Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Sinsystems]

So hey, new idea that almost makes the purple sun plan gain traction with me, only barely failing because I think the dragon plan will win anyway, because the dragon plan is really cool, because it'll still work way better against any sort of tunneling or underground target, and because if I wanted a Purple Sun I'd just try the cheaper method of hiring a battle wizard:

Wouldn't a Purple Sun also be great against those dragon Ogres we passed on the way here?
I've been thinking that that was too interesting to never do anything about it, so they're likely to become relevant to us eventually, and a doom stack of Dragon Ogres in Total War Warhammer apparently kills absolutely everything, so I'd expect them to be a terrifying field army.

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The Dragon Ogres aren't as dangerous as normal due to the Volcanic Lightning, as when we did some research we noticed that they were sickly as a result of the Volcanic Lightning being infused with Bright Magic rather than the Heavens Magic they need.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

The Dragon Ogres aren't as dangerous as normal due to the Volcanic Lightning, as when we did some research we noticed that they were sickly as a result of the Volcanic Lightning being infused with Bright Magic rather than the Heavens Magic they need.

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Sickly or not, they're still Dragon Ogres.

 

[Alratan]

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

Something I really like about this plan is that we know who one of the foremost human casters of Transformation of Kadon to turn into a dragon is, and Belegar's commission is probably enticing enough to get him out here. I'd like to see the Supreme Patriarch again. Most Amber wizards probably aren't patient enough to hang out at a dwarven Karak to build one either, and we've seen it's possible to commute almost daily from Karak Eight Peaks to Altdorf if he needs to.

Also, you know, being able to turn someone into a dragon on tap could be useful for much more than just defence. That enormous level of strength could be handy in various construction projects, and it would also serve as a way to project power against the capital M monsters of the World's Edge.

Have people discussed giving the transformed dragon a runic item with Spelleater or similar runes, so it can't be counterspelled after it's first cast? In that case it would be amazing in general, particularly for scouting.

As a side note, items like the Giant Helm exist. People aren't completely opposed to having Transformation of Kadon cast on them. Other people have commissioned magic items that do it and used it themselves.

 

[BurnNote]

So hey, new idea that almost makes the purple sun plan gain traction with me, only barely failing because I think the dragon plan will win anyway, because the dragon plan is really cool, because it'll still work way better against any sort of tunneling or underground target, and because if I wanted a Purple Sun I'd just try the cheaper method of hiring a battle wizard:

Wouldn't a Purple Sun also be great against those dragon Ogres we passed on the way here?
I've been thinking that that was too interesting to never do anything about it, so they're likely to become relevant to us eventually, and a doom stack of Dragon Ogres in Total War Warhammer apparently kills absolutely everything, so I'd expect them to be a terrifying field army.

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I wouldn't rely on Total Warhammer for the danger of things. I'd trust the TT more than that, and the general flavor more than that.

As for dragon ogres, they're definitely scary, especially the shaggoths, but it's the sort of scary the dwarfs can handle reliably without needing extremely dangerous and expensive umgi magic. Cannon, guns and disciplines will do just fine. I think the more useful counter for them would probably be something like Father of Thorns to cut down on their mobility and blunt the charge, but that's only nice to have, and the dwarfs could handle it.

Notably, the ogres close by don't seem to pose a huge threat right now because they're sickly and not motivated to leave. Somebody should be keeping an eye on them so that that doesn't change, but that's something for the rangers.

The reason the dragon is a big deal, is because the normal dwarf answers to big scary monsters don't work well. Normally they just get shot to death by the artillery, and the size just makes them better targets. But canons would be nearly impossible to aim at a flying beast. Guns would do better (though it's still difficult), but the dragon is so tough that they'll have a hard time hurting it. Crossbows even more so. It's highly mobile, so it can easily kite the slow dwarfs. If you bunch up, then you either eat a breath weapon or it starts casting something nasty on you. Give it space, and it'll heal itself. Corner it with anything less than a ton of elites, and it'll tear through them in seconds with the huge number of extremely nasty melee attacks.
You basically either need magic to tie it down and hit it with a save or die (the very low initiative is just about the only weakness), or else have some nasty mobile monster(s) of your own, neither of which the dwarfs can do well.

