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First off, you probably missed this:

Which was in response to me asking explicitly we would get people coming to us for jobs. Second, sure... if we were looking to build a full size college with a significant chunk of the other eight joining up. Personally, given how it has been repeatedly mentioned how hard and rare it is to get even Journeymen in any great numbers, I can't see us getting more than a few dozen other wizards at absolute most, nor should we need it.
There's a difference between it helping, and it being a done deal.

I think the thread is underestimating what it takes to run one... or at the very least, underestimating what Belegar could achieve.

Could Mathilde spend a massive amount of her resources and throw together a neat little place? Yes. But there's clearing the bar, and there's what a Boon from Belegar could do.

Regardless, the biggest issue with this line of argument is, well, we already spend hundreds of hold and a chunk of favor every single turn on books. Most of the time, we end up not touching them.

A giganormous library is something Mathilde is perfectly capable of achieving on her own over multiple turns, without taking any effort in AP or incurring running costs. Hell, we already have a massive library.
 
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Any Dwarf knows, broadly, what a library is.
No Dwarf knows, broadly, what a College of Magic is. They arguably can't know, being so insulated from the Winds.

Asking Belegar for the library means he can understand the objective, and so will any other Dwarf brought in to the project.
I'm not sure the same can be said for a Branch College. He'd have to contract Wizards to do and manage things. Even if that doesn't mean we get tasked right back with delivering it, as his Court Wizard, does that ramp up the complexity and cost dramatically? (Does that even matter, is another question.)
 
All this talk makes me curious.

What would we have the institute research? Like we gave away all of our Skaven technology. The Tongs are unconfirmed and potential helped by Windherder which doesn't seem like it'd be a frequent trait. We're already pretty far into AV. Theurgy leans into our Avatar Trait. There's talk about why we want to make the Sevirscope ourselves.

The only two things which seems like they'd benefit from a research institute are Enchanted engineering which seems like it might be covered by a Mathilde Johann Adela Max combination already. And the Waystone Project. Which admittedly would seriously benefit.

But if we are going to dump all these Boons and Deeds and AP and Favor and Gold into this, I want too see more on the list then Waystones.

Plus on a more personal note, I worry that this would be less personal then the Duckling Club is. And the Duckling Club meetings are some of my favorite bits. And I'd also be wary of character bloat. Already feels like we don't have enough AP to interact with everyone as it is. But that just personal taste.
 
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I'm overall for this plan

Boon: Library

after the libray gets going: Great Deed research Branch college.

Mathy pays for any increases in size or extensions: because she is filthly rich and needs something to spend the money on.
 
All this talk makes me curious.

What would we have the institute research? Like we gave away all of our Skaven technology. The Tongs is unconfirmed and potential helped by Windherder which doesn't seem like it'd be a frequent trait. We're already pretty far into AV. Theurgy leans into our Avatar Trait. There's talk about why we want to make the Sevirscope ourselves.

The only two things which seems like they'd benefit from a research institute are Enchanted engineering which seems like it might be covered by a Mathilde Johann Adela Max combination already. And the Waystone Project. Which admittedly would seriously benefit.

But if we are going to dump all these Boons and Deeds and AP and Favor and Gold into this, I want too see more on the list then Waystones.

Plus on a more personal note, I worry that this would be less personal then the Duckling Club is. And the Duckling Club meetings are some of my favorite bits. And I'd also be wary of character bloat. Already feels like we don't have enough AP to interact with everyone as it is. But that just personal taste.

Technically we still have the Skryre schematics, since the Gold College is making copies. We could make Sevirscope a collaborative college project. Enchanted Engineering is a thing we can do yes, but having an organization dedicated to it means we're always actually doing it instead of just having the potential.

Iirc Boney said that one of the options for the Research Institute was basically just expanding Duckling Club as an official organization, so it'd be along the same lines as current status quo, except Adela would be a lot happier. :V

If we need another AP sink besides Waystones, there's always the enchanted Gyrocopter idea, but I think Waystones will be big enough as is.

Edit, found quotes:
@BoneyM

Out of curiosity, how does a Branch College dedicated to Research Unique to the Eight Peaks (Waystones, Collaboration with the Dawi, etc) play out, in the event Mathilde

a) Directly manages the Colleges as an organization
b) Appoints a deputy to oversee the day to day running of the Colleges on her behalf?

