Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[me.me.here]

Btw, @everyone going for Gehenna in hopes of getting more AP somewhere down the line: I am pretty sure that this is not in the cards for OOC reasons alone. Turns already often take 4+ chapters now and iirc BoneyM has expressed in the past that he doesn't really want to push it further.

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I don't think it'll gain us AP, I think it'll save us AP. Specifically, because it's more of a tool than a research goal of its own. It opens up a ton of new doors for research, but those doors are almost all new ways of approaching something else we want to do - we already want to invent new Ulgu spells, we already want to spend time enchanting neat stuff, we already want to build certain tools like the Cartography Project or the Sevirscope.

We essentially get 2 for 1 when we apply these insights to any of those tasks by both researching thinking magic and working on developing another of our interests, IMO.

First of all, we have explicit WoG confirmation that Ulgu AI is not a dead end. Second, there's no way in hell that a sevirscope would provide any kind of standardized perception because wizards are all very different people and therefore enchant differently. Any AI created by one wizard is going to have very different windsight than an AI created by a different one because magic works for them differently.

Any kind of standardized high def sevirscope would basically depend on someone with Mathilde-gradd windsight doing nothing but churning the things out which is a frankly terrible use of your (extremely skilled) enchanter's time when they could be doing basically anything else.

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I think you're unnecessarily conflating "create a standardized perception" with "can be produced to show identical results in each and every case".

We know for a fact that Master/Apprentice pairs often share a lot of their perspectives on magic, and it's very likely that sevirscopes would enable something similar on a more widespread scale - after all, the very first thing someone tasked with producing additional sevirscopes is going to do is take a look at the original one (both to see how it's done as well as to get an idea of what's being asked for). So even if not identical sevirscopes are highly likely to give very similar results in many cases due to that spreading perspective, which would be good enough in terms of being a common point of reference that calling it a Colleges-wide standard isn't too far off.

 

[Angelform]

I would like to present an argument for learning MMAPP before we go to Ulthuan.

My reasoning:
MMAPP is an incredibly useful spell, the sort of thing that every military commander in the Old World wishes they had available full time. Yet humans had to invent it. Or said another way, Loremaster Teclis doesn't know it. (I suspect that something similar had been invented a dozen times by elven Apprentices. Who then proudly present their projection to their professors only to get bonked on the head and told to learn Illusion.)

Any elf Mage worthy of the title has no need of MMAPP. However while most elves are not mages, they are all the equivalent of perpetuals. It is likely that many of them could learn a Lesser grade spell without too much difficulty. Most elves would never accept teaching from a human but Shadow Warriors? They might put practicality above pride.

 

[consequences]

Read the the thread like everyone else.

But for the record, its supposed to help Kragg figure out golden age magic/rune hybrid stuff.

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Or Thorek. Or non wizard scholars. The long term potential benefit is actually kind of nuts.

 

[Valmond]

Even if the sevirscopes are not standardized, they will be useful.
Because you can write your notes on magical effects, and make notes based in this specific sevirscope, so anyone who wants to study your work just needs to access to that specific sevirscope, and if colleges have a number of publicly available sevirscopes in their labs, those can be used to help standardize magical research.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Well, maybe, If it can be proven that you can standardize wind sight (at lest a little bit) I feel its something you only need to get rolling, the people in charge of teaching in the college will do the rest.

even if mathy never makes another, the teaching wizards will be able to make their own. not as good maybe, but it would start the process of standard wind sight.

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WEll the issue is I suspect that if you wanted to do what I suggested you'd need enough that all apprentices are learning using Mathilde made windsight scopes. Otherwise if other people make them it'll have to much variance at least early on assuming you could do things that way.

Unless of course you can't standardize wind sight.

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One of the things we were told is that our apprentices will likely be able to learn magics we make more easily than any one else because we'd be training them to follow the path we've been down.

 

[Humbaba]

I would like to present an argument for learning MMAPP before we go to Ulthuan.

