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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] Elder Hluodwica, High Priestess of Esmerelda and civilian leader of the Eight Peaks Halflings.
[X] Julia, to see what she has gotten up to as Stirland's most experienced spy master.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean who are you comparing him to? Mathilde who is the PC and by that very nature is going to have more opportunities to do grand things or Panoramia who... grows crops. Not to put too fine a point on it but people have been growing crops for millennia. I'm sure the halflings would have managed something without her, maybe not as stable or not as rich, but grandiosity about 'starting from zero' aside the goal of growing a crop is much simpler than anything Johan proposed for himself, certainly much simpler than the things Mathilde as done.
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Panoramia is growing crops, to feed a nation, in a dead valley.
The speed, and scale, matter, this is not managed to make some plants grow in a barren soil, it is turning barren soil into a breadbasket of a city/nation with insanely small time scale.
Like, Pan is building an ecosystem, it's something we struggle to do today at large scale.
And, no, i don't think it is simpler than what Johann proposed for himself (in which he failed), or what Mathilde has done.
It is different, but claiming it is simple, even compared to something like sword of Gazul (that Mathilde got shit ton of help not only from dwarves and dwarf priests, but the goddamn grey Pattriarch who is famous for towers), is going too far, even if you discount the fact that Pan does not have a Pattriarch holding her hand.
 
Valmond said:
Sure, if you want to count everything he did as succeeding in his ambition, then sure, but that's a bit of a reach.
Also, did we reverse engineer the rattling gun in a usable way? Like, is empire about to start building totallynota!rattling guns?
Like, i am not saying Johann has not succesfully done things, he has.

But we are talking of something like a major ambition, translating queekish (he was part of it, but as an assistant, not a driver, and it was not his ambition), feeding an entire karak be transforming a dead valley into a bread basket, building a super weapon like the sword of Gazul...
Like, i don't want to downplay his accomplishments, he has done stuff, even important stuff, but we are talking about something lot bigger than finding some pups and raising them.

The skaven tech we gave up, no longer his accomplishment.
There is value in the "well someone got it done", but that is not we are talking about, it's like Mathilde giving up on AV, or Pan calling in a magister because she feels she is no longer up to the task, the task might succeed in the end, but Mathilde and Pan would have failed.
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Like Beep pointed out, I think this is partially a difference in a definition of success.
But even with the definition that handing it all off to get done off-screen isn't success, I'd still say:
Valmond said:
Johann did not succeed, not even in a "technically the thing he wanted to do happened",
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Is wrong.

To focus just on tech, Johann's Mission was "Study Skaven technology, and see if it can be reverse engineered."

The Rattling gun was researched, As for "can it be reverse engineered?" the answer was no(Which is an answer), but here's a quick counterspell (Coutresy of Mathilde.)
The Ooze was researched. And it's looking like yes it can be used by humanity. Which is big. Like Very Big.
And the rat Puppies, as much as he's treating them as pets, have been/ are being researched.

Then the Skaven were defeated, and Skaven Technology became Narratively unimportant to the thread, so they got sold off and shipped off screen. But everything he did before that is his accomplishment. And it did Fulfill his Mission of "Research Stuff".

I'll agree that it would be a better look if Boney had him keep his half of the stuff, but I can also see how that might invite some weird "But what if we have our cake and eat it too" Shenanigans from the thread.

Vebyast said:
The thing is, Johann's at 10 spells despite having been a Magister since before the start of the expedition, and I suspect that he learned those 10 spells before he hit Magister. Panoramia's still actively learning spells, including breaking through to FC which probably involved a +Magic somewhere. Johann's certainly putting in a spectacular amount of effort, but I'm not sure I'm seeing spectacular results. I haven't seen his capabilities transform the way Mathilde's or Panoramia's have.

I, uh, also don't know how up-to-date Panoramia's spell list is. The rest of her profile feels a bit stale.
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The Dramatis Personae is out of date as a whole and Boney has plans to rework it later. But It's what I have to work with.

But it sort of explains Johann's lack of Progress, we won't be seeing his growth until expedition time as per WOG.

An if he did hit those spells before Magister then, that doesn't hurt my argument? That would just mean he had more spells then her even when he was a journeyman.
Vebyast said:
Hah, serendipitous. I already argued that I think it wouldn't have gotten done without her. Link here. Summarized, the halflings cite her as one of two things that made it possible (alongside the corpses of our enemies), and she says that the Eastern Valley's agriculture succeeds or fails entirely due to her performance.
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Guess I missed that.
But:
BoneyM said:
"Early days yet," the Halfling says, "but promising. A lot of our crops won't grow this far south but we've sent word back to Barak Varr for seeds from Tilea - we're about as far south as Luccini by my reckoning, and while we're not likely to get their rain, if we can find enough water to irrigate that won't matter. So it becomes entirely a matter of soil quality, and between the amount of corpses we've got for fertilizer and young Panoramia we should be able to make something of the Eastern Valley."
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When I read that I see Three parts:
Seeds: Taken care of.
Water: Taken care of.
Soil: At least half taken care of.

