to make it even more pointless.
I'm happy to drop it if you want, we're basicly treading same ground over and over again.
The important bit was about wether Pan is ambitious or if her work is impressive or not.
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I mean, at this point, if Pan did throw it at a different Jade and called it good, I'd count that as a successful Ambition. I just really think along the lines of if it gets done, then it's a success, even if you got someone else to finish the fight. (Within reason).

But yeah, I think we've both expressed our opinions. And yeah Panoramia is Ambitious, won't argue that.
 
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[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin

So. It has come to this.

Let us tread where no mortal has trod before!
 
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia

My choice was made long ago. Panoramia isn't the cute kouhai she was during the Expedition, she's grown up and has obtained an impressively accurate read on Mathilde since then. She plays a wonderful Straight Woman (ironically enough) to Mathilde's punnery and relative insanity, their dynamic makes me smile. To quote someone else months ago, Johann is our bro, but he isn't our dude.

[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.

Because I want to pursue a deeper platonic/intellectual relationship with Cython, zero romantic inclinations towards them. I simply don't see any points of interest to that, it would be weird if they were just a powerful long-lived hermit of some other species and Mathilde wants to express romantic interest after a few conversations? But why. It's just insane to me that we would want to do this when our existing relationship is a few sticks of balsa wood held together with Elmer's Glue.

Can we get a platonic Cython vote? Feeling them out for more extensive conversations? That's what I want the most, and what I feel would be pretty popular with people that adore Cython and only want to spend more time with this character. That can probably be extended to all the romance options actually.
 
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