My reasoning:
MMAPP is an incredibly useful spell, the sort of thing that every military commander in the Old World wishes they had available full time. Yet humans had to invent it. Or said another way, Loremaster Teclis doesn't know it. (I suspect that something similar had been invented a dozen times by elven Apprentices. Who then proudly present their projection to their professors only to get bonked on the head and told to learn Illusion.)

Any elf Mage worthy of the title has no need of MMAPP. However while most elves are not mages, they are all the equivalent of perpetuals. It is likely that many of them could learn a Lesser grade spell without too much difficulty. Most elves would never accept teaching from a human but Shadow Warriors? They might put practicality above pride.

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I see literally no reason to waste extremely precious AP learning how to do something we can already do in an effort to maybe, possibly, if the stars align, be thought of as an ever so slightly more intelligent puppy than average rather than focusing on things like our swordsmanship or psychological warfare traits, which are both more likely to impress them and also decrease our chances of being murdered by dark elves.

If they're really impressed by it and can't figure out their own version quickly with their centuries of experience then the colleges would be downright eager to trade it to them. Heck, take a scroll of instructions with you if you want (and have permission), but I see no real reason to spend AP on it. Frankly I don't even really see any reason to learn it if we ever do the Karak map project since our enchanting skills have advanced so much.

If we could still increase our magic from learning the remaining spells I might think differently, but by itself the spell adds no utility to Mathilde's toolkit (which is only really a possible argument for cloak activity).

 

[picklepikkl]

If we could still increase our magic from learning the remaining spells I might think differently, but by itself the spell adds no utility to Mathilde's toolkit (which is only really a possible argument for cloak activity).

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We can attempt to learn Cloak Activity, MMAPP, and Shadow of Death in one action. QM okayed it, since one is a Lesser Magic, one is Partially Known, and one is a weaker version of a spell we already know.

Now, that's not by itself an argument for spending that action, but it means that if we ever go "hrm, I want one of those," we should do the math on whether it's worth it or not based on getting all three, not based on that one alone.

(Personally I don't see the value in the MMAPP for Nagarythe, because the MMAP is Ulgu-aligned and they're all Ulgu-users, but it's definitely worth it if and when we ever do the Cartography project, because if we build the enchantment on the MMAPP rather than the MMAP, other wizards can help create and maintain it.)

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

WEll the issue is I suspect that if you wanted to do what I suggested you'd need enough that all apprentices are learning using Mathilde made windsight scopes. Otherwise if other people make them it'll have to much variance at least early on assuming you could do things that way.

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I would see a lot of variance as a big win. as that variance might lower with each generation or two.

magic education in the empire is currently at 'absolute' variance.

education reform is rarely a one step improvement.

plus, magic sight falls under a lot of different general ways as well as levels. (Pan is touch while Johnna is metal sight)

even at the apex, there might be a need for many different types of the scope. as Mathy version might not fit everyones style.

my point is, even just sending out a paper on the scope with a section on its potational use for training students will start a process of improvement. we don't need to do all the lifting.

assuming it can work that way.

 

[Humbaba]

We can attempt to learn Cloak Activity, MMAPP, and Shadow of Death in one action. QM okayed it, since one is a Lesser Magic, one is Partially Known, and one is a weaker version of a spell we already know.

Now, that's not by itself an argument for spending that action, but it means that if we ever go "hrm, I want one of those," we should do the math on whether it's worth it or not based on getting all three, not based on that one alone.

(Personally I don't see the value in the MMAPP for Nagarythe, because the MMAP is Ulgu-aligned and they're all Ulgu-users, but it's definitely worth it if and when we ever do the Cartography project, because if we build the enchantment on the MMAPP rather than the MMAP, other wizards can help create and maintain it.)

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The thing about learning them all in one action is new to me, as far as I knew the gatcha was gone and we were still stuck with one spell per action.

That said where are you getting the information that using MMAP prevents other wizards from either helping create or maintain it? Since Mathilde has wind herder having others contribute to the creation shouldn't be an issue at all.