As for the rest, I guess that comes down to "Do you take her at face value?", and that seems so open to interpretation that, I guess we'll just interpret it differently.

But I still think Halflings could have figured it out. She def helped a lot, but I think they'd have had it. Even if the karak would have been living off jerky and Mushrooms for a bit.

Vebyast said:
I think that I saw something more like:
Belegar -> Edda -> Panoramia
Elder Hluodwica -> Panoramia

Guess it depends on where Hluodwica is exactly. Either way, see above about Panoramia being responsible for the success or failure of agriculture in Karak Eight Peaks. Theoretically she's "just" been hired to fix the soil, but in practice that means she's ultimately responsible for coordinating everything that goes into, comes out of, eats off of, or poops on the ground in the region. I'd have to go through quoting things, but IIRC her updates at the Duckling Club indicate that she's also been getting steadily more involved in the demand side of things and the planning and orchestration of the whole agriculture affair. I'm having trouble coming up with an equivalent that'd illustrate the principle outside serious-business engineering. Like, think of her as the lead architect at an engineering company - the CEO can set a direction, the CFO handles the high-level budget strategy, the CTO can choose what market segment to target, but ultimately speaking she's the one that's actually doing all of the engineering.
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And I think this also boils down to how you view the Halflings as a polity, and where you think Pan's position is in said Polity.

If you take it as a separate but equal, then yeah like you say, her position would be relatively equal to that of Mathilde's. (But less fun). But if you treat it as a subordinate Vassal in all but name, then you get (or can at least see) my interpretation.

Omegahugger said:
That's not being silly.

Johann conclusively discovering that the Ancestor Gods exist is both impressive and something he deliberately set out to do. He put "prove/disprove the divinty of dwarven artifacts" on his list of objectives and the madlad did it.

Frankly, if people want to sway me to board the Johann train, that's probably the nail that they should be hammering.
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As for you, well I don't know how else to hit that hammer.

But if I had to try: I would argue that if say we wanted to get him to do a repeat performance on Ranald's coin, then we'd have an easier time convincing Johann to do so if we were close to him. We'd also have a greater chance of him not being immediately smited, as Ranald seems eager to keep in our good graces, and smiting the Husbando is not good for that.

And you like Necromancy, so how about we get close to him, and then when we've built trust, get him to do his thing on the Liber Mortis. See if he can't grab any extra insights for us. Same goes for any Necromatic shinnies we might get.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean who are you comparing him to? Mathilde who is the PC and by that very nature is going to have more opportunities to do grand things or Panoramia who... grows crops. Not to put too fine a point on it but people have been growing crops for millennia. I'm sure the halflings would have managed something without her, maybe not as stable or not as rich, but grandiosity about 'starting from zero' aside the goal of growing a crop is much simpler than anything Johan proposed for himself, certainly much simpler than the things Mathilde as done.
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You don't quite seem to understand what starting from zero is. Literally every farming culture in our history has at least started from an area that could harbour plant life to some degree. Panoramia didn't. Making an ecosystem from literally barren rock isn't just impressive - it's something you'd expect from literal divine miracles. Panoramia has set herself a goal that no mundane farmer could have matched without literal centuries of work, and she's succeeding. Forget 'farming', 'terraforming' is a more accurate word.
 
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[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia

Pan is a definite yes for me. There are lots of reasons to like her in my opinion, most of which have already been gone over by the thread, but looking back there's one undiscussed key moment that I think was the catalyst for me moving her from 'I like this character' to 'this character is a viable romance option'.
BoneyM said:
Over the next few weeks, you take the freshest Journeymanlings on several outings against greenskins and Skaven, some with Johann and one with Panoramia, who disquiets all three of them with her cheerily efficient weaponization of the rapid growth of thorned plants.
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Anybody who can creep out other wizards by cheerfully murdering skaven with plants is AOK with me.

[ ] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann

This one is... difficult. I like Johann, I really do. He's easily one of my favourite characters in the quest. BUT. I feel his current relationship with Mathilde just works better than a romantic one would. He's the friend you go out to do stupid shit with, the one who you laugh about the bruises and near-misses and the 'I can't believe we actually did that' moments with afterwards. And that's just not romance material in my mind. I'd definitely like to spend more time with him and bond with him more- just not in a romantic way.

