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"Ward Save" isn't a thing:
Aye, but like. Runic thingy that if this were a tabletop game, we would abstract with the words "ward save"

(I'd need someone better informed than myself to come up with an actualisation of the thing I was speaking about abstractly for me, as I am ignorant and feeling a bit lazy lately)
 
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Alternatively, and this is kind of mean to say, we could seek out those who wouldn't mind a permanent transformation. If we can make sure it's safe at least.

Like, if you're dying from a terminal illness and can't get help form magic or the divine, for whatever reason, would the transformation prevent that? If I had brain cancer or something, and had the option to become a dragon, then sure, I could take that deal and fight the enemies of man.
I get what you are saying, but I'd rather not try and game a favorable ruling into breaking the setting lest we lose it.

Much like how we don't go around healing people with the Seed, don't go about turning people into dragons with the altar.

The Seed used to be able to regrow limbs, now it can't do it anymore be use people wanted to clone limbs wholesale or something. I'm still salty.
 
Hm.

Knives are weapons.

Think we could (with some dedicated R&D) hook up some Weapon Runes to a Shadow Knives tower in a way that allowed the rune effects to apply to the knives? Because there are some neato weapon runes out there, and being able to apply them to an entire bullet hell would be pretty spicy.
...Kragg's master rune? Rune of Superior Skill? Cause both of those would be pretty damn devastating with a Shadow Knives tower. Bullet hell with tiny cannonballs that go through armor and nullify magic defenses sounds pretty damn devastating to me.
Isn't there any kind of tracking projectile or accuracy-enhancing rune for thrown or ranged weapons?


New crazy idea
Supposedly the one time the Liber Mortis was used it was the Grand Theogonist dispelling an army of Vampire-raised undead. I've gathered from my memory of past discussions that counterspelling Dhar the way it recommends would require directly or indirectly wielding Dhar, so the Grand Theogonist must have either had some magical capacity or begged Sigmar to do it for him. But Runesmiths interact with the Winds in a completely different way than humans.
@BoneyM
Could a Runesmith, such as Kragg, make use of the counterspelling insights present in the Liber Mortis without going insane?
I'm hopeful that this could be one way to bypass how our oaths make us unable to make the counterspelling useful to someone.
 
Isn't there any kind of tracking projectile or accuracy-enhancing rune for thrown or ranged weapons?


New crazy idea
Supposedly the one time the Liber Mortis was used it was the Grand Theogonist dispelling an army of Vampire-raised undead. I've gathered from my memory of past discussions that counterspelling Dhar the way it recommends would require directly or indirectly wielding Dhar, so the Grand Theogonist must have either had some magical capacity or begged Sigmar to do it for him. But Runesmiths interact with the Winds in a completely different way than humans.
@BoneyM
Could a Runesmith, such as Kragg, make use of the counterspelling insights present in the Liber Mortis without going insane?
I'm hopeful that this could be one way to bypass how our oaths make us unable to make the counterspelling useful to someone.
... So you want to tell Kragg the Grim that we've been sitting on the book of necromancy lore for years? Just to see if he can poke Dhar without actually using Dhar? Uh...
 
I'm hopeful that this could be one way to bypass how our oaths make us unable to make the counterspelling useful to someone.
We can counterspell Necromancers for days, we've got a +20 to that, no Dhar involved, just good, wholesome Ulgu.

The Second Secret of Dhar involves using Dhar you control to set off a systemic collapse in Dhar constructs. It's not the same as counterspelling or dispelling. (Not for the least because igniting Dhar like that also corrupts the soil pretty badly, in addition to the soul)
 
We can counterspell Necromancers for days, we've got a +20 to that, no Dhar involved, just good, wholesome Ulgu.

The Second Secret of Dhar involves using Dhar you control to set off a systemic collapse in Dhar constructs. It's not the same as counterspelling or dispelling. (Not for the least because igniting Dhar like that also corrupts the soil pretty badly, in addition to the soul)


What use is a soul really?