Following on from that, if it even needs maintenance* I would expect that using windherder would be a much larger impediment to any maintenance from other wizards than the more personal version of MMAP being used in it's construction.

*Again I don't know really know where this has come from? We have a lot of big artefacts in the setting that never seem to need maintenance.

 

[ReImagined]

Deliberative Learning, An Apprentice's Quest - Character Creation Part 2

When the shadows called, you answered their summons. In a certain manner of thinking about it, at least. The Grey Order's looming guardians were not unaccustomed to that moniker, and when they detected your work, well. It wasn't a suggestion for you to come along. You were (Choose ONE):

()[ORIGIN] a street rat, scraping together a plan with your crew (+Martial, +Intrigue, -Learning)
()[ORIGIN] a merchant's child, reading through your father's ledgers (+Diplomacy, +Stewardship, -Martial)
()[ORIGIN] a knight's page, attending to your assigned duties (+Learning, +Piety, -Intrigue)

when the magic came, and it caused such a commotion that you were quite lucky they came when they did. You were tested and judged, and when the dust settled, you found yourself enjoying new 'accomodations' in Altdorf, far away from everybody and everything you'd ever known. Well, except for that one thing. You'd managed to keep (Choose ONE):

()[KEEPSAKE] an old whistle. A reminder of the promise you should remember. (???)
()[KEEPSAKE] a small key. Maybe one day you would find out what it unlocks. (???)
()[KEEPSAKE] an iron ring. Something steady and strong you could hold on to. (???)

When the time for lessons came, you weren't very enthusiastic. But then they brought up: (Choose TWO. Unlocks Sub-vote):

()[TALENT] weaponry (+Martial trait)
()[TALENT] language (+Diplomacy trait)
()[TALENT] mathematics (+Stewardship trait)
()[TALENT] history (+Learning trait)
()[TALENT] acting (+Intrigue trait)
()[TALENT] faith (+Piety trait)

and you soaked it in like a sponge before asking for more. And then came your master, who saw and took an interest and would be taking over your instruction now that you had acquired a rudimentary grasp of the basics(Choose ONE):

()[MAGISTER] Hans Schliemann, Archaeologist (Start in Altdorf, your master has University contacts)
()[MAGISTER] Elma Engel, Imperial Envoy to Miragliano (Start in Altdorf, your master has Tilean contacts)
()[MAGISTER] Walter Walther, Spymaster of Hochland (Start in Hochland, your master has Hochlandian contacts)
(X)[MAGISTER] Mathilde Weber, Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks (Start in Karak Eight Peaks, your master has Dwarven contacts)
()[MAGISTER] Grey, ??? (Start in Altdorf, your master has ???)

But even then, you knew you had a problem. The potential of magic was limitless... but you were not. (Choose ONE):

()[LIMIT] POWER. Could you really claim to be a wizard when you were still struggling to muster the power for Marsh Lights?
()[LIMIT] CONTROL. Magic came easily when you called. Too easily, and it wasn't long before the first miscasts...
()[LIMIT] DESIRE. You couldn't help it if your heart raced a little every time an attractive specimen walked by, or if you stayed just a little too long at the bar! What's an apprentice to do, not indulge in such fine pleasures?
()[LIMIT] LOYALTY. While some might be satisfied with the purpose the College offers, you had other objectives in mind. But did your master suspect?
()[LIMIT] REFUSE. Just kidding. You acknowledged no such limits. There was nothing you couldn't do with enough effort... right?

No matter. You could worry about that later. For now, you were an official Apprentice. It was time to start learning.

- The choices you make here will form a baseline, but your stats and traits will grow as you do. You are, after all, an apprentice.
- Voting will be by line, with approval voting allowed.
- There will be a one hour moratorium.

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*snip*

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Alright. We've got some choices to make. Since we ended up going with a wizard apparentice, that's most of my planning out the window. Those [KEEPSAKE] options look interesting, big question marks on all of them.

