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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
Because of how unstructured the Cult of Ranald is, they tend to only be know to the local Ranaldian community. Mathilde only knows about Saint Grey, Saint Grey, and Saint Grey, and none of them are suitable for merchants.
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I like Saint Grey, they know that it's about the people, but that Saint Grey... ohhhh. They're nothing more than a low-down dirty lyin' stinkin' oppertunist!

I'd not be savin' them from the hangman's noose any time soon!
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I've not met Saint Grey though, and as such have no opinion on them

Edit: I posted this before I read BoneyM's post on what the actual saints did to become saints. Ignore this post are irrelevant comedy: For one thing, the third Saint Grey is a hero.
 
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DragonParadox said:
And the one that is positive is not positive to the people in charge, Ranald the Protector is in his own way just as anti-social as the others, just in a way that appeals to modern sensibilities.
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You've described Ranald as anti-social a lot.

1). I'm a descriptivist
2). I'm bored of semantic discussions online

So rather than explore and expand upon our understanding of the term "anti-social" I'm going to ask this: What human gods in WHF aren't anti-social as you measure it?
 
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BeepSmile said:
You've described Ranald as anti-social a lot.

1). I'm a descriptivist
2). I'm bored of semantic discussions online

So rather than explore and expand upon our understanding of the term "anti-social" I'm going to ask this: What human gods in WHF aren't anti-social as you measure it?
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Ranald is almost uniquely anti-social amongst the non-proscribed gods.
 
BeepSmile said:
You've described Ranald as anti-social a lot.

1). I'm a descriptivist
2). I'm bored of semantic discussions online

So rather than explore and expand upon our understanding of the term "anti-social" I'm going to ask this: What human gods in WHF aren't anti-social as you measure it?
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Ah... the list would be rather long. Most proscribed gods Khaine, Stromfels, that human sacrifice-happy nature god who hates Taal they are anti-social in that their worship and themes run specifically against the underpinnings of human society and old world society in particular. The god of murder, the god of thieves, of bandits, of sea monsters and pirates, these are things society at large is harmed by. Yes there are instances where stealing can be justifiable and pro-social even if it isn't pro-state, Robin Hood is pretty much classic Ranald the Protector, but that is just one aspect, the others are not as nice.
  1. Gambling is inherently harmful, often addicting and often comes packaged with cheating and violence
  2. Speaking of cheating, Ranald the Deceiver is in its purest form about lying well and skillfully, He is the god of conman, cheats and quacks, the sort of people who destroy lives
  3. Ranald the Nigh Prowler is about stealing, it's not about stealing from the wealthy to give to the poor (that is Protector) it's just about stealing well and skillfully, that is victimizing people in the most obvious way of the three I presented
You can be a good person because you are a Ranaldite if you worship him primarily as the Protector, for the others you have to be a good person in spite of Him.
 
BeepSmile said:
Am absolutely asking DP for them, and no one; else to answer my question, as DP is the person who holds DP's lexicon. Anyone else who answers with the same words as DP would are doing so by chance.
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I mean, they haven't exactly espoused any views so out there that you could reasonably come to this conclusion. 'Lying, Stealing, Gambling, and Rabble-rousing are bad for societies' is something many people believe axiomatically, even before you get into the merits of them all (only the last can even potentially have a single good interpretation, if a worshipper is focused on one's fellow citizens).

Meanwhile, Sigmar is literally a god of a society. 'Listen to your hierarchical betters', 'be friends with your allies', 'be enemies to the bad people'; those are the fundamental building blocks of civilization. If you do those things societies work. If you lie, gamble, or steal from your fellow citizens they fall apart; only the Protector even tries to make anybody's lot better.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ah... the list would be rather long. Most proscribed gods Khaine, Stromfels, that human sacrifice-happy nature god who hates Taal they are anti-social in that their worship and themes run specifically against the underpinnings of human society and old world society in particular. The god of murder, the god of thieves, of bandits, of sea monsters and pirates, these are things society at large is harmed by. Yes there are instances where stealing can be justifiable and pro-social even if it isn't pro-state, Robin Hood is pretty much classic Ranald the Protector, but that is just one aspect, the others are not as nice.
  1. Gambling is inherently harmful, often addicting and often comes packaged with cheating and violence
  2. Speaking of cheating, Ranald the Deceiver is in its purest form about lying well and skillfully, He is the god of conman, cheats and quacks, the sort of people who destroy lives
  3. Ranald the Nigh Prowler is about stealing, it's not about stealing from the wealthy to give to the poor (that is Protector) it's just about stealing well and skillfully, that is victimizing people in the most obvious way of the three I presented
You can be a good person because you are a Ranaldite if you worship him primarily as the Protector, for the others you have to be a good person in spite of Him.
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This is an in-depth answer as to why you view Ranald as anti social in particular, and I agree with it, but I think I worded my question to you poorly:

Out of all the gods in WHF, as you understand them, are any of them not anti-social as you understand the term? If so, who?

Being a good person is hard. I think having standards is a good thing btw.

(Pre post edit: I have been informed that "big thews" is not relevant to whether a god is pro-social/anti-social(/somehow neutral).)
 