 

[Ericwinter]

Sickly or not, they're still Dragon Ogres.

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And one dragon can probably still kill more of them than one purple sun. It also doesn't really require the deployment of too many other forces to protect the altar, since throwing a dragon at something probably has better effective range than throwing a spell.

 

[Vebyast]

So hey, new idea that almost makes the purple sun plan gain traction with me, only barely failing because I think the dragon plan will win anyway, because the dragon plan is really cool, because it'll still work way better against any sort of tunneling or underground target, and because if I wanted a Purple Sun I'd just try the cheaper method of hiring a battle wizard:

Wouldn't a Purple Sun also be great against those dragon Ogres we passed on the way here?
I've been thinking that that was too interesting to never do anything about it, so they're likely to become relevant to us eventually, and a doom stack of Dragon Ogres in Total War Warhammer apparently kills absolutely everything, so I'd expect them to be a terrifying field army.

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If we're talking utility against the Dragon Ogres...

The Dragonification Altar is unique among proposed anti-dragon systems in that it is capable of projecting power.

Purple Sun, Chain Lightning, Bullet Hell, all static and limited to the K8P region, probably only part of the K8P region. Even if you build them as battle altars with intent to deploy them they have to get LoS, so they're not all that useful - you have to treat them basically like classical artillery and protect them from counter-battery fire and so on. Runic artillery has all the same problems but even more so.

A dragon, on the other hand, can fly quite a ways and then do quite a bit of damage before its timer runs down and it has to return. A small task force can move relatively quickly, strike from a distance, and return once the dragon completes its assault. The altar and its operators don't have to expose themselves to attack, and if they're rumbled before or after, a dragon is better at stopping a charge than a lightning bolt is. All of this means that it's possible to deploy the Dragonification Altar on offensive missions.

The Purple Sun tower is like having seeded your countryside with nuclear mines: Wipes out anything that attacks, but has a nasty tendency of also wiping out you with them. The Dragonification altar is like an aircraft carrier strike group: Primary use case in an all-up war is to blow up enemy fleets, and it's slightly less scary than a nuke, but it's also far more precise and you can use it to launch offensive missions when it's time to attack.

The best way to defend yourself from an attacking army is to hit it and destroy it before it's an army. Or to blow up its logistics. Or to force it to hunker down and defend its own territory instead of striking at yours. The Dragonification Altar, being able to project power, can do all of those.

 

[Alratan]

And one dragon can probably still kill more of them than one purple sun. It also doesn't really require the deployment of too many other forces to protect the altar, since throwing a dragon at something probably has better effective range than throwing a spell.

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In TT, Transformation of Kadon lasts until dispelled, which could be a long time if we have runic items to block dispelling.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

So, weird thing,

I was looking through the competitive forums for Warhammer fantasy and found out that the best shadow spell is not Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma, The Penumbral Pendulum or Pit of Shades.

its Okkam's Mindrazor: as its the greatest buff, if not the greatest spell, in the game. (at least in TT)

and we have two masteries that work with it, ( Blessed Hands and Shadow Dagger)

might be worth looking into when we finally have to bite the BM bullet.

 

[Valarauko]

[X] Plan Versatile

Dragon transformation is way too what-the-fuck and with too much potential to go wrong. Why SV, why do you have to be so fucking SV? It's nonsense and just strikes me as really frickin' dumb.

 

[Alratan]

Dragon transformation is way too what-the-fuck and with too much potential to go wrong. Why SV, why do you have to be so fucking SV? It's nonsense and just strikes me as really frickin' dumb.

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You can't really just drop that without explaining what you expect to go wrong that can't with any other battle magic.

 

[Valarauko]

You can't really just drop that without explaining what you expect to go wrong that can't with any other battle magic.

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Okay, fair.

I looked away from the thread for a while, and having come back I see this bizarre and vaguely horrifying plan that's somehow captured the thread's imagination. I am admittedly still catching up on discussion. This is mostly gut reaction and objection to something that (per personal preference) seems possibly shark-jumping.

