Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

The one thing we can't give Mathilde more of is time... At least personally.

Professional teams of wizards that we can order about, on the other hand, should seriously open up possibilities for our wizard actions. Some of the options we had on this very turn should become feasible to do in-house.

Given the recent clarification on how it'd be if we run it, it looks tremendously appealing.

 

[Briefvoice]

Losing the bad attitude and bad example Kragg sets for all the other runesmiths might be worth losing his knowledge, TBH. I wonder how many apprentices have not been taken, how much knowledge has already been lost, by runesmiths following Kragg's proud example.

 

[picklepikkl]

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

The one thing we can't give Mathilde more of is time... At least personally.

Professional teams of wizards that we can order about, on the other hand, should seriously open up possibilities for our wizard actions. Some of the options we had on this very turn should become feasible to do in-house.

Given the recent clarification on how it'd be if we run it, it looks tremendously appealing.

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I really liked @kfrar's post about it:

As far as I'm concerned, the winning move is to spend the Transcendental Boon on b o o k, to spend a Great Deed to open a Branch College with a research focus, and then to spend mundane resources like money and Favor to pay for the Branch College's facilities.

We do not know the estimated cost of College research facilities in mundane resources, but adding a tower to our penthouse costs 100gc base and some combination of additional money (50-100), College Favors (1-5), and Dwarf/Runesmith Favors (1-5), so that maybe gives us an order of magnitude?

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By the time it's built, we'll probably be in a position where we can reasonably divest ourself of our EIC responsibilities, so folding our wizarding into the branch college would give us 5 personal actions and two research half-actions.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

The one thing we can't give Mathilde more of is time... At least personally.

Professional teams of wizards that we can order about, on the other hand, should seriously open up possibilities for our wizard actions. Some of the options we had on this very turn should become feasible to do in-house.

Given the recent clarification on how it'd be if we run it, it looks tremendously appealing.

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I mean, Mathy is on the way to running the current college. (if I have anything to say about it.) so why bother with a Branch.

 

[wrecksalot]

I mean, Mathy is on the way to running the current college. (if I have anything to say about it.) so why bother with a Branch.

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Because a branch college would further strengthen ties between the Empire and the Karaz Ankor, as well as serving as a place for wizards to hide if the empire decides to ban them again.

 

[Ericwinter]

Nononono, they each get the other's power on top of their original one! It'd be kind of silly otherwise, you know?

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Ah, well in that case, we just need to find a decent Jade Wizard! Would Panoramia mind, do you think?
More seriously, I recall something about how the Runesmiths are actually just purposefully using and refining the Protection of Valaya they get given at birth? Maybe we could get that? (Okay, not completely serious, but still)

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

The one thing we can't give Mathilde more of is time... At least personally.

Professional teams of wizards that we can order about, on the other hand, should seriously open up possibilities for our wizard actions. Some of the options we had on this very turn should become feasible to do in-house.

Given the recent clarification on how it'd be if we run it, it looks tremendously appealing.

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That would be a Great Deed, not the Boon, unless you're talking about outfitting it, which isn't really necessary. I would prefer to use the Boo ln on an accompanying library.

 

[Klaus]

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

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It beats spending it on a library.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

It beats spending it on a library.

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Heathen!

 

[ReImagined]

Mathilde has never been this clumsy, stupid, or offensive about spending Dwarf Favor in the past and it honestly feels kinda disingenuous to suggest she would be now, which is frustrating for me. I really don't appreciate what feels like having my position converted into a strawman to make it more easily objected to. I don't think I've done that to anyone arguing against me (and if someone feels I have, let me know and I'll see if I can do better in future), and I'd appreciate that courtesy being returned.

Now, to address the more substantive part of your objection. If Kragg's objection is specifically to taking on an apprentice, then I tried to brainstorm a possible alternative that meets dwarven requirements of secrecy, which I absolutely up-front acknowledge is a hard requirement for anything like this being considered for a second. If Kragg just doesn't want to teach but taking an apprentice isn't an issue aside from that, I don't have an issue with instead leaving hints lying around (with Mathilde's normal tact, not some crassly offensive transactional proposal) that it sure would be amazing to have someone in K8P learning from the great and inspiring Kragg the Grim rather than the alternative I was trying to put together.

