Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We had the Patriarch of the Amethyst College, but we don't really know exactly what happened to him. Other than it wasn't pretty.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Akasha
The Only Truth
- Location
- 「̛̛́́ ͏̨҉̕͏ ͏̶̴」
Probably blew himself up. At least he had the decency to do it in a cave under the enemy's base.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I'm sorry, but I'm too tired to tell if this is sarcasm or not, and rereading isn't helping any. Could you please say what you were saying again?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
He left a body, so definitely not that. His other guys carried him out of there, and he seemed alive, but not exactly conscious. And Elspeth von Draken became Matriarch soon afterwards.
I really don't think we have to be worried about the Supreme Patriarch dying because he was enchanting a spell he uses fairly often.
It's physically impossible to have a useful dragon and not also risk that dragon being targeted by a spellcaster that can dispel the "stop dragon" spell. I was, earlier, saying that that would always be a possibility, casting it without any enemies around wouldn't change that.
I just don't think it's likely.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Hey, the Amethyst (not Amber) Patriarch got killed doing an off-books unsanctioned personal mission, risking compromise of the overall military objective and breaking the chain of command by diverting an Elector Counts provincial soldiers away from an active battlefront.
Mathilde coulda court-martialed him if he'd survived.
(Only three-quarters joking.)
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- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
I was genuinely trying to make a helpful suggestion. Not undermine your idea.
The is a difference between a physical dragon, and a physical dragon with access to Speed of Light. So no. Not "full and detailed equipment and deployment plan for them": but "vague and high level/abstract idea that we should maybe also do something about the (reasonably assumed) probability that this dragon has access to a crazy op spell."
Bluntly, I have not treated your idea as a joke, I was trying to contribute, and I've just spent the last twenty minutes in SV's BLM protest thread, so I'm about ready to break a fuckers' jaw, so please kindly take the time to look at who is saying what and not lump someone who is asking you to consider a useful idea they saw earlier that might make your idea work significantly better; with people who took something you came up with that might be a good solution and called it a joke.
If you do not think that some in-quest expression of an "abstract ward save from the table top game" is useful, I invite you to check out the Hysh 'Speed of Light' spell if you are not aware of it.
----
To be less antagonistic, culture clashes are a big thing here, Belegar still does not grock how wizards do things, BoneyM compare it earlier to Runesmith that would know exactly what tools they intend to use for the task of "fight dragon" unlike us who had to think on it and consider and compare the possibilities.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Oh, okay. I tried to correct you by saying the exact thing you were saying. Sorry about that.
Hey. Uh. I'm not sure, but I think that they were just making a joke about not hashing out all the specifics. I interpret it this way because they emphasized the 'laaaaaame' at the end. I don't think that they were saying that your suggestion was bad; I like the idea of a Ward save, at least.
- Location
- Aotearoa
If anything, it seems our rep got a boost from Jovi Sundiers conflagration of boom
Akasha
The Only Truth
- Location
- 「̛̛́́ ͏̨҉̕͏ ͏̶̴」
If anything, it seems our rep got a boost from Jovi Sundiers conflagration of boom
Hah. Jovi Sundier. Because he rolled the die and died. I'm impressed.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Not my read of their post, and having reviewed it; still not my read. Their post makes no hint of "this is too specific," it is a sarcastic expression of why the idea I saw someone else come up with and thought was worthwhile promoting; was dumb, and it ignores that Belegar still does not grock what is to be expected of a wizard, to paraphrase BoneyM from some pages back. And no, I have no intention of doing the work of citing the post that lead me to this perceptive.
"Get runic item for dragon to have [Dwarven expression of the concept of 'Ward Save']" is not specific.
Specific would be going into what runes might work well, or what shape it might be, or even how 'Ward Save' is expressed in this instance.
Make mention to the person who does not understand wizard magic, but is paying for this that 'we might be well served by a runic item to help keep this new dragon-person alive in the face of a dragon that can cast Speed of Light' is very very much the job of the person who understands wizard magic.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Sorry. I was trying to be funny. Not snippish.
I also wasn't implying that you were treating my idea as a joke.
I genuinely thought that your suggestion was unnecessarily added baggage at this point in the voting process and my tired mind thought a funny parody conversation between Belegar and Mathy would be a light-hearted way of presenting the problem I saw.
Edit: For a more clear and straight-forward depiction of what I think of your suggestion, look at my reply to the quote right above yours in the same comment. I.e. a cool thing to add if Belegar likes and wants to use the altar, but not something that needs to be dealt with right now.
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- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Ah. Well. I am not my usual silly self at this moment.