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The talents obviously correspond to stats. Weapons for Martial, Languages for Diplo, etc. Since we're a Grey wizard, we should get at least a bit of intrigue and diplomacy. I wonder what the subvote's going to be.

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The talents obviously correspond to stats. Weapons for Martial, Languages for Diplo, etc. Since we're a Grey wizard, we should get at least a bit of intrigue and diplomacy.

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The invistext mentions traits, so I assume that's what the subvote's about.

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There's invisitext? Oh. Wow. So it's going to be one of those quests...

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Those Magisters seem like they're going to be interesting characters. Mathilde Weber is a dwarf friend. Also, Hans Schliemann, Archaeologist? I wonder how Troy's going to work in WHF.

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Isn't Karak Eight Peaks supposed to be a fallen hold? And why is a wizard serving as Loremaster anyways?

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Those Magisters seem like they're going to be interesting characters. Mathilde Weber is a dwarf friend. Also, Hans Schliemann, Archaeologist? I wonder how Troy's going to work in WHF.

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Isn't Karak Eight Peaks supposed to be a fallen hold? And why is a wizard serving as Loremaster anyways?

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QM did say it was going to be an AU with butterfly effects.

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Walter Walther has to be a fake name.

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Walter Walther has to be a fake name.

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Maybe, but this is WHF. Ridiculous naming conventions are a staple.

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Let's talk limitations. POWER's an obvious no, since we'll probably get stuck as a Perpetual Apprentice. CONTROL means miscasts, which means a whole cavalcade of bad possibilities. If we were in any College that wasn't the Grey Order, LOYALTY might be doable, but trying to con the super-spy-assassins is a bad idea. DESIRE sounds like we'd face a lot of issues in discipline and waste a lot of time. That leaves REFUSE, which doesn't sound too bad. I don't think it means no limitations, but it could be some combination of the above. Or if we take the text at face value, over-ambition?

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You couldn't help it if your heart raced a little every time an attractive specimen walked by, or if you stayed just a little too long at the bar! What's an apprentice to do, not indulge in such fine pleasures?

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That sounds like the opposite of a drawback. Let's do it.

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Spoiler: A/N

How to write a negaverse for a character that doesn't exist yet: They're still in character creation

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

The thing about learning them all in one action is new to me, as far as I knew the gatcha was gone and we were still stuck with one spell per action.

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Boney Ok'd it after I sacrificed six hundred and sixty six goats to them in a 10 hour ritual.

 

[ReImagined]

That said where are you getting the information that using MMAP prevents other wizards from either helping create or maintain it? Since Mathilde has wind herder having others contribute to the creation shouldn't be an issue at all.

Following on from that, if it even needs maintenance* I would expect that using windherder would be a much larger impediment to any maintenance from other wizards than the more personal version of MMAP being used in it's construction.

*Again I don't know really know where this has come from. We have a lot of big artefacts in the setting that never seem to need maintenance.

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MMAP is Ulgu only, so it would take another Ulgu-manipulating wizard to update the enchantment. Using MMAPP instead allows any wizard to modify it. There's some use cases if a new enemy signature detector is needed, or if the map needs to be redrawn to reflect new construction. There's an example in-quest when Edda was hanging balls of colored wool to update the map when we weren't available, though that was just the spell and not an enchantment.

 

[Humbaba]

MMAP is Ulgu only, so it would take another Ulgu-manipulating wizard to update the enchantment. Using MMAPP instead allows any wizard to modify it. There's some use cases if a new enemy signature detector is needed, or if the map needs to be redrawn to reflect new construction. There's an example in-quest when Edda was hanging balls of colored wool to update the map when we weren't available, though that was just the spell and not an enchantment.

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That doesn't make sense.

Yes, lesser magics are spells which all the colleges can cast, but they achieve the same base effects in entirely different ways, using their own winds.

though all the Colleges hold these spells in common, each performs them differently due to using different Winds to achieve the same effect.