It just strikes me as weird and crazy and bizarre and far too strange.

 

[Ericwinter]

In TT, Transformation of Kadon lasts until dispelled, which could be a long time if we have runic items to block dispelling.

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... that is fucking terrifying. Like, my main concern with this thing was time limits and people accidentally transforming back while still in the middle of a fight or something. If that's not a thing... wow, we can do so much more.

[X] Plan Versatile

Dragon transformation is way too what-the-fuck and with too much potential to go wrong. Why SV, why do you have to be so fucking SV? It's nonsense and just strikes me as really frickin' dumb.

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What exactly about it is dumb? It has about the same downsides as anything else, less even since a failure ends with one guy messed up rather than the numerous people other magic might effect and many more advantages.

Okay, fair.
I looked away from the thread for a while, and having come back I see this bizarre and vaguely horrifying plan that's somehow captured the thread's imagination. I am admittedly still catching up on discussion. This is mostly gut reaction and objection to something that (per personal preference) seems possibly shark-jumping.

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Yeah, I would suggest you finish reading through and see al the different arguments for and against. There's a lot more thought to the dragon then just "throw dragon at dragon".

 

[Alratan]

Okay, fair.
I looked away from the thread for a while, and having come back I see this bizarre and vaguely horrifying plan that's somehow captured the thread's imagination. I am admittedly still catching up on discussion. This is mostly gut reaction and objection to something that (per personal preference) seems possibly shark-jumping.

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Why's it shark jumping though? There are portable magic items that cast the same spell on their wearer.

 

[Andres]

The Dragon transformation also doesn't fizzle when dispelled after it is cast, and doesn't kill everyone in the vicinity if dispelled while being cast.

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It won't kill anyone if dispelled while cast. Interrupting a casting - whatever the spell - is completely safe the vast majority of times. Do it and, most of the time, the spell simply doesn't manifest - no induced miscast. Mathilde blowing up the waaagh was very much an exception to how counterspelling normally goes.

However, what you said is even more wrong in the context of this being a bound spell. Magic items in Divided Loyalty cannot miscast, for one. If they *could* miscast, they wouldn't explode like when normally casting a spell. If it were a normal magic item, a miscast would only ever destroy the item, doing no damage to anyone, and nothing else. However, since it's an altar, a miscast would just make it unable to fire the spell again for a bit.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Okay, fair.
I looked away from the thread for a while, and having come back I see this bizarre and vaguely horrifying plan that's somehow captured the thread's imagination. I am admittedly still catching up on discussion. This is mostly gut reaction and objection to something that (per personal preference) seems possibly shark-jumping.

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it is a case of;

'that obviously won't work.'

"Why?"

"well, that because... you can't... if you do that... huh...'

it's silly on the face of it, but all the moving parts work if we go by the rules set in the quest and canon in creating the doom tower.

the hardest wall will be getting the Amber Wizards to help, as unlike the eye we cant do this one all in grey college peer group.

and that's the same problem with the lightning tower

 

[Alratan]

that is fucking terrifying. Like, my main concern with this thing was time limits and people accidentally transforming back while still in the middle of a fight or something. If that's not a thing... wow, we can do so much more.

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It's not a thing on the TT, but we're not on the TT, of course. However, it is a particular feature of the spell that it last until someone successfuly dispels it, and here dispel is a spell of its own, and we know runic items that protect against spells targeting you exist. Give that to the transformed dragon and it would make sense for it to last until they want to transform back.

There's a couple of runic items we'd want the transformed dragon to have, a talisman that blocks spells, and something like a helm with three runes of iron, so the 'dragon' has regeneration so they're much less likely to die on transforming back.

If it wasn't so late I'd say we should look into adding that as an action to the plan, but we can do it next turn.

 

[Hydroplatypus]

[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon

I've come around to the dragon transformation plan

 

[BurnNote]

So, weird thing,

I was looking through the competitive forums for Warhammer fantasy and found out that the best shadow spell is not Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma, The Penumbral Pendulum or Pit of Shades.

its Okkam's Mindrazor: as its the greatest buff, if not the greatest spell, in the game. (at least in TT)

and we have two masteries that work with it, ( Blessed Hands and Shadow Dagger)

might be worth looking into when we finally have to bite the BM bullet.