For the parts of my post that was based on unwarranted aggression, I apologise.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ok, so, thought.
One of the benefits that had been called out for the dragon plan is that it ties the undumgi and the dwarfs closer together long term. One of the drawbacks is that volunteers must be found for the spell, willing to risk never turning back. So picture this:
A round table, with thirteen seats. (Warhammer has 12 months, right?) In twelve of them, knights sit- armored in treated hide and sculpted bronze, the fangs and crests and claws of dragons picked out with polish. In the thirteenth seat, the Master of the Order, Key holder, Caller of Dragons. Should greivous danger threaten the Karak, the knight of the current month is called to place their body upon the altar, and the key holder activates it.
Each knight is proven and promoted from the undumgi, volunteers for a sacred trust- to stand against that o'r which no other strength might prevail. Twelve is sufficient to form a unit, allow continuity and camraderie, and absorb casualties. It is also big enough to keep any one knight from becoming indisposable.
Initiation into the knighthood would be via transformation: becoming a dragon for the first time. If power permits, each knight should become a dragon once a year, in their month, for as long as they remain with the order.
The dwarves would be responsible for appointing the master of the order and their backup- ideally the dwarf liaison between the king and the viceroy. The knights themselves would be styled as the viceroy's personal guard.
It could be *really cool*!
I like this as a long-term plan.
One of the benefits that had been called out for the dragon plan is that it ties the undumgi and the dwarfs closer together long term. One of the drawbacks is that volunteers must be found for the spell, willing to risk never turning back. So picture this:
A round table, with thirteen seats. (Warhammer has 12 months, right?) In twelve of them, knights sit- armored in treated hide and sculpted bronze, the fangs and crests and claws of dragons picked out with polish. In the thirteenth seat, the Master of the Order, Key holder, Caller of Dragons. Should greivous danger threaten the Karak, the knight of the current month is called to place their body upon the altar, and the key holder activates it.
Each knight is proven and promoted from the undumgi, volunteers for a sacred trust- to stand against that o'r which no other strength might prevail. Twelve is sufficient to form a unit, allow continuity and camraderie, and absorb casualties. It is also big enough to keep any one knight from becoming indisposable.
Initiation into the knighthood would be via transformation: becoming a dragon for the first time. If power permits, each knight should become a dragon once a year, in their month, for as long as they remain with the order.
The dwarves would be responsible for appointing the master of the order and their backup- ideally the dwarf liaison between the king and the viceroy. The knights themselves would be styled as the viceroy's personal guard.
It could be *really cool*!
I like this as a long-term plan.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
That... is pretty epic, actually. I would almost suggest using the dragon skull seat as the thirteenth, if it weren't already Mathilde's. It's almost a shame Mathilde couldn't participate as a whole, given her knightly status and whatnot.
...Hold on. Couldn't our Great Deed be used to establish a Knightly Order, like, properly and all that? Because getting this officially recognized would probably let them do some pretty neat things even outside the traditional duty of protecting the Karak. Just, you know, as a suggestion.
I feel like there is a bit of cart before the horse here in that the dragon transformation idea came before the steps to get there. Can someone explain what an altar based on the Transformation of Kadon *is?*
Somehow I doubt where going to get a dragon-bake-oven this easily, or this suddenly.
(for personal reference i'm including the listed steps as they are so far)
-- Commission an altar based on (boosted) Transformation of Kadon.
-- Able to transform non-wizards.
-- Optimized to reduce destructive consequences in case of miscast.
-- Can only be activated by a Dwarf not currently being transformed.
-- Can only be activated with one of three keystones.
-- Transportable but heavy and unwieldy enough that even the resulting dragon can not just carry it away.
-- COIN: The Gambler
Somehow I doubt where going to get a dragon-bake-oven this easily, or this suddenly.
(for personal reference i'm including the listed steps as they are so far)
-- Commission an altar based on (boosted) Transformation of Kadon.
-- Able to transform non-wizards.
-- Optimized to reduce destructive consequences in case of miscast.
-- Can only be activated by a Dwarf not currently being transformed.
-- Can only be activated with one of three keystones.
-- Transportable but heavy and unwieldy enough that even the resulting dragon can not just carry it away.
-- COIN: The Gambler
[X] Plan: Fight Dragon with Dragon
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
I can't really clarify myself, barely understanding what Battle Altars are in the first place except a smaller, portable version of Towers essentially, but I do believe Boney directly stated that it was an entirely viable plan, and even gave tacit support when the memery accusations were happening. Support as in stating it was reasonable and well-thought out, not actually supporting said plan of course.