Andres110 said:
This is why earlier I said "like a remarkably modern place, at least on par with the Empire" rather than merely "on par". The way this is described doesn't make me think Renaissance Europe, it makes me think Age of Enlightenment Europe.
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It does seem like the place where the Enlightenment will be born if it is born at all. It definitely can't be this world's France after all.
Andres110 said:
with secret police to fight against.
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Who is the Kislevite secret police?
Valmond said:
As long as EIC remains largely free of Sigmar worship (except as individual choice among workers who understand to shut up about where the boss can hear), Mathilde won't have a reason to start trying to spread her religion within EIC.
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I'm curious if people shutting up about their Sigmar worship happens anywhere other than at the very top when the main shareholders come to visit for inspection. I mean the EIC is pretty much the corporation to work at if you want to make money with tradecraft, but also be an honest person that follows the rules of tue Church of Sigmar. Patriotism, great relations with Dwarves, in favor of Imperial unity, close ties to the ruling class, cooperating with Witch Hunters... New recruits must be hella confused when they get introduced to the CEO for the first time and their middle manager whispers "ix-nay on the igmar-say" in their ear.
BoneyM said:
Mathilde only knows about Saint Grey, Saint Grey, and Saint Grey, and none of them are suitable for merchants.
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Do those three Greys have epithets?
BoneyM said:
Mathilde's relationship with Ranald is atypically close, she doesn't need an interceder.
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Building a relationship with the souls of great wizards who have probably been affected by Ulgu just as she has and now are beacons of Ranald's divine power might still be a decent avenue for the theurgy thing. At the very least we could find out whether gods can do non-destructive surgery on disembodied souls or alternatively whether Arcane Marks don't interfere with divine magic all that much after all.
 
BeepSmile said:
This is an in-depth answer as to why you view Ranald as anti social in particular, and I agree with it, but I think I worded my question to you poorly:

Out of all the gods in WHF, as you understand them, are any of them not anti-social as you understand the term? If so, who?

Being a good person is hard. I think having standards is a good thing btw.

(Pre post edit: I have been informed that "big thews" is not relevant to whether a god is pro-social/anti-social(/somehow neutral).)
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Well gods that support pro-social behaviors would be pro social. The Lady for Bretonia for instance, she is basically the embodiment of the Bretonian social contract, is that contract perfect, no of course not , but the Lady is a force towards making it work better (pious knights are also chivalrous, kind, brave loyal and honest...)
 
BeepSmile said:
And with that, my blood boils. Excuse me for a bit.
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I mean in this case it'd be your elders, a big part of successful childhood is learning to accept that others can be more competent/senior. Our character is quite literally living amongst the people of the warhammer world that take this concept to ludicrous levels. More importantly our character to a large degree likely believes this as well, given you know the heirarcial nature of the colleges of magic.

The old world runs on feudalism, Mathilde is literally a noble and benefits from it.
 
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BeepSmile said:
So rather than explore and expand upon our understanding of the term "anti-social" I'm going to ask this: What human gods in WHF aren't anti-social as you measure it?
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by near definition of their previews: Rhya, Myrmidia, Shallya, Albaulea, Arvala, Artho the Unmoving, Borchband, the Voice, Clio? (maybe), Dehagli, Dyrath, Esmerelda, Gaffey, Haendryk, Handrich, Josias, Kalita, Loerk, Mercopio, Millavog, O Prospero, Phineas, Quinsberry, Renbaeth the Shrewd, Salyak, Scripsisti, Skalor, Stovarok, Vallich, Wendred.

these are the gods whose previews promote or can't really function outside of a stable social-based community.

the gods who's previews that can be seen as a risk to a stable social-based community (e.g anti-social) are

Ranald, Ahalt, Dark Helgis, Fury, Gunndred, Katya, Khaine, Narlog the Inevitable, Rudric, Seppel, Solden, Solkan, Stromfels, Styriss, Vylmar.

some of these you can make arguments (and give examples) for being able to worship in a social way like Ranald, Dark Helgis and Fury. but mostly their worship is not great for the community they are in.

every other god is harder to place or a nature god (so they don't give a crap one way or the other.)
 
BeepSmile said:
This is an in-depth answer as to why you view Ranald as anti social in particular, and I agree with it, but I think I worded my question to you poorly:

Out of all the gods in WHF, as you understand them, are any of them not anti-social as you understand the term? If so, who?

Being a good person is hard. I think having standards is a good thing btw.

(Pre post edit: I have been informed that "big thews" is not relevant to whether a god is pro-social/anti-social(/somehow neutral).)
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Sigmar is mostly good for society. A good society doesn't become worse by worshipping Sigmar. Sure, he has some fascist tendencies, but he also, in his purest form, allows for both polytheism and xenophilia.

Verena is also pretty rad. Seeking knowledge and rule of law? What's not to like? You know, as long as human failings don't introduce terrible laws.
BeepSmile said:
And with that, my blood boils. Excuse me for a bit.
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In a world without instant communication or widespread education some hierarchy is definitely needed. You can't build an anarchic nation-state in the middle ages.
Jyn Ryvia said:
by near definition of their previews: Rhya, Myrmidia, Shallya, Albaulea, Arvala, Artho the Unmoving, Borchband, the Voice, Clio? (maybe), Dehagli, Dyrath, Esmerelda, Gaffey, Haendryk, Handrich, Josias, Kalita, Loerk, Mercopio, Millavog, O Prospero, Phineas, Quinsberry, Renbaeth the Shrewd, Salyak, Scripsisti, Skalor, Stovarok, Vallich, Wendred.

these are the gods whose previews promote or can't really function outside of a stable social-based community.

the gods who's previews that can be seen as a risk to a stable social-based community (e.g anti-social) are

Ranald, Ahalt, Dark Helgis, Fury, Gunndred, Katya, Khaine, Narlog the Inevitable, Rudric, Seppel, Solden, Solkan, Stromfels, Styriss, Vylmar.

some of these you can make arguments (and give examples) for being able to worship in a social way like Ranald, Dark Helgis and Fury. but mostly their worship is not great for the community they are in.

every other god is harder to place or a nature god (so they don't give a crap one way or the other.)
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Many of those are (I think) not really espoused in in the wiki. What did you reference in order to list and grade them?
 
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