Doesn't do anything but make you demon bait.
 
First of all, I have not read through the last 17 pages of comments, nor am I planning to. But I did read every comment I was tagged in, every comment by BoneyM and some random comments surrounding those.
That said, Fight Dragon With Dragon is not (and was never supposed to be) a joke plan. Someone in thread said that no single attack spell or artillery can just "deal with" an Emperor Dragon. Someone else suggested that the boosted version of Transformation of Kadon results in a Dragon of at least physically comparable skill to an Emperor Dragon. There was a tiny bit of back and forth discussion, I said I'd vote for it and when no one else came up with an actual plan right away, I decided to do it myself while waiting on someone IRL. Because I genuinely liked it more than the top two plans.
Is it perfect? No. Is it better than trying to shoot lightning from a single tower when we met our target as it slaughtered its way through underground armies? Opinions vary. Is it adequate enough when keeping in mind how the request by King Belegar was worded? I dare anyone argue that it isn't.

...that's a biiiiiig oof. I don't think I can support this plan anymore, as awesome as it is. Exposing our volunteers to the risks of being completely trapped seems extremely bad.
Why would you use the item that transforms someone into an awesome mobile flier in front of your enemies? The item is supposed to be used ideally from behind the gates of Karag Lhune.

So hey @Rafin I'm getting the impression from other people that the point of transforming someone into a dragon is so that they can delay the dragon enough that it can be killed with artillery or something, because we'd expect the transformed person to lose a straight fight.

So I'd suggest adding something to the plan about consulting with the Karak's military authorities about how we should best position existing dragon-killing weapons like artillery or rune weapons in order to ensure there's the fastest possible response time for the other things meant to help kill the dragon, so the transformed person doesn't have to hold them off for as long.

and add running a survey to ensure we have people who are willing to be transformed before we go and order the thing. It'd be frustrating to buy it, then have no one to use it.
Transform two persons? More? It kind of depends on what cooldown the altar ends up with, which in turn probably depends on the in turn rolls.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a throwaway project to fill out the 6 months. If King Belegar is both intrigued by it and can't be bothered to delegate the volunteer finding or strategic implication analyzing to someone else (like the Military advisor whose job this should be) then I'm happy to vote for Mathilde to continue refining the "how to best use this" part.

@Rafin you are the first person on the tally, so I'm guessing you came up with the vote, what do you think of adding this to it:
"- With the intention/suggestion of ordering a dragon sized talisman that gives a ward save so that the person becoming a dragon has a chance to survive Speed of Light"

Belegar: "Hey Mathilde, if you can find some leftover time could you maybe quickly throw something together that we could use to defeat this Emperor Dragon? You know, just in case."

Mathilde: "I couldn't think of something that is straight up better than a Dragon, so took your budget and bought us a thingie that can make loyal people into Dragons. Dragons should stand some chance against Dragons, no?"

Belegar: "You gave me access to loyal Dragons, but didn't come up with a full and detailed equipment and deployment plan for them? Laaaaame!"
It's possible, but Mathilde doesn't know how she could personally tip the odds.
Ask Algard to do it for her? Maybe that's worth some personal favor. I didn't think of it after you said that investing CF would make no difference. As for when would we meet Algard, afaik we are hand-delivering a pretty interesting book to him since we are visiting the College anyway to learn some staff.
 
Isn't there any kind of tracking projectile or accuracy-enhancing rune for thrown or ranged weapons?
There are, we see them be used in the artillery plans. Also there are accuracy boosting spells to be used on the user.
--[] Suggested artillery runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
--[] Suggested buffs: Trial and Error, Second Portent of Amul (not necessarily at the same time)
--[] Specialist bolts: (Master) Rune of Dragonslaying/Demonslaying, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking

Of the three plans we have dwarf artillery was basically the standard dwarf anti-dragon tactic. Get some bolt throwers and cannons and boost them (and their ammo) up with runes so they can smash a dragon out of the air (or kill them on or under the ground). Mathilde added in some magic buffs too from her wizard side.