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You would have to have an Ulgu mage using the map to modify the base because another type of mage would end up hitting the Ulgu with their own wind and causing Dhar. It actually gets worse if we've used windherder as anyone not Mathilde has to work even more carefully around the existing magic streams.

Updating the map on a more temporary basis (like with the wool) without needing a wizard present at all would presumably be part of making the enchantment. Allowing manipulation by the Dwarves being one of the points of the project.

 

[ReImagined]

That doesn't make sense.

Yes, lesser magics are spells which all the colleges can cast, but they achieve the same base effects in entirely different ways, using their own winds.

You would have to have an Ulgu mage using the map to modify the base because another type of mage would end up hitting the Ulgu with their own wind and causing Dhar. It actually gets worse if we've used windherder as anyone not Mathilde has to work even more carefully around the existing magic streams.

Updating the map on a more temporary basis (like with the wool) without needing a wizard present at all would presumably be part of making the enchantment. Allowing manipulation by the Dwarves being one of the points of the project.

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A solution could be as simple as pressing a button, wiping the Ulgu away, and drawing in Hysh or whatnot. But we know it's at least possible for things to be wind-agnostic like the Staff of Volans or the Impossible March of the Damned Soldier. The staff works on you regardless of wind, and and that ritual increases exponentially without regard for what type of wizard you are even when casting together. You do raise a good point about letting non-wizards update, though.

 

[Glau]

That doesn't make sense.

Yes, lesser magics are spells which all the colleges can cast, but they achieve the same base effects in entirely different ways, using their own winds.

You would have to have an Ulgu mage using the map to modify the base because another type of mage would end up hitting the Ulgu with their own wind and causing Dhar. It actually gets worse if we've used windherder as anyone not Mathilde has to work even more carefully around the existing magic streams.

Updating the map on a more temporary basis (like with the wool) without needing a wizard present at all would presumably be part of making the enchantment. Allowing manipulation by the Dwarves being one of the points of the project.

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I feel like we've gotten hints otherwise, specifically with the marsh light that Mathilde used when talking to the dragon. It was, if I remember correctly, 'too simple to have a wind affinity', and an ulgu-cast spell reacted to the hysh rushing in by brightening noticeably, not curdling into dhar.

 

[Briefvoice]

Honestly, this whole map business sounds like something that could be solved with SUPERIOR DWARVEN CRAFTSMANSHIP rather than magic. I can pretty easily imagine the engineering guild putting together some intricate, easily modifiable model of all K8P areas that can get 95% of the function and that doesn't take a human wizard to operate.

 

[BurnNote]

Honestly, this whole map business sounds like something that could be solved with SUPERIOR DWARVEN CRAFTSMANSHIP rather than magic. I can pretty easily imagine the engineering guild putting together some intricate, easily modifiable model of all K8P areas that can get 95% of the function and that doesn't take a human wizard to operate.

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That kind of depends on which version of the map we're talking about. Most basic version, maybe, though the ability to modify and update on the fly would be hard to match.
The version that updates automatically? Well, they can absolutely do that in principle. They have done that. One of the lost wonders of the ancestors was basically a map around Karaz-A-Karak. However, I rather doubt they've retained the ability, because that's a lost wonder.

 

[storryeater]

I think it is optimal to take K8P and eat it.

Then we can just use the ulgu inside us both for the constantly updating map AND the monitoring.

 

[Fayhem]

Wanted to type this idea up while I was thinking of it, even though it's only at most semi-relevant to the current vote. Haven't been following the non-update parts of the thread for very long at all, so if I'm missing relevant context or reinventing somebody's wheel then my bad.

Basically, somebody was mentioning that Kragg doesn't pass on any of his advanced runic knowledge, really. He won't take apprentices. And that's a tragedy, because he's an amazing store of runic knowledge that even a master would kill to learn from. But what if he didn't have to take an apprentice to pass his knowledge on? At least as I understand his motivations, he won't take apprentices bc he doesn't have the patience to deal with their congenital inability to meet his standards (if there's more going on there, lmk ofc). And obviously just writing it down is unacceptable, because written works could fall into the hands of dwarves who weren't worthy of that knowledge or, even more unthinkably, non-dwarves.