[ ] [ROMANCE] Elector Countess Roswita van Hal

I like Rosi, and I like Mathilde's relationship with her, but it doesn't feel right for a romance to me. Mathilde just seems to have slid into a mentor or big sister role for Rosi, and while that is very cute and fun to read about it wouldn't feel right taking that romantic places. Or at least, not yet- if nothing comes of this round of romance, maybe she'd feel less like someone Mathilde is guiding and advising in a few years?

[ ] [ROMANCE] Baron Anton Kiesinger II

Another example of a relationship I like, but don't want to change. Anton is basically already Mathilde's family, the brother she never had. It just oozes out of their interactions for me, and it's even on the character sheet. They're close, they know each other well, and they'll support one another come hell or high water. But not as lovers, as siblings.

[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin

Cython seem like a pretty chill and laid-back character, but beyond that it's one big mystery (or should that be mistery? :V) and an intriguing source of history and knowledge. It's also, uniquely, the only possible relationship where it doesn't feel like Mathilde would be the one in the position of power. I'll be honest, I doubt this will actually end in romance-romance if it wins, but any interactions with Cython are gold (or possibly hysh?) and that's worth it for me. And if it does end in romance after all, bonus!

[ ] [ROMANCE] Chief Bombardier Oswald Oswaldson

Offler's history is interesting, and I like his cat and cat ranking system. Osmund himself, however, I just find dull.

[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Elder Hluodwica, High Priestess of Esmerelda and civilian leader of the Eight Peaks Halflings.
[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.

Hluodwica is someone we just don't know much about and who'd like meet, Kasmir is an old friend we haven't spoken to in a while, and Belegar is Belegar.
 
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[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Julia, to see what she has gotten up to as Stirland's most experienced spy master.
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
[X] [ROMANCE] Baron Anton Kiesinger II
[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
 
Shovern said:
Like Beep pointed out, I think this is partially a difference in a definition of success.
But even with the definition that handing it all off to get done off-screen isn't success, I'd still say:

Is wrong.

To focus just on tech, Johann's Mission was "Study Skaven technology, and see if it can be reverse engineered."

The Rattling gun was researched, As for "can it be reverse engineered?" the answer was no(Which is an answer), but here's a quick counterspell (Coutresy of Mathilde.)
The Ooze was researched. And it's looking like yes it can be used by humanity. Which is big. Like Very Big.
And the rat Puppies, as much as he's treating them as pets, have been/ are being researched.

Then the Skaven were defeated, and Skaven Technology became Narratively unimportant to the thread, so they got sold off and shipped off screen. But everything he did before that is his accomplishment. And it did Fulfill his Mission of "Research Stuff".

I'll agree that it would be a better look if Boney had him keep his half of the stuff, but I can also see how that might invite some weird "But what if we have our cake and eat it too" Shenanigans from the thread.
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1. If the success condition was "study a thing" without "get something useful out of it" then sure, Rattling gun was a success.
Mathilde figuring a way to counterspell it is not Johanns success.
2. Was Ooze Johanns success or was it him working for Mathilde? Either way, minor success, great, now go do more.
3. Puppies are not skaven technology, unless Johann is intending to start a breeding program for imperial use (extremely unlikely).
This is not about "a thing was done", this is about grand ambitions, and Johanns was to succesfully campture and study Skaven tech, which he had extremely minor success at.
This is nothing new, people hve captured skaven tech before, studied it, and if Boney comes and gives word of god that nobody ever reverse engineered any of it i will be very surprised.

In the end, Johann, who has been magister as long, if not longer, than MAthilde, has managed to have very limited success, gave up on it, and is now working as someone else lab assistant, while Mathilde and Pan are both shaping the fate of nations (Pan less than Mathilde, but let's not claim feeding a nation is not super important), and Pan is not even a full magister yet.

You are using a definition of success for Johanns ambition that is downright bonkers.
Johann has abandoned his ambition, he may have found a new one, or might in the future, but the unravelling of Skaven tech in some sort of usable form is something he had extremely limited success, and then left for others in exchange of a fancy stick.
 
Shane_357 said:
You don't quite seem to understand what starting from zero is. Literally every farming culture in our history has at least started from an area that could harbour plant life to some degree. Panoramia didn't. Making an ecosystem from literally barren rock isn't just impressive - it's something you'd expect from literal divine miracles. Panoramia has set herself a goal that no mundane farmer could have matched without literal centuries of work, and she's succeeding. Forget 'farming', 'terraforming' is a more accurate word.
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Karak Eight Peaks harboured orcs before we got here, they're a kind of plant life. :p And slightly more seriously, those orcs were growing quasi-edible Waaaghsoak Mushrooms that we could research.

