Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Lightwhispers]

I tend to see Ranald's domains (aside from outright theft) as parts of society that aren't beneficial, but tend to be more harmful to outright attack than to just build a society that reduces their influence.

That said, in a civilization which is not working all that well, which describes most if not all of them in Warhammer, it's quite possible to turn Ranald's aspects towards good. As Mathilde has.

Beyond that, I think this conversational thread is rather silly.

 

[Andres]

I regret we didn't set up Ranald's KEP temple as one dedicated to the Protector. Would've been great to see worship of him as a ranger god develop, set up some future conflicts between the KEP cult and the main cult. Now instead it's just a ticking time bomb until Ranald's true nature is revealed and the dwarves take an axe to his worship.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Many of those are (I think) not really espoused in in the wiki. What did you reference in order to list and grade them?

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that's because most of them are 'build your own cult GM's' prompts for the rpg books.

I'm really only taking what they are the god of and what is described as signs of a socially functioning community in the works of Hobbs, Locke and Rousseau.

(the joke in political science being Rousseau is quoted by twitter, Hobbs is used by governments and Locke was probably closest to being 'right', and so everyone forgets about Locke.)

 

[Abhorsen]

I regret we didn't set up Ranald's KEP temple as one dedicated to the Protector. Would've been great to see worship of him as a ranger god develop, set up some future conflicts between the KEP cult and the main cult. Now instead it's just a ticking time bomb until Ranald's true nature is revealed and the dwarves take an axe to his worship.

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In fairness, what we did there was gambling, so it ought to be gambling. Meanwhile, I don't think that's a problem. Mathilde already described Ranald to Belegar, and it was accepted.

 

[Alratan]

Bah. At least he has a girlfriend, unlike that virgin Sigmar.

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Girlfriend or rape victim, depending on who you believe.

 

[Glau]

every other god is harder to place or a nature god (so they don't give a crap one way or the other.)

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I'd argue that most nature Gods are in fact anti-social, given the strictures against civilization and it's products. Also, encouraging violence and self-reliance tend to produce some very antisocial people.

 

[Andres]

In fairness, what we did there was gambling, so it ought to be gambling. Meanwhile, I don't think that's a problem. Mathilde already described Ranald to Belegar, and it was accepted.

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He described Ranald to Belegar in a particular way, and that particular way was interpreted as 'ranger god'. That is a bad interpretation. There are no cults that treat him as a ranger god, just a thief god. And yeah, it's dedicated to the Gambler, but the Karak Eight Peaks cult of Ranald will not develop a ranger god out of the Gambler, nor some other new take on Ranald, it'll just develop classic Ranald. The Protector was the one and only chance to plant the seed that'd grow into a new take on Ranald. And we turned that down, and for what? Because we use one face of the Coin more than the others? What a waste.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I regret we didn't set up Ranald's KEP temple as one dedicated to the Protector. Would've been great to see worship of him as a ranger god develop, set up some future conflicts between the KEP cult and the main cult. Now instead it's just a ticking time bomb until Ranald's true nature is revealed and the dwarves take an axe to his worship.

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I pretty sure that Boney said that the most likely outcome of trying( and succeeding) would have been the rangers mixing up Ranald worship with Grombrindal myths and creating an ancestor god of rangers that nether would be too happy with Mathy about.

 

[chocolote12]

Rhya, Myrmidia, Shallya, Albaulea, Arvala, Artho the Unmoving, Borchband, the Voice, Clio? (maybe), Dehagli, Dyrath, Esmerelda, Gaffey, Haendryk, Handrich, Josias, Kalita, Loerk, Mercopio, Millavog, O Prospero, Phineas, Quinsberry, Renbaeth the Shrewd, Salyak, Scripsisti, Skalor, Stovarok, Vallich, Wendred.

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I don't know why I felt compelled to elaborate on all these guys, but for reference:

Rhya: The goddess of cultivated nature; the point where Ghur turns to Ghyran.

Myrmidia: The goddess of orderly warfare.

Shallya: The goddess of healing and mercy.

Albaulea: Stirland's farming goddess.

Arvala: Ostermark's goddess of carpentry.

Artho the Unmoving: God of tradition.

Borchband The Voice: God of rhetoric and debate.

Clio? (maybe): Literally just a greek muse; presumably lost, or on vacation.

Dehagli: Averland's goddess of tailors.

Dyrath: Reikland's secret and minor deity of fertility and motherhood.

Esmerelda: Halfling goddess of hearth and home.

Gaffey: Halfling god of building.