But. Only dwarves possess runic knowledge now. What if Kragg could be convinced to record his knowledge on, let's say, stone tablets that only show what's been engraved on them to somebody who can demonstrate they already possess a minimum level of runic knowledge? No non-dwarf could access those without a dwarven runic master unlocking them for them, and if a dwarven runic master were willing to betray the secrecy of runic knowledge to non-dwarves (which seems to be basically unthinkable, regardless) then they could just teach them themselves. Kragg could decide what level of runic knowledge was required to unlock them, so he can preserve his commitment to maintaining his standards (even if they're very high, any way for somebody to learn his so-advanced-it's-unique personal knowledge is an improvement). And they'd be basically completely inaccessible to any non-dwarf, especially if the tablets were stored in (let's say) the Karak Eight Peaks Armory, which withstood three thousand years of hostile occupation without opening to a non-dwarf.

It would still probably be a tough sell, I want to make it clear I'm aware of that. Kragg is famously stubborn by dwarven standards. But if we did create the Seviroscope for him so he can study Bok and learn the runes used to make him. And if we presented it to him specifically as a gift from the Loremaster of K8P, with the appropriate amount of contextual hinting that gosh it sure is great to repay gifts of knowledge in kind... well then, we might be able to get him to do it as a way of repaying the debt to K8P.

Which I think would be a huge coup for our Karak. Just imagine being able to present ourselves as the sole repository of the runic knowledge of the legendary Kragg the Grim - the only place in the entire Karaz Ankor where a runesmith might have a chance of learning what he knows. We could draw in more runesmiths from, well, basically everywhere (okay, maybe not Karak Azul, since they already have Thorek and he does take apprentices) which would be a huge boost for our hold. Even if K8P has to swear an oath to never allow access to said tablets to anyone who Kragg specifically wants to disallow (AKA, Thorek and his apprentices) then it'd still be worth it. I really, really want to at least take a swing at pulling this off.

P.S.: I do still like the idea of crafting a Seviroscope ourselves for Kragg, so I'm not going to vote for spending our Gold College lump sum transaction on that. But we might want to pop a Great Deed reward to at least get the research base taken care of so we can skip the "aimless flailing" stage of R&D.

 

[Mopman43]

Basically, somebody was mentioning that Kragg doesn't pass on any of his advanced runic knowledge, really. He won't take apprentices. And that's a tragedy, because he's an amazing store of runic knowledge that even a master would kill to learn from. But what if he didn't have to take an apprentice to pass his knowledge on? At least as I understand his motivations, he won't take apprentices bc he doesn't have the patience to deal with their congenital inability to meet his standards (if there's more going on there, lmk ofc). And obviously just writing it down is unacceptable, because written works could fall into the hands of dwarves who weren't worthy of that knowledge or, even more unthinkably, non-dwarves.

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I don't think it's so much a matter of patience as... well, Dwarfs have big hang-ups over someone being worthy of teaching. That is, if you take an apprentice, and they mess up, that's on them, but if they mess up on what you taught them, that's on you- either because you didn't teach them right, or because you shouldn't have taken them on in the first place. You can't just tell people things, they have to have earned it, have to have proved that they're worthy of it.

Kragg's problem is that his standards are so high, he'd never accept anyone that could try. He's the greatest Runelord in the Karaz Ankor, and his apprentice would have to be the greatest apprentice in the Karaz Ankor. A dwarf would have to be Thugni reborn, a natural genius not to be seen for another millennia, before he might consent to teach them. If he did that thing you suggested with the stone tablets, the only one who'd ever be able to read it would be Kragg. No-one else would be good enough.