And I think by this point we have a good enough relationship (I mean, we killed 500,000 orcs and got what I think might be the only unqualified expression of approval Kragg has given anyone in this thread, even aside from all the other things we've done for the Karaz Ankor) that even Kragg the Grouchy would give us a measure of the benefit of the doubt even if he didn't like a specific idea.

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Would Mathilde actually say those words? No, of course not. But is the logic the same? I believe so, which is why I broke down your position into a form that would expose the flaws in that reasoning more easily. Doing so more subtly and dressed up in more palatable language doesn't change the basic facts of the matter. Kragg has a cultural obgliation to repay us for our service to dwarf kind. He also has a cultural tradition of not teaching anybody unworthy, and a religious obligation not to let the secrets of runecraft fall into the hands of outsiders. We can't leverage the first bit to change the second and third bits, and trying to do so would feel like the language I did use. At least, that's my take.

 

[Ericwinter]

A Great Deed could be spent on getting the College itself built in the architectural style of the Empire, but building it inside a mountain isn't really something the Empire's resources can excel at, and all they could do for recruitment is set up a payroll, you'd need to actually strike deals with teachers and staff yourself.

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...Would our 150 College Rep help with attracting staff at all? I'm sure the costs of actually hiring them and stuff probably wouldn't change, but—from Mathilde's perceotion—are we likely to have people come to us?

 

[Boney]

...Would our 150 College Rep help with attracting staff at all? I'm sure the costs of actually hiring them and stuff probably wouldn't change, but—from Mathilde's perceotion—are we likely to have people come to us?

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Yes.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

I really liked @kfrar's post about it:

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That would be a Great Deed, not the Boon, unless you're talking about outfitting it, which isn't really necessary. I would prefer to use the Boo ln on an accompanying library.

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The issue with that is, as was highlighted in the latest (edit: barring the above) Boney post, it takes an absolute shitton of work to get it up and running.

We need to outfit the grounds, set up the supporting network, actually go out and negotiate with wizards and find ways to entice them to come here, and at last finally pay them. Some might come on their own, but we sort of already have those that came on their own.

We might be rich and influential, but we aren't that rich, and it'd take most important of all a lot of actions to wield that influence about.

That's why I'm saying we spend the Boon on it. Belegar has the sort of reach and power to get everything up and running much more easily than we can.

Like, spending the Boon on a bunch of books and a Deed on a College gets us a bunch of books and permission to start the legwork. Spending the Deed and the Boon on a College gets us the best damn College Belegar can put together.

 

[Gavin Prince]

Nah, we need to hybridise Mathilde with a Runesmith.

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It's a shame Kragg wasn't one of the viable Husbando candidates for the Romance Vote.

 

[Ericwinter]

The issue with that is, as was highlighted in the latest Boney post, it takes an absolute shitton of work to get it up and running.

We need to outfit the grounds, set up the supporting network, actually go out and negotiate with wizards and find ways to entice them to come here, and at last finally pay them. Some might come on their own, but we sort of already have those that came on their own.

We might be rich and influential, but we aren't that rich, and it'd take most important of all a lot of actions to wield that influence about.

That's why I'm saying we spend the Boon on it. Belegar has the sort of reach and power to get everything up and running much more easily than we can.

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Well apparently people are going to be coming to us, so while actually hiring them might cost some, it won't actually take too much effort. And we spend several hundred gold coins every turn on just books, plus our tower additions, and this is before either of the massive, exponential increases from We silk and the canals kicks in. We have almost seventy favor combined just waiting to be spent, and plenty of ways to get more. We kinda are that rich and influential, and will only get more so.

 

[picklepikkl]

The issue with that is, as was highlighted in the latest (edit: barring the above) Boney post, it takes an absolute shitton of work to get it up and running.

We need to outfit the grounds, set up the supporting network, actually go out and negotiate with wizards and find ways to entice them to come here, and at last finally pay them. Some might come on their own, but we sort of already have those that came on their own.

We might be rich and influential, but we aren't that rich, and it'd take most important of all a lot of actions to wield that influence about.

That's why I'm saying we spend the Boon on it. Belegar has the sort of reach and power to get everything up and running much more easily than we can.