Haendryk: Also known as Handrich, imperial god of mercantilism.

Josias: Halfling god of animal husbandry.

Kalita: Kislevite Handrich. Not sure if a knock-off or a competitor.

Loerk: Nordland god of dance.

Mercopio: Tilean Handrich.

Millavog: Wissenland's god of dancing; them and Loerk should face off some time.

O Prospero: Estalian prosperity god.

Phineas: Halfling god of farming.

Quinsberry: Halfling god of knowledge and tradition.

Renbaeth the Shrewd: Minor god of lawyers.

Salyak: Kislevite Shallya; not an approximation, their own cults both say so. Different traditions, though.

Scripsisti: Goddess of calligraphers and writing. Hates the printing press, apparently, presumably because it'll shatter her lock on the entirety of literature.

Skalor: Ostland's god of bartering.

Stovarok: Nordland's god of storytelling.

Vallich: Nordland's god of smithing.

Wendred: God of duty and service.

 

[Andres]

I pretty sure that Boney said that the most likely outcome of trying( and succeeding) would have been the rangers mixing up Ranald worship with Grombrindal myths and creating an ancestor god of rangers that nether would be too happy with Mathy about.

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We should never have built the temple. Ranald has no place being anywhere near dwarf society.

 

[SpaceSloth]

We should never have built the temple. Ranald has no place being anywhere near dwarf society.

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Without Ranald there would not be dwarf society in K8P.

 

[Andres]

Without Ranald there would not be dwarf society in K8P.

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Doesn't mean he has a place within it. After getting the dwarves KEP we should've kept Ranald out of it, made sure never to have built him the temple, just a private shrine for our own worship. Now it's only a matter of time until the thieving starts, Ranald's true nature is uncovered, and Mathilde's reputation is tarnished forever.

 

[veekie]

Ranald when you boil down to it would be:
-Gambler - Take risks and own them. Ride the edge till you fall off.
-Deceiver - Lie, mislead, misdirect. Control their perceptions, prove yourselves more cunning than any other.
-Night Prowler - Intrude, and go where you are forbidden, unseen and unheard.
-Protector - Defend your community, harm it not and do not let others harm it.

Looks a bit contradictory at first, but what it boils down to is a god of liminal spaces, Ranald is a god of the kind of disorder that requires things to be ordered and civilized. He picks up followers who while intrinsically belonging to a civilized order, do not actually follow the rules of civilization even as they depend on it.

Legitimizing Ranald isn't too hard, the problem is pretty much that by nature, the blessings are indiscriminate and frustrating to a legitimate authority, while "it could be worse" is cold comfort.

 

[LilyWitch]

Ranald represents the pre-modern view of merchants as being essentially parasitic and so disreputable, like the rest of his aspects, while Handrich represents the modern view that merchants create value by what they do and are a respectable profession.

Ranald is the god of merchants as itinerant peddler, while Handrich is the god of the merchant as aspiring prince of commerce.

Handrich is a better merchant god, being a god of the rising middle classes as opposed to the travelling peddler. The EIC is a much better fit for Handrich than Ranald. And that's not a problem. Diluting Ranald's focus and trying to make him a god of commerce rather than crime is unnecessary. This is a polytheistic setting. You can revere multiple gods each in their sphere. He doesn't need to be the god of merchants any more than he needs to be the god of dreams or war.

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Handrich is neither a better merchant god or a better god in general. He is literally and explicitly the god of trickle down economics. Putting aside that his cult is tiny and may not even be founded yet.

 

[HavocKeeper]

Doesn't mean he has a place within it. After getting the dwarves KEP we should've kept Ranald out of it, made sure never to have built him the temple, just a private shrine for our own worship. Now it's only a matter of time until the thieving starts, Ranald's true nature is uncovered, and Mathilde's reputation is tarnished forever.

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I highly doubt Francesco would abide thieves running rampant and he's in charge.

Also, when Mathilde put out the call for Gambler aligned priests for the temple Ranald himself intervened to stop someone from taking advantage of it.

 

[Alratan]

Protector - Defend your community, harm it not and do not let others harm it.

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Remember that the Protector is called that as basically PR. In this aspect he's the god of the underclass resisting the Man, not a warrior or defender god. It's about the rejection of authority that's deemed illegitimate.

Handrich is neither a better merchant god or a better god in general. He is literally and explicitly the god of trickle down economics. Putting aside that his cult is tiny and may not even be founded yet.

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Handrich is a much more modern conception of economics. Trickle down economics is much better than mercantalism, of believing that trade is a zero or negative sum game, which is what Ranald is in theme for.