However we decided to go for the crazy umgi plan instead where the most obvious way to match an enemy dragon is to send a friendly dragon.
 
Why would you use the item that transforms someone into an awesome mobile flier in front of your enemies? The item is supposed to be used ideally from behind the gates of Karag Lhune.
Dispelling at least can be done at any point to an active spell. I don't think it's especially likely for any enemy to try to dispel it, but they probably could.
 
Dispelling at least can be done at any point to an active spell. I don't think it's especially likely for any enemy to try to dispel it, but they probably could.

But how? If the dragon is outside or in another mountain entirely, with all that stone in the way, how could he tell.

And surely K8P is larger then 5 square miles in every direction, or whatever the range of detection.

And on top of all that, aren't there magic blocking/rune warded vaults we could perform the spell in, so the dragon couldn't sense it? Or surely the Runesmiths could put together a vault that could do that at least.

Edit: or if you meant mid-fight, yeah, a permanent, enraged dragon does not improve your odds.
 
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But how? If the dragon is outside or in another mountain entirely, with all that stone in the way, how could he tell.

And surely K8P is larger then 5 square miles in every direction, or whatever the range of detection.

And on top of all that, aren't there magic blocking/rune warded vaults we could perform the spell in, so the dragon couldn't sense it? Or surely the Runesmiths could put together a vault that could do that at least.
I think you missed the "active" part of that. The spell is on our dragon champion, so if the enemy gets close to said champion--which is the entire point--he can try to dispel it. Of course, as has been pointed out a couple of times, doing so would literally just be sabotaging itself with absolutely no gains, so...
 
Does anyone have an idea how the tower would boost Uramons Thunderbolt if any boost at all because the spell burning shadows got a range boost and defenetly a damage boost from the rune of gazul.
 
Honestly, we shouldn't drag Dragomas into this. If we do and he botches the enchanting, we'll be down a very impressive Supreme Patriarch who seems to be our own Patriarch's friend. We wouldn't want to get blamed for that, would we now? Better let some rando Lord Magister mook do the job. If he blows up, our PR shouldn't suffer anymore than it did the last time a Lord Magister exploded in our temporary employ.
 
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Dispelling at least can be done at any point to an active spell. I don't think it's especially likely for any enemy to try to dispel it, but they probably could.
Magesight doesn't go through walls. They could dispel the turn-back-into-a-not-dragon spell when the dragon comes into view, but if we transform them inside then they can't do a thing about the turn-into-a-dragon spell, which is an instantaneous effect.
 
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There are, we see them be used in the artillery plans. Also there are accuracy boosting spells to be used on the user.
--[] Suggested artillery runes: Rune of Accuracy/Flakksson's Rune of Seeking for precision, Rune of Penetrating for damage
--[] Suggested buffs: Trial and Error, Second Portent of Amul (not necessarily at the same time)
--[] Specialist bolts: (Master) Rune of Dragonslaying/Demonslaying, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking

Of the three plans we have dwarf artillery was basically the standard dwarf anti-dragon tactic. Get some bolt throwers and cannons and boost them (and their ammo) up with runes so they can smash a dragon out of the air (or kill them on or under the ground). Mathilde added in some magic buffs too from her wizard side.