This has been explained before, but never mind that. Just know that BoneyM has corroborated this much: The Transformation of Kadon is Ghur Battlemagic. Altars that cast Battlemagic can and are made, if not often used, and usually they make ones that cast other kinds of Battlemagic, like Hysh or Azyr. They are kept as emergency response since they make people more than a bit nervous and are fairly expensive besides.
But Belegar is a Dwarf King who lives fairly far away from the Empire, so if he really wants to buy one we're pretty sure he can.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Okay. There are items that can be used to cast battle magic. They don't have to be big, we've got one embedded in our hand. One of the coolest battle magic spells turns people into a dragon. We want to, fundamentally, just make a magic item that casts that spell on people. It is, essentially, a dragon-bake-oven, yes. All the rest is just specifics.
We want the stronger version of the spell, so we specify that it is boosted. We want security on it, so we add activation conditions. We want reliability, so we make mention of maybe trying to make sure that it doesn't explode if it jams or anything. At the end of the day, it's still just a dragon-bake-oven.
No-one said anything about easily, though. Simple doesn't mean easy.
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- Location
- Earth
I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when you said that was something like this:
"Hey Qrech! I'm setting up a new Order of Thirteen. Are you in? Only catch, you might turn into a dragon-thing."
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am extremely down to establish an order of dragon knights. They automatically become some of the biggest badasses in the Old World.
But I'm not sure they should be Imperial knights. Knights aren't really a Dwarven thing, but I think it'd be better if such a knightly Order was sworn to the Karaz Ankor then the Empire. The altar belongs to a Dwarven King after all.
Ranald could totally still be their patron though, in the guise of the Protector.
But I'm not sure they should be Imperial knights. Knights aren't really a Dwarven thing, but I think it'd be better if such a knightly Order was sworn to the Karaz Ankor then the Empire. The altar belongs to a Dwarven King after all.
Ranald could totally still be their patron though, in the guise of the Protector.
Dwarves are not fond of metaphors. While they will occasionally use mining metaphors, a metaphor this extended seems uncharacteristic. I would suggest keeping it shorter, the whole second half at least could be compressed into "It may be human made, but it's all we have." "Shoddy" and "human made" being the same word in Khazalid, in conveys the message neatly.
...do the Skaven have dragons?
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Turns out I did at least skim all of the pages I said I wouldn't. What is wrong with me?
Transformation of Kadon is a Ghur battle-magic spell that transforms the caster into a Dragon.
So what my plan is proposing is the commission of a category 2 transform into dragon magic item. Direct spell-to-artifact type magic items can usually already be used by lay people. So in essence what I am asking is a canon option with an already existing price list in CF. The only complications I am adding is that a) it's literally the highest version Ghur spell and I am hoping for a boosted version on top of that, b) It has never actually been done before as far as we know even if it should be doable on principle, c) I am requesting making it "safe" despite all that. The rest is just straight forward security mechanisms to make Dwarves less fearful that some crazy Umgi will fill their home with dragons without permission.
- This altar is intended to only be used on Dwarves in the direst of situations. If a loyal Human is available use a loyal Human.
- The spell, in canon, creates something that can stand up to Dragons that were born Dragons. And WoG confirms.
- The top plan before this one rose, still in second place now, proposes using Urannon's Thunderbolt. Which is also Battle-Magic. If whoever crafts it puts restrictions on the item that prevent it from being used beyond K8P then I applaud their wisdom.
- You got me there. But at least I put three different anti-theft mechanisms into the plan and the actual creator might put in more.
Wasn't the Amber College the first to adapt it, thus being used by BoneyM as an in-story example that even Amber Wizards are still Wizards, with all the scholarliness that implies?
You mean an altar that one can target at a Dragon and suddenly have a Human falling out of the sky? That's ingenious!
To simplify, there are three size categories for artifacts that cast spells. Portable trinket, wagon-sized "altar", and full on magic tower.
Transformation of Kadon is a Ghur battle-magic spell that transforms the caster into a Dragon.
So what my plan is proposing is the commission of a category 2 transform into dragon magic item. Direct spell-to-artifact type magic items can usually already be used by lay people. So in essence what I am asking is a canon option with an already existing price list in CF. The only complications I am adding is that a) it's literally the highest version Ghur spell and I am hoping for a boosted version on top of that, b) It has never actually been done before as far as we know even if it should be doable on principle, c) I am requesting making it "safe" despite all that. The rest is just straight forward security mechanisms to make Dwarves less fearful that some crazy Umgi will fill their home with dragons without permission.
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