 

[Andres]

I highly doubt Francesco would abide thieves running rampant and he's in charge.

Also, when Mathilde put out the call for Gambler aligned priests for the temple Ranald himself intervened to stop someone from taking advantage of it.

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He wouldn't abide thieves, so he'd destroy them, point out that Ranald is at fault, and everyone knows why Ranald is in Karak Eight Peaks.

And yeah, for now it's fine, but afterwards? When Mathilde's dead and Ranald has exactly zero reason to care anymore? That's when the thieving starts, the dwarves will realise what kind of person Mathilde really was all along to be worshipping that god and sneaking him into a karak.

Handrich is a much more modern conception of economics. Trickle down economics is much better than mercantalism, of believing that trade is a zero or negative sum game, which is what Ranald is in theme for.

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There isn't the slightest evidence I could find about Ranald being like that. He's just a merchant god. Haggle good, find good prices, stuff like that.

 

[SpaceSloth]

Doesn't mean he has a place within it. After getting the dwarves KEP we should've kept Ranald out of it, made sure never to have built him the temple, just a private shrine for our own worship. Now it's only a matter of time until the thieving starts, Ranald's true nature is uncovered, and Mathilde's reputation is tarnished forever.

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[Recruiting dealers and priests: Piety, 73+26=99.]

You reach out to Heideck, and make it crystal clear that you're looking for those dedicated only to the Gambler, and that any Deceiving or Night Prowling directed towards Dwarven hosts or Undumgi protectors will result in very harsh consequences and you'll not be shielding anyone from them. He says he'll put word out, and you turn your attention to other matters until the faithful begin to trickle in. Retired merchants, battered mercenaries, sailors seeking good solid rock under their feet for a change - all people who have spent a lifetime entrusting themselves to Ranald and are quite ready to instead facilitate the chance-taking of others. One quite convincing card sharp got quite a way into the interview with you having only barely set off a few minor suspicions, until he stopped mid-sentence, listened to the sliver of Ranald's attention that had just turned your way, then apologized and left.

By midyear, the Temple begins to fill with those knowingly or unknowingly paying homage to Ranald. Anyone seeking to cheat was very quickly seen through by those that know when the Gambler is suddenly supplanted by the Deceiver. And under the watchful eye of a newly brevetted Lieutenant Snuggles, the cat statue became the perch of choice for Karag Nar's small but growing feline population.

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We rolled 99. Asked only for those that are dedicated to Gambler and Ranald even intervened on our behalf. If anything the crime from human population should go down since there is community of Ranald worshipers that understand that stealing from dwarfs will piss both dwarfs and the scary Wizard.

 

[Andres]

We rolled 99. Asked only for those that are dedicated to Gambler and Ranald even intervened on our behalf. If anything the crime from human population should go down since there is community of Ranald worshipers that understand that stealing from dwarfs will piss both dwarfs and the scary Wizard.

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And yeah, for now it's fine, but afterwards? When Mathilde's dead and Ranald has exactly zero reason to care anymore? That's when the thieving starts, the dwarves will realise what kind of person Mathilde really was all along to be worshipping that god and sneaking him into a karak.

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[LilyWitch]

Trickle down economics is wrong and Ranald is also explcitly the god of the people who will fight against injustice and oppression. Handrich is the god of our modern oligarchic economy. Again, literally and explicitly the god of trickle down theory, reganomics, neo-libralism. That is not something to aim for.

 

[HavocKeeper]

He wouldn't abide thieves, so he'd destroy them, point out that Ranald is at fault, and everyone knows why Ranald is in Karak Eight Peaks.

And yeah, for now it's fine, but afterwards? When Mathilde's dead and Ranald has exactly zero reason to care anymore? That's when the thieving starts, the dwarves will realise what kind of person Mathilde really was all along to be worshipping that god and sneaking him into a karak.

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You're fearmongering.

 

[Andres]

You're fearmongering.

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I'm sad.

 

[storryeater]

Time for an discussion to stuff discussed while I was away binge.

or it's far from what the Old Ones would have considered a complete success.

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Isn't that bussiness as usual for the old ones?

The idea behind a Venerated Soul is they become a delegate of the God in question and available to answer prayers on their behalf, which would require no longer be wandering around the place.