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It's absolutely nasty if you have high leadership units around. It's best against high toughness units since it effectively boost strength, so certainly not bad against orks.

That said, there's good reason why we haven't gone after more BM, even though we have the permission. Reason one, it's freaking scary to learn. Reason two, it's scary to cast too. I think when we last asked, it was around fifty-fifty at best? It might have improved since, but it's certainly something that can easily blow up in your face. If nothing else, we should first get a staff for the magic boost. And if we really want to get into it, probably commission some support gear. So it's basically a mid to long term goal. And a lot of people feel Mathilde as ninja can do better than as artillery.

Also, Okkams Mindrazor is one of the hardest BM spells in general. Jumping straight to it might be ill advised.

There is one interesting possibility. We know Melkoth can cast the spell he invented safely and pretty much at will. So one appealing option would be to just invent our own BM spell (like turning into a shadow dragon, ehh?), and hope that is safer to cast. (The danger of experimentation can be more easily managed). But again, at the least we should get the staff bonus first.

the hardest wall will be getting the Amber Wizards to help, as unlike the eye we cant do this one all in grey college peer group.

and that's the same problem with the lightning tower

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Better, actually, since the relationship with the Ambers seems friendlier than with the Azyr.

I've come around to the dragon transformation plan

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That's a pretty common reaction. I hope Belegar will have the same.

 

[ChronOblivion]

At this point, many of my worries about impracticality have faded, and the major remaining one is "holy hell this will be very expensive". It won't be as expensive as the Eye of Gazul, but still. Belegar can't fund superweapons forever, and that money has opportunity cost.

I know this is going to happen, and really hope we won't get smacked for a stupid expensive idea.

 

[Alliterate]

If (Stewardship 20) Belegar as sponsor had an appropriations budget limit in mind, he should have specified when initiating the project.
He's seen the Tower(s) of DoomTM, this is on him.

So one appealing option would be to just invent our own BM spell (like turning into a shadow dragon, ehh?), and hope that is safer to cast.

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I think we'd have more (any?) success working on a 'Fog of War' related spell, given we explicitly have a trait for that, and thus explicitly not for other battlemagics like such shadow transformation.

Warrior of Fog: Appreciation of and focus on mastering the fickle fog of war. +2 martial. While in command, +10 bonus to scouting and moving forces unseen, +5 bonus to surprise attacks and ambushes. Unlocks creation of battlefield spells for revealing or concealing troop movements.

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'Suddenly, Dragon' indeed.

But if we wanted to create our own Battlemagic, there would probably be benefits to Learning A Proper BM Spell first (the Mystifying Miasma ties with our own foggy interpretation of Ulgu, and 'impaired effectiveness on the battlefield' ties very tangentially with Fog of War) and before we do that, Get A Staff for Magic 9.

 

[chocolote12]

I am beginning to suspect Oswald somehow picked up the Forgettable arcane mark with how easy it is to forget his presence.

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He's well rounded, but a military man with a mustache doesn't make an impact just by existing in the background, which is where he's been most of the time.

At this point, many of my worries about impracticality have faded, and the major remaining one is "holy hell this will be very expensive". It won't be as expensive as the Eye of Gazul, but still. Belegar can't fund superweapons forever, and that money has opportunity cost.

I know this is going to happen, and really hope we won't get smacked for a stupid expensive idea.

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Belegar has double infinite money. The first is from the coffers we uncovered, and the second will be from the contents of those vaults that he's going to quietly reclaim after nobody's looking.

 

[Ericwinter]

It's not a thing on the TT, but we're not on the TT, of course. However, it is a particular feature of the spell that it last until someone successfuly dispels it, and here dispel is a spell of its own, and we know runic items that protect against spells targeting you exist. Give that to the transformed dragon and it would make sense for it to last until they want to transform back.