 

[Shovern]

Kragg's problem is that his standards are so high, he'd never accept anyone that could try. He's the greatest Runelord in the Karaz Ankor, and his apprentice would have to be the greatest apprentice in the Karaz Ankor. A dwarf would have to be Thugni reborn, a natural genius not to be seen for another millennia, before he might consent to teach them. If he did that thing you suggested with the stone tablets, the only one who'd ever be able to read it would be Kragg. No-one else would be good enough.

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While I have doubts that Kragg would ever go for it, if he somehow did then even if it were the most difficult trial that only he could pass, then it would still be an improvement over the status quo. As it stands right now, that knowledge is effectively lost, with this theoretical test, then there is at least a chance that Thorek might get good enough in the next 500 years to get access to said knowledge. Or the even less likely chance of the Dawi getting another Alaric The Mad or other comparable genius.

I just can't imagine Kragg going for it though. I don't know if he would meet his own standards.

 

[consequences]

I don't think it's so much a matter of patience as... well, Dwarfs have big hang-ups over someone being worthy of teaching. That is, if you take an apprentice, and they mess up, that's on them, but if they mess up on what you taught them, that's on you- either because you didn't teach them right, or because you shouldn't have taken them on in the first place. You can't just tell people things, they have to have earned it, have to have proved that they're worthy of it.

Kragg's problem is that his standards are so high, he'd never accept anyone that could try. He's the greatest Runelord in the Karaz Ankor, and his apprentice would have to be the greatest apprentice in the Karaz Ankor. A dwarf would have to be Thugni reborn, a natural genius not to be seen for another millennia, before he might consent to teach them. If he did that thing you suggested with the stone tablets, the only one who'd ever be able to read it would be Kragg. No-one else would be good enough.

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Simply giving the runesmiths a seemingly impossible goal to strive for would still be an improvement over the actually impossible goal of them reading the mind of a dead man.

Well, actually impossible barring Omegahugger being the last poster standing in the thread anyway.

 

[Fayhem]

I mean, I'm aware we'd have to get Kragg to bend, which is something he's famously... let's go for understatement and say disinclined to do. But we've also seen him weigh his distaste/reservations against his sense of dwarven obligation in the past, and fall on the side of paying back debts (it's how we've gotten our Favor items from him). If we just pitched the idea to him without something major helping sway him, then he'd probably either decline or set standards so high it's functionally almost the same, like you said.

But if it's in the context of presenting him with a unique tool that could enable him to really tackle the problem he expected to spend the rest of his life banging his head against in complete futility - a tool that he, or any dwarf, could literally never have produced - well, that's a hell of an example of "something major helping sway him". I think at minimum we'd have a real shot, and I think the worst-case (plausible) scenario is that he just says no and then probably does something else amazing for us/K8P. I don't think there's a downside to trying, and if it actually works there's a huge upside. We should go for it.

 

[consequences]

To unpack a little with less friendly ribbing, say a thousand years from now, another dawi the equal of Kragg at runecraft comes along, even if it takes them another five hundred years or more to actually get on his level. Unless his knowledge base and path to mastery exactly mirrors Kragg's, there will still be a net gain to the runesmith knowledge base after he decodes the tablets of nearly impossible complexity.

Hope for the future beats morose acceptance that the past will never be equalled.

 

[Shovern]

I mean, I'm aware we'd have to get Kragg to bend, which is something he's famously... let's go for understatement and say disinclined to do. But we've also seen him weigh his distaste/reservations against his sense of dwarven obligation in the past, and fall on the side of paying back debts (it's how we've gotten our Favor items from him). If we just pitched the idea to him without something major helping sway him, then he'd probably either decline or set standards so high it's functionally almost the same, like you said.

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When he first made us gear, he was comparing his distaste for crafting for a manling with his distaste for the Karaz Ankor being in debt. In this case he Would be comparing his distaste for (in his mind) breaking Dawi tradition and potential Sacred Rules, against owing us a favor. I'm not sure that calculus will give us a favorable result. Like I have no doubt he'd get us something, maybe even teach us that language Boney has been mentioning. But betraying a core belief of his? Doubtful.

EDIT: I still want to make the Scope though.