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New idea: we can continue the quest even after we die, as an advisor to Ranald

like yea, but that's a pipe dream, he's not 'recognized' because most of what Ranalds themes are about are bloody awful. Literally only one of them is strictly a positive and that's ranald the protector. All the other themes are hilariously bad as a general rule. I get that Mathilde is a Ranald worshipper but there's no way to effectively push for Ranald to be officially recognised and publically accepted with out Ranald not being the god of thieves.

It doesn't matter how many great deeds you burn, he's not going to be an accepted god because he goes against what all the people in power would want.

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Ranald is almost uniquely anti-social amongst the non-proscribed gods.

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Ah... the list would be rather long. Most proscribed gods Khaine, Stromfels, that human sacrifice-happy nature god who hates Taal they are anti-social in that their worship and themes run specifically against the underpinnings of human society and old world society in particular. The god of murder, the god of thieves, of bandits, of sea monsters and pirates, these are things society at large is harmed by. Yes there are instances where stealing can be justifiable and pro-social even if it isn't pro-state, Robin Hood is pretty much classic Ranald the Protector, but that is just one aspect, the others are not as nice.

1. Gambling is inherently harmful, often addicting and often comes packaged with cheating and violence
2. Speaking of cheating, Ranald the Deceiver is in its purest form about lying well and skillfully, He is the god of conman, cheats and quacks, the sort of people who destroy lives
3. Ranald the Nigh Prowler is about stealing, it's not about stealing from the wealthy to give to the poor (that is Protector) it's just about stealing well and skillfully, that is victimizing people in the most obvious way of the three I presented

You can be a good person because you are a Ranaldite if you worship him primarily as the Protector, for the others you have to be a good person in spite of Him.

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Those sentiments are only correct according to some interpretations of Ranald. Sure, depending on how gods work all interpretations may be equally valid, and depending on what Ranald does the worst interpretation may well be correct, but as far as the quest is concerned, neither interpretation is set in stone.

My interpretation for Ranald, and you can call it whitewashing if you want but it is actually no less valid than the ones you propose, is that Ranald functions as a whole, not by facets. As Boney said, you invite a facet, you invite all of him. Seen as a whole, his domain changes into the domain of chaitic good, or at least that's what it would be called in a world when the word chaos didn't have so many negative conotations. He is the god of Robin Hoods and maaaybe thrilseeker Arsene Lupen types, of gamblers that try to break exploitative casinos and people who bluff the high lords that just decide the fates of those below them, not the god of drudgery. He is also the god of the prankster that humilliates the authority figure that wants to seem high and mighty and in control.

Sure, that means his domain contains all the things that are used by those people, but I think there is a reason Ranald may play a destructive prank on people invoking his name just as often as he helps them: I think he may be smiting them for using his name to ccommit evil.(note the world destructive, he plays pranks to friends too, but they tend to be innocent pranks)

I think that seeing Ranald as a whole, he is also pro social, because he is a check to tyrants and people that try to deify themselves by appearing above it all the way tyrants tried to since ancient times. His commutes are, after all, functioning just fine and with a good anti-chaos track record, meaning that his worship is objectively conductive to some sort of society, although it may be closer to the ideals of anarchy (I mean the actual ideology of anarchy which is still a structured society, not hollywood anarchy) than anything else.

Saint Carmen Sandiego.

You know it is true.

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That would imply she is dead. Or that she could die. Both sound like slander to me. Death couldn't find or catch her.

Girlfriend or rape victim, depending on who you believe.

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I do not think there was any sex, at least pre Ranald ascension, so even in worst case interpretation, that word sounds incorrect.

 

[Andres]

The EIC is built on the idea it's better to make a small profit forever than a big profit and have to skip town.

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Handrich is a bad fit for the EIC too it turns out. One of his strictures is "Do not get caught in a lie until you have left town."

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On the negative side, Handrich is both greedy and manipulative, exhorting the belief that the ends justify the means. In Handrich's eyes, if you make a profit from someone else's stupidity or ignorance, than that's coin better spent on better ventures. Cultists are encouraged to put up this double standard of presenting a respectable face to the public, while fleecing them with fixed prices and false shortages.

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[HavocKeeper]

I'm sad.

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Like, I get where you're coming from, but you're being a bit panicy about it. With Francesco and the EIC basically in charge of the human element of the Karak I don't think we have to worry about theives being a major problem. The Undumgi are farily dwarflike and the EIC is set up to heavily discourage abusive practices, they're both inherantly anti-thieving, and you have to be a special kind of stupid to start stealing thing in a dwarf Karak to begin with. It's not likely to be an issue within our lifetime and I think they'll hold up as institutions. The temple to the Gambler is fairly harmless in the grand scheme of things, imo, because of this.