There's a couple of runic items we'd want the transformed dragon to have, a talisman that blocks spells, and something like a helm with three runes of iron, so the 'dragon' has regeneration so they're much less likely to die on transforming back.

If it wasn't so late I'd say we should look into adding that as an action to the plan, but we can do it next turn.

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I remember asking the guy who did the math comparing stats with the Ice Dragon what the best ways to buff with runic items was, but can't remember their name. I think it was like a triple Rune of Warding, something with the Rune of Adamantine—not sure if that's correct—for toughness ten, and claw sheathes with like triple Runes of Striking For attack. That Iron runes sounds cool too though. Maybe put a couple of them with the Rune of Adamantine item? I don't really know how all the time things work, so sorry if that's nonsensical.
Still, can you imagine throwing what's essentially a slightly more powerful Ice Dragon minus magic but plus warding at, say, Karak Drazh? Because I remember the damage it did to the Skaven without even taking a scratch. Sure, Drazh's bigger and probably has more troops, but a whole lot of zero damage is just as useless as a little bit of zero damage. Plus most of their population is snotlings, as I recall, which is even worse for them.

 

[BurnNote]

Huh, looking at the plan, the next turn will be full of cool stuff. The dragon of course, and that's overshadowed the rest, but there's a ton of neat stuff there.

A couple of papers on fucking with Skaven that will likely be well received. Especially in light of dropping the fucking bombshell that is the dictionary. That'll turn a lot of thoughts towards "Fuck the Skaven", and drum up interest in anything related.

And we'll finally try to pull in Kragg to help with our research on the juice. That can only end amazing.

At this point, many of my worries about impracticality have faded, and the major remaining one is "holy hell this will be very expensive". It won't be as expensive as the Eye of Gazul, but still. Belegar can't fund superweapons forever, and that money has opportunity cost.

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Belegar has double infinite money. The first is from the coffers we uncovered, and the second will be from the contents of those vaults that he's going to quietly reclaim after nobody's looking.

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chocolote12 has already answered the money front, but I'll add it's actually triple infinite money, since he's also got the We and their silk.

On the favor front, I would guess he's doing very well too. He's king of the second biggest hold, which he reconquered. With shocking speed and lack of blood, even if it was just some podunk minor hold, not Karak Bloody Eight Peaks. Then broke a huge Waaagh on the next day, using one of the superweapons. Then got a huge train of workers because the High King couldn't help. And just last turn he dropped a groundbreaking intelligence asset on the other kings. Belegar has many problems, but buying power is not one of them.

Aside that, I think he'd gladly spent every coin and favor he can beg or borrow if it keeps his people safe. And Mathilde has shown that magical superweapons are a great way to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the upcoming assignments is something like "make me a superweapon to secure the underway".

 

[Alliterate]

He's king of the second biggest hold, which he(*) reconquered

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* He, or his lawfully delegated representative, for the other 5/8th.
More morosely, the second biggest hold is just as oversized and empty of life as Karaz-a-Karak.
Reconnecting K8P to the Rune of Azamar might have staved off the most immediate failure end state of the Dwarven Empire, but they're still facing demographic oblivion.

(New Great Work of Bokkul required!)

 

[ChronOblivion]

chocolote12 has already answered the money front, but I'll add it's actually triple infinite money, since he's also got the We and their silk.

On the favor front, I would guess he's doing very well too. He's king of the second biggest hold, which he reconquered. With shocking speed and lack of blood, even if it was just some podunk minor hold, not Karak Bloody Eight Peaks. Then broke a huge Waaagh on the next day, using one of the superweapons. Then got a huge train of workers because the High King couldn't help. And just last turn he dropped a groundbreaking intelligence asset on the other kings. Belegar has many problems, but buying power is not one of them.

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I suppose that's fair, but holy god I hope that the expenditure actually results in a return that's worth the investment.

Aside that, I think he'd gladly spent every coin and favor he can beg or borrow if it keeps his people safe. And Mathilde has shown that magical superweapons are a great way to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the upcoming assignments is something like "make me a superweapon to secure the underway".

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Oh god, oh fuck, we fucked up, when you regularly deliver superweapons, soon people expect you to do that on demand.