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Eh. I'd rather spend personal resources on gearing up a research college branch and a Boon on the Library than the reverse, because we don't need to expand a research institute to its final form right away. We know what stuff like the Room of Neutrality and our enchanting equipment cost, and the answer is "not that much"; we can easily build another four or five, and I don't think we'd need even that many. Especially with EIC dosh rolling in and quadrupling our take-home pay, we can afford to gear it up out of pocket pretty darn well. The objection to the AP cost is fair, but I don't think we can obviate that via Belegar; it's not like he has the right contacts.

 

[kfrar]

Hm.

You know what, I've changed my mind.

I still think we should Book Boon, but I think we should wait until we get assigned to Waystones to establish the branch college with the Great Deed - not to expense parts of the building costs onto Belegar, but so we would be founding a research institute specifically to cooperate with Dwarves and Runesmiths to recreate Waystones.

If that, Mathilde's 150 Rep, and Book Boon couldn't draw staff with a minimal AP expenditure, what could?

(And we would probably be able to expense parts of the construction if we were constructing research infrastructure specifically for the Waystones, and skeevy as I might feel to tap that after spending Belegar's Transcendental Boon on something else we'd be fools to turn that kind of help down.)

 

[Andres]

I strongly suspect people's objections come as a result of the "using aiming runes to avoid needing to learn to use it" part of the idea. Paying currency to get a weapon that is good without you needing to be good at using it is the sort of thing that might rub people the wrong way. It rubs me the wrong way: Mathilde, narratively, is someone who tries to be the master of her tools, from magic to swording to the Eye of Gazul. Mathilde deliberately seeking out a tool that she doesn't know how to use well, and will not learn how to use well, and compensating for that by someone else's magic (not even her own!) feels wrong to me, though I wouldn't call it powergaming. Just... wrong.

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I never thought about it that way, but while I can sympathise with how you and others feel about it, I don't think I can agree with your conclusion that Mathilde feels the same. She has never seemed like someone who wants to master tools out of some primal feeling that she should, only to do her job better or survive. In fact, from where I see it, she's entirely willing to rely wholly on the magic of others to make up for her own lack of skills or power. That's what the Seed of Regrowth and the Candle of Cleansing Radiance are for, and if we were to get a Big Explosion item for assassination or sabotage, that'd be in line with how she operates too. A hypothetical runic crossbow she doesn't need to train with would be in line with that, to me.

Moot point now for the crossbow of course, but I think this talk is still relevant for future magic item discussions.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

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People coming to visit and talk shop is wildly different from coming to become an employee.

And an entire College for all Eight winds should take way more than a handful of rooms. We aren't talking our current book club here.

Fundamentally, the reach of Karak 8 Peaks far, far surpasses our own.

And, the most critical issue is still the sheer time it'd take to set it all up.

I do think waiting to see how the Waystone thing pans out is a good idea before doing this, because that's potentially our grand opening project.

 

[Andmeuths]

I mean, Mathy is on the way to running the current college. (if I have anything to say about it.) so why bother with a Branch.

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BoneyM gave clarification a few days back on what a Branch College in the Eight Peaks dedicated to research (ie, A research institute full of minions under Mathilde's leadership) would look like, if Mathilde was to run this. Essentially, it allows Mathilde to convert the 1.5AP she currently spends on the Duckling Club + Eight Peaks and allows her to apply it to any general Research actions. Effectively, this means she can spend that 1.5AP on three research actions without any restrictions. As I understand it, in the status quo, you can't actually invite use the Duckling Club actions for example, to research Ulgu Tongs or AV without splitting credit. Spending the Great Deed on the Branch College makes it possible, with all credit going to Mathilde as the head of the Research Institute.

As an AV advocate who has to fight research AP wars to get AV researched, I hope you could see why even spending the Great Deed to get permission for a Branch College is an extremely valuable investment. There is no spell to give Mathilde more time, only the magic of an organization of minions behind your back.

And an entire College for all Eight winds should take way more than a handful of rooms. We aren't talking our current book club here.

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We passed up on a chance to completely short circuit this issue this vote. My suspicion is that for what it matters, outfitting the College is within Mathilde's means.

@BoneyM Given that "AP cost" is being thrown around, would building the Branch College building actions fall into Tower/Penthouse purchases? After all the first activities of the proto-Research Institute took place in Mathilde's towers, including the deed of unlocking Queekish that netted her the second Great Deed.