Does it simply make her better at researching a project, or does it work something on the order of Mathilde ordering a certain number of research teams to tackle parts of a huge project autonomously, with Mathilde having the opportunity to intervene to aid one of the research teams? In other words, does it make Mathilde better at executing one option on a research tree, does it reorganize the research/paper-writing tree actions to reflect the resources of a Research Institute as opposed to three wizards (for example, one could go down multiple research trees at once, each tree assigned to one research team), or does it allow Mathilde to assign more people to more parts of a research tree beyond three, with Research teams taking the place of sub-ordinates and Ducklings?

Because I do think a "what good a research institute" is question is something that probably needs abit more clarity about.

A would probably result in it subsuming the current Duckling/Johann/Max half-turns and having three half-turns dedicated to managing the Branch and its employees or performing collaborative research, which would also make it that practically any research task could be performed with those half-turns. B would be a lot trickier to work into the narrative so I'd have to think about how it'd work, but at the very least it would make it much more likely that some more Wizards would arrive to work with.
 
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All this talk makes me curious.

What would we have the institute research? Like we gave away all of our Skaven technology. The Tongs is unconfirmed and potential helped by Windherder which doesn't seem like it'd be a frequent trait. We're already pretty far into AV. Theurgy leans into our Avatar Trait. There's talk about why we want to make the Sevirscope ourselves.

The only two things which seems like they'd benefit from a research institute are Enchanted engineering which seems like it might be covered by a Mathilde Johann Adela Max combination already. And the Waystone Project. Which admittedly would seriously benefit.

But if we are going to dump all these Boons and Deeds and AP and Favor and Gold into this, I want too see more on the list then Waystones.

Plus on a more personal note, I worry that this would be less personal then the Duckling Club is. And the Duckling Club meetings are some of my favorite bits. And I'd also be wary of character bloat. Already feels like we don't have enough AP to interact with everyone as it is. But that just personal taste.
well, with a lot of manpower multi wind projects are opened up in general in a way we don't have right now.

The border princes are right there and as useless as ever, so lots of space for ideas that go BOOM! (on purpose even!)

AV is there for wrangling runesmiths into things they would otherwise not do.

the waystone might be a way to wrangle the elfs into the mix.

and Im sure Bro-king will have lots of 'I have a weird problem, give me a weird solution' scenarios for us to throw wizerds at.
 
But the library is so boring :V

Part of the appeal of getting the college from the Boon is essentially not having to worry about it. It's going to get done, and it's going to get done to an incredible standard. Chipping away at making a few rooms and pulling our hair trying to figure out how to pay everyone is kind of a bother.

It's something new and interesting, that could expand in novel ways.

Library is kind of more of the same. We have literal tons of books, and are constantly adding to it. There's a reason why it's a background thing to buy books, y'know? There's only so many variations of "and then you consulted your great library for help".

Our interactions with fellow wizards are always a high point, and it will be constantly spun in new ways as projects evolve and change.

Imagine dozens of actual Magisters walking about and doing crazy advanced research. The sheer opportunity for interesting interaction is staggering.

Getting the library boon doesn't really help much in getting the College up and running. We already have a stupendous collection. May attract some odd wizard, but the multiple great libraries present in Altdorf should largely fulfill their needs.
 
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Any Dwarf knows, broadly, what a library is.
No Dwarf knows, broadly, what a College of Magic is. They arguably can't know, being so insulated from the Winds.

Asking Belegar for the library means he can understand the objective, and so will any other Dwarf brought in to the project.
I'm not sure the same can be said for a Branch College. He'd have to contract Wizards to do and manage things. Even if that doesn't mean we get tasked right back with delivering it, as his Court Wizard, does that ramp up the complexity and cost dramatically? (Does that even matter, is another question.)
I'm pro-TB-book repository/library, but this argument does not resonate with me. My take on it is this:

Mathilde can be like the main "branch-director", or "someone that gets the directors from the colleges and is-their-boss" of a TB-branch, easily enough and as such I take a TB-spent-on-library to be equivalently optimised as a TB-spent-on-College-Branch

(That said, I do still lean to TB:Library, 2XGD: Branch, General Favour: Facilities)
 
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There's a difference between it helping, and it being a done deal.