(Fungi are plants in the colloquial sense, before someone tries to be a sophist about this.)
 
Valmond said:
1. If the success condition was "study a thing" without "get something useful out of it" then sure, Rattling gun was a success.
Mathilde figuring a way to counterspell it is not Johanns success.
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It's also worth noting that Johann got completely stuck on the ratling gun for multiple turns until Mathilde pitched in to give him a hand. He was getting nowhere on it alone. That's not really a strike against him in the general sense, as figuring out any skaven tech is a difficult and dangerous process, but it does make the success far less 'his' if that makes sense.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Gretel, who's apparently spending her newly-earned wealth to make herself at home.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[X] The Gold College, to see what's become of their research into Skaven technology.
[X] Eike Hochschild, to get to know your future business partner.
 
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Exmorri said:
Karak Eight Peaks harboured orcs before we got here, they're a kind of plant life. :p And slightly more seriously, those orcs were growing quasi-edible Waaaghsoak Mushrooms that we could research.

(Fungi are plants in the colloquial sense, before someone tries to be a sophist about this.)
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Pretty sure those fungi are not growing in the area Pan is turning into a bread basket.
Could be wrong.
 
NSMS said:
It's also worth noting that Johann got completely stuck on the ratling gun for multiple turns until Mathilde pitched in to give him a hand. He was getting nowhere on it alone. That's not really a strike against him in the general sense, as figuring out any skaven tech is a difficult and dangerous process, but it does make the success far less 'his' if that makes sense.
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Johann has done many great and valuable contributions not only to the empire in general, but the college's in specific.
It's just that lot of those contributions happened "while working as Mathilde's assistant".
And, that's fine, it's a rare discovery that gets made in a vacuum (no astrology jokes plz), but we are talking about who is ambitious and succesful in those ambitions, not just who is productive.

zup said:
Because dragon? More importantly, why are you and people NOT voting for the dragon?
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Because dragon?
I'd love to have him as a social option, but romance, no thanks. (he's too old for us)
 
Shovern said:
And you like Necromancy, so how about we get close to him, and then when we've built trust, get him to do his thing on the Liber Mortis. See if he can't grab any extra insights for us. Same goes for any Necromatic shinnies we might get.
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Why would we do that? The Liber Mortis is not inherently a magical device and we know with pretty high certainty where it came from. The only positive outcome I can think of from using Tale of Metal on it is if it turns out that Frederick van Hal wasn't actually the author and therefore isn't to blame for Sylvania being Sylvania.

... Okay, I suppose we could also do it we want Johann to stare at a Van Hal face for however long the spell lasts, which I can't blame anyone for wanting.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Elder Hluodwica, High Priestess of Esmerelda and civilian leader of the Eight Peaks Halflings.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.

BoneyM said:
The conflicts over whether tacos are a subset of burritos or vice versa are second only to Malekith in the amount of strife brought to Ulthuan.
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According to the canon tier list, this is now canon until/unless contradicted by the quest, and should be discussed heavily as a factor efore going to elfcation
 
[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin

People of the thread, Now is the time!
Vote dragon!
Make the dream come true!

Seriously though, where else can you find a story that makes something like that even plausible? The novelity alone is a compelling reason, and Cython is pretty cool in general too. Also, talking about them means unintentionally making puns. Do you not want puns?

It also means we have a reason to keep doing social actions with the dragon. This of course means more dragon, the right and proper way of things.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
[X] [ROMANCE] Elector Countess Roswita van Hal

[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Belegar, to discuss the northern Karaks and the Expedition.
[X] Follow up on your donation of the Skaven organ-vat, and see what has been made of it.
 
[X] [ROMANCE] Journeywoman Panoramia
[X] [ROMANCE] Magister Johann
[X] [ROMANCE] Elector Countess Roswita van Hal
[X] [ROMANCE] Baron Anton Kiesinger II
[X] [ROMANCE] The Ice Dragon of Karag Zilfin
[X] [ROMANCE] Chief Bombardier Oswald Oswaldson

I'm more interested in any one of these than almost any other social action. Right now the closest [ROMANCE] votes are in fourth and fifth place, which is crazy to me. And other people can discuss which 'one' is the best, but I'm convinced there's plenty of romance potential for any of these characters, we just have to actually romance them. Edit: Meh, would rather these get third/fourth place than not.

[X] Kasmir, to see how he's keeping himself busy in Sylvania.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
 
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