Secondly, since so many people in the thread have thrown around the idea that Mathilde could slowly outfit the Branch College over time with her own resources/the research products produced by the Branch, etc, is outfitting a Branch within Mathilde's means?

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

As an AV advocate who has to fight research AP wars to get AV researched, I hope you could see why even spending the Great Deed to get permission for a Branch College is an extremely valuable investment.

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now that's just unfair, welding my love of AV to sway me to the dark side, how could you!

...

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So... what should we call our Bloodbowl team? and I assume we will have guy in a wolf suit as the mascot.

 

[BeepSmile]

So, how do people feel about spending the Boon on a branch college?

The one thing we can't give Mathilde more of is time... At least personally.

Professional teams of wizards that we can order about, on the other hand, should seriously open up possibilities for our wizard actions. Some of the options we had on this very turn should become feasible to do in-house.

Given the recent clarification on how it'd be if we run it, it looks tremendously appealing.

Click to shrink...

My desire: Transcendent boon on a "book repository that has some small (20-25% libary function, can be argued up to 40%)
+
Two Great Boons on a branch (focus: research) college at K8P, One for the building/outfitting (-books, which come form the TB repository ) and the other to gets wizards to come do... stuff.

We can spend normal College and Dwarf favours on building additional specialised towers and such.
(Though I dunno if BoneyM wants to go down that route. I for one am enjoying Pillars of Eternity, and just got my Stronghold)

After the conservatives fuck off, of course.
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Unrelated; It would have been amazing if the Waystone project could have been done before the Expedition:
"So how did you contribute"
"Well, I facilitated the actions that lead to the chaos wastes receding a bit overall, making the general area a bit less hazardous than it would be"

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Book Boon gets you more books... but does it get you significantly more relevant books, for what we are doing? I think probably no.

It's fine to want a bunch of books for their own sake, but a college branch would be so incredibly useful for the magical side of things. The book boon simply has so many books that the overwhelming majority will never be of use to us, or anyone even close to us. Because dwarfen perfectionist demands him try and collect every single book on every single subject.

To say nothing of far, far more opportunity for interesting things to happen when we tell Belegar we want a College of Magic, instead of a library. Big or small, a library is a library.

It's more useful and more interesting. Imagine being able to regularly drop multiple AP on research, and far reaching research too.

@edit: Fuck, we could get a Bloodbowl team!

Secondly, since so many people in the thread have thrown around the idea that Mathilde could slowly outfit the Branch College over time with her own resources/the research products produced by the Branch, etc, is outfitting a Branch within Mathilde's means?

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Also relevant is keeping it running.

And, how would something solely built by Mathilde compare to a Boon College.

 

[Chlof]

So... what should we call our Bloodbowl team?

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Mathilde's Miscellaneous Miscreants

 

[Ericwinter]

People coming to visit and talk shop is wildly different from coming to become an employee.

And an entire College for all Eight winds should take way more than a handful of rooms. We aren't talking our current book club here.

Fundamentally, the reach of Karak 8 Peaks far, far surpasses our own.

And, the most critical issue is still the sheer time it'd take to set it all up.

I do think waiting to see how the Waystone thing pans out is a good idea before doing this, because that's potentially our grand opening project.

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First off, you probably missed this:

Yes.

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Which was in response to me asking explicitly we would get people coming to us for jobs. Second, sure... if we were looking to build a full size college with a significant chunk of the other eight joining up. Personally, given how it has been repeatedly mentioned how hard and rare it is to get even Journeymen in any great numbers, I can't see us getting more than a few dozen other wizards at absolute most, nor should we need it.

 

[Boney]

@BoneyM Given that "AP cost" is being thrown around, would building the Branch College building actions fall into Tower/Penthouse purchases? After all the first activities of the proto-Research Institute took place in Mathilde's towers, including the deed of unlocking Queekish that netted her the second Great Deed.

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I'd work out the exact mechanics if it became the course the quest voted to set out upon.

Secondly, since so many people in the thread have thrown around the idea that Mathilde could slowly outfit the Branch College over time with her own resources/the research products produced by the Branch, etc, is outfitting a Branch within Mathilde's means?

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This seems like a 'how long is a piece of string' question. A small branch? Yes. A huge branch? No.