I think the thread is underestimating what it takes to run one... or at the very least, underestimating what Belegar could achieve.

Could Mathilde spend a massive amount of her resources and throw together a neat little place? Yes. But there's clearing the bar, and there's what a Boon from Belegar could do.

Regardless, the biggest issue with this line of argument is, well, we already spend hundreds of hold and a chunk of favor every single turn on books. Most of the time, we end up not touching them.

A giganormous library is something Mathilde is perfectly capable of achieving on her own over multiple turns, without taking any effort in AP or incurring running costs. Hell, we already have a massive library.
Well first off, if you want to talk mechanics, and hen I don't see anything a large research facility will affect any more than a small one, either. It's not like we're going to touch on literally everything being done in it anyways. And Mathilde has a big library... for her. On a limited number of subjects. She in no way has a truly extensive library, nor would she be able to assemble one in anything short of a few decades.
But, honestly, my main concern is the narrative part. Mathilde has actively expressed an interest and admiration for preserving knowledge in all its forms, and a jealousy of Dwarven libraries. And building a Great Library of Eight Peaks feels more important, more world-changing, then having a bigger college. Because that's what you want. A bigger college, when so far Mathilde hasn't shown any particular interest in that beyond vague frustration at being unable to do her own research.
 
A Transcendent Boon could likely set up a *Anything and Anyone* Research Institute, and not necessarily just a 'College Wizards Only' Research Institute.
Halfling agriculturalists and gastrochefs.
Ogre Food Critics.
Radical Dwarfen Engineers.
Radical Nuln Engineers.
Elgi Eonir Tall Thin Androgynous Umgi Waystone Researchers (eventually?)

With all the unlocked potential for collaborative, cross-disciplinary projects- See Adela's trait.
 
But the library is so boring :V

Part of the appeal of getting the college from the Boon is essentially not having to worry about it. It's going to get done, and it's going to get done to an incredible standard.

It's something new and interesting, that could expand in novel ways.

Library is kind of more of the same. We have literal tons of books, and are constantly adding to it. There's a reason why it's a background thing to buy books, y'know? There's only so many variations of "and then you consulted your great library for help".

Our interactions with fellow wizards are always a high point, and it will be constantly spun in new ways as projects evolve and change.

Getting the library boon doesn't really help much in getting the College up and running. We already have a estupendous collection. May attract some odd wizards, but the multiple great libraries present in Altdorf should largely fulfill their needs.
I mean... if its interactions you want, the liberty will be the nerd magnet.

the cult of Verena will alone bring in so many interesting characters, as they are the nuttiest of book nuts

then there will be the Indiana Joes types stoping on their way to one ruin or another.

master investigators and old masters looking for clues of ancient knowledge that might start some grand adventure ala Gandalf in the Minas Tirith archives.
 
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What would we have the institute research? Like we gave away all of our Skaven technology. The Tongs are unconfirmed and potential helped by Windherder which doesn't seem like it'd be a frequent trait. We're already pretty far into AV. Theurgy leans into our Avatar Trait. There's talk about why we want to make the Sevirscope ourselves.

1. We swapped our Skaven Technology for AIs. I'd be shocked if we got the whole tree in one go - odds are, we would be taken to around where AV is now, and the tree is as complex as the Skaven Tech tree would have been.
2. We haven't finished the AV tree. We've only managed to find a use for AV, that the Dawi would pay for. I have a suspicion that enchantment exploration actions merely unlocks an entire enchantment tree with five or six options.
3. Ulgu Tongs feeds into Windherder. To use Windherder, we need collaborators, there is no way around there. To have more collaborators wander in into the EIght Peaks without having to pay for favor cost, a Branch College would be extremely useful. There currently is no way to bring either our employees or Ducklings into Windherder right now.
4. Enchanted Engineering is brand new, and born from weeks of thread madness, that often ended with BoneyM clarifying you'd need a sapient mind for some of these projects. Now we have the prospect of AIs that don't breach the articles on the research table, odds are this changes. Besides, odds are, Enchanted Engineering is one massive tree, since there are so many Engineering applications and possibilities.
5. Waystone Project is never going to be a five years and it's done project, unlike Project Queekish.
6. The self-updating MMAP is still on the table, and probably something that'd greatly help the Karak's defenses.
7. There's still the goo research.
8. As we've seen in recent months, the thread will never fall short of proposing new research projects.

At one effective research AP for any of these topics, you can never pursue any of these potentially world-changing topics in any sane amount of time. In the status quo, alot of research is boring to talk about because Mathilde can only research the topic slowly one piece at a time, which means for example, we read turn after turn of Mathilde assembling the AV Safety sheet, because it takes four actions to make that sheet and only one action could be invested in it per turn.

Moreover, I imagine that Mathilde would not dispense with the Duckling Club. Infact, it offers the potential to see the Duckling Club grow, from an informal collection of wizards, to a small annual conclave of a Research Institute, potentially with the funds and political backing of a state. And that's before the Boon actually can mean a research institute that tackles any and everything.

No Dwarf knows, broadly, what a College of Magic is. They arguably can't know, being so insulated from the Winds.

They know what a Guild is. Belegar would almost certainly interpret the request as "fund"/"Patronize" a gathering of scholars and wizards to do research (ie: pay for infrastructure, and within reasonable limits, hiring minions), which allows Mathilde to access the resources of the Eight Peaks to build something that far exceeds anything she could ever do in personal resources. BoneyM did give the analogy of how long a piece of string was, a page ago, on that issue.

As to whether this eats on Mathilde's AP.... as far as I understand, no, because the 1.5AP currently used to manage the Wizards of the Eight Peaks will represent the Research Institue.
 
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Potential research topics for a K8P Research College:

Waystones
AV
Enhantments+Engineering
Runesmith Collaborative Projects (with AV as the bait)
Ranald gave us his blessing to keep studying His divine magic so long as we didn't stare directly at Him like some sort of creeper. We could recruit other baby Ranaldites or particularly irreverent Golds with sticky fingers for other gods' divine artifacts to study the fundamental nature of divine vs arcane magic, even if it didn't lead to hybrid lore casting or one of our other moonshot ideas.
BIG maybe on Bok, because Kragg, but it could happen
Greenskin stuff. We did publish Waaagh and Peace, and there's another mountain of greenskins right there.
Anything we can loot in our future expeditions.
Souvenirs from Naggaroth.
Windherder enchanting.
Spell R&D.
Advances in autonomous spells/enchantments, built off of our new Gold AI knowledge.
If we can train up other wizards in Windherding, see what the limits of collaborative casting are.
And let's round the list off with Waystones again because those are going to take a while.

Let me know if you think I missed anything.

But the library is so boring :V

Part of the appeal of getting the college from the Boon is essentially not having to worry about it. It's going to get done, and it's going to get done to an incredible standard.

It's something new and interesting, that could expand in novel ways.

Library is kind of more of the same. We have literal tons of books, and are constantly adding to it. There's a reason why it's a background thing to buy books, y'know? There's only so many variations of "and then you consulted your great library for help".

Our interactions with fellow wizards are always a high point, and it will be constantly spun in new ways as projects evolve and change.
That argument just makes me want to spend the Boon on the library more, though? As you said, part of the appeal of using the Boon on something is not having to worry about it, and I find buying books is far less interesting to worry about than managing a growing infant magical research institute.

Plus, I'm fairly certain there'll be narrative knockon effects to a Great Library that our non-Great library can't match, so what I'm hearing is that spending the Boon on the Library rather than the College means the Library will become more interesting and the College won't become less interesting.

I was pretty opposed to the Library last time because I wanted to get a research institute, but at this point, especially with AV as a renewable source of Runesmith Favor, it's become clear to me that we can have both things.

So I'm probably going to go with that.
 
I don't like the branch college idea. I've never liked the branch college idea.

I just can't get excited about it. I look at all the ideas people are talking about and I'm just thinking that it sounds cool, in a general acknowledgement way, but I've never much enjoyed the learning stuff in CKII quests and can't see myself enjoying all the effort it would take to set up or finding the payoff nice enough to make all the actions worth it imo.
 
Didn't Boney just say there's very little point to 2 GD on Branch?
Checks mind.
Well, if he did, I missed him saying it. I was operating on the assumption of "1 GB good for thing, 2 GB gives better results".

If it's not too much to ask, can you provide me with a citation, or terms that we can provide to our resident drug citation dealer to get them to search said posts for us (I pay them in cute animal pics. No refunds.)
 
Yeah, we need to consider that we'd be getting some more books as well.
I was pretty opposed to the Library last time because I wanted to get a research institute, but at this point, especially with AV as a renewable source of Runesmith Favor, it's become clear to me that we can have both things.

So I'm probably going to go with that.
Boney's latest post on "can we actually do it" very neatly shows that we can have a branch college.

It's going to be small and self-funded and take a ton of work to set up.
Well first off, if you want to talk mechanics, and hen I don't see anything a large research facility will affect any more than a small one, either. It's not like we're going to touch on literally everything being done in it anyways. And Mathilde has a big library... for her. On a limited number of subjects. She in no way has a truly extensive library, nor would she be able to assemble one in anything short of a few decades.
But, honestly, my main concern is the narrative part. Mathilde has actively expressed an interest and admiration for preserving knowledge in all its forms, and a jealousy of Dwarven libraries. And building a Great Library of Eight Peaks feels more important, more world-changing, then having a bigger college. Because that's what you want. A bigger college, when so far Mathilde hasn't shown any particular interest in that beyond vague frustration at being unable to do her own research.
Our library is noted as already being like one of the biggest private collections in the continent tho?

It touches on something I said before: you can add ever more books on ever more esoteric subjects, but how much does that matter?
I mean... if its interactions you want, the liberty will be the nerd magnet.

the cult of Verena will alone bring in so many interesting characters, as they are the nuttiest of book nuts

then there will be the Indiana Joes types stoping on their way to one ruin or another.

master investigators and old masters looking for clues of ancient knowledge that might start some grand adventure ala Gandalf in the Minas Tirith archives.
We are going to get the odd figure, sure.

But random gacha visitors vs dozens of quirky Magisters doing advanced research? No comparison.
 
5. Waystone Project is never going to be a five years and it's done project, unlike Project Queekish.
Nitpick: Project Queekish was three years. We first acquired Qrech between T22 and T23, took our first Qrech action T23, finished the bulk of the work in T27, but the Reikspiel version wasn't done until T28. Six turns, or three years.
If it's not too much to ask, can you provide me with a citation, or terms that we can provide to our resident drug citation dealer to get them to search said posts for us (I pay them in cute animal pics. No refunds.)
@TotallyNotEvil probably is referring to this Boney quote:
A Great Deed could be spent on getting the College itself built in the architectural style of the Empire, but building it inside a mountain isn't really something the Empire's resources can excel at, and all they could do for recruitment is set up a payroll, you'd need to actually strike deals with teachers and staff yourself.
Which I personally interpreted as "spending a second GD to get it actually built won't accomplish a ton if we want it built inside K8P."

Drop the cute animal pics at the usual place.
 
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Saying "we can get both" goes, well, both ways.

We already have a massive library, and could get the Bestest Branch College. Expanding the library we have just takes money and some favor.

Or we could get the Bestest Library, and with a whole heaping lot of effort get a small college running. And I really have trouble seeing us keeping the doors open.

There's a very, very stark difference between what Mathilde can set up and what Mr Triple Infinite Money can set up.

To say nothing of the wonderful things it'd do to our schedule.
 
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Boney's latest post on "can we actually do it" very neatly shows that we can have a branch college.

It's going to be small and self-funded and take a ton of work to set up.
Boney's comment on how the construction would go was that we'll cross that bridge if we get to it, so the AP cost of setting it up is nebulous, to say the least.

As for resource constraints keeping it small, though, I consider that a feature. People are, rightfully, worried about character bloat and depersonalization as a result of the hypothetical Branch College, so I'm A-OK with a band of plucky misfit researchers in a small-ish collection of elite facilities as opposed to a more sprawling institution.

Saying "we can get both" goes, well, both ways.
Yes, that's why I elaborated on why I wanted to do it this way:
Plus, I'm fairly certain there'll be narrative knockon effects to a Great Library that our non-Great library can't match, so what I'm hearing is that spending the Boon on the Library rather than the College means the Library will become more interesting and the College won't become less interesting.
 
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