However we decided to go for the crazy umgi plan instead where the most obvious way to match an enemy dragon is to send a friendly dragon.
I was talking about adding them to the shadow-knives based bullet hell defence on the wizard's tower, just as part of the ongoing upgrades to tower defence. Other discussion seemed to be focusing on how to make the knives more damaging, when that's not usually what you need in AA defence.
I actually really like the dragon plan.
First of all, I have not read through the last 17 pages of comments, nor am I planning to. But I did read every comment I was tagged in, every comment by BoneyM and some random comments surrounding those.
That said, Fight Dragon With Dragon is not (and was never supposed to be) a joke plan. Someone in thread said that no single attack spell or artillery can just "deal with" an Emperor Dragon. Someone else suggested that the boosted version of Transformation of Kadon results in a Dragon of at least physically comparable skill to an Emperor Dragon. There was a tiny bit of back and forth discussion, I said I'd vote for it and when no one else came up with an actual plan right away, I decided to do it myself while waiting on someone IRL. Because I genuinely liked it more than the top two plans.
Is it perfect? No. Is it better than trying to shoot lightning from a single tower when we met our target as it slaughtered its way through underground armies? Opinions vary. Is it adequate enough when keeping in mind how the request by King Belegar was worded? I dare anyone argue that it isn't.


Why would you use the item that transforms someone into an awesome mobile flier in front of your enemies? The item is supposed to be used ideally from behind the gates of Karag Lhune.


Transform two persons? More? It kind of depends on what cooldown the altar ends up with, which in turn probably depends on the in turn rolls.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a throwaway project to fill out the 6 months. If King Belegar is both intrigued by it and can't be bothered to delegate the volunteer finding or strategic implication analyzing to someone else (like the Military advisor whose job this should be) then I'm happy to vote for Mathilde to continue refining the "how to best use this" part.



Belegar: "Hey Mathilde, if you can find some leftover time could you maybe quickly throw something together that we could use to defeat this Emperor Dragon? You know, just in case."

Mathilde: "I couldn't think of something that is straight up better than a Dragon, so took your budget and bought us a thingie that can make loyal people into Dragons. Dragons should stand some chance against Dragons, no?"

Belegar: "You gave me access to loyal Dragons, but didn't come up with a full and detailed equipment and deployment plan for them? Laaaaame!"

Ask Algard to do it for her? Maybe that's worth some personal favor. I didn't think of it after you said that investing CF would make no difference. As for when would we meet Algard, afaik we are hand-delivering a pretty interesting book to him since we are visiting the College anyway to learn some staff.
Yeah that works, and you've got a point about our time limitations.
 
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Edit: or if you meant mid-fight, yeah, a permanent, enraged dragon does not improve your odds.
Well, yeah, that's what I was saying. Any point where the spell is active is a point where someone could dispel the "stop being a dragon" spell. And we obviously would need our dragon to get in range, given a dragon outside of clawing/firebreath distance isn't much use.

Still, as I said earlier, it doesn't seem like the most likely event. I feel like most spellcasters would respond to a dragon with, well, damaging spells, and the ones observant enough to realize that it's ToK would also be aware that a dispel does not help them here.

If he blows up, our PR shouldn't suffer anymore than it did the last time a Lord Magister exploded in our temporary employ.
I think Sunscryer was a Magister?

They could dispel the turn-back-into-a-not-dragon spell when the dragon comes into view
Yeah, that's what the conversation was about. That's certainly the only thing I was talking about.
 
Well, yeah, that's what I was saying. Any point where the spell is active is a point where someone could dispel the "stop being a dragon" spell. And we obviously would need our dragon to get in range, given a dragon outside of clawing/firebreath distance isn't much use.

Still, as I said earlier, it doesn't seem like the most likely event. I feel like most spellcasters would respond to a dragon with, well, damaging spells, and the ones observant enough to realize that it's ToK would also be aware that a dispel does not help them here.


I think Sunscryer was a Magister?


Yeah, that's what the conversation was about. That's certainly the only thing I was talking about.

Yeah, Sunseer. That guy. Honestly, I don't remember what he was. I know we had a Lord Magister, and I'm pretty sure something made them utterly useless, but I'm not sure if it was Sunflier or that other guy, whatshisname.
 
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I think Sunscryer was a Magister?

The Amethyst patriarch also got himself killed on our watch, and no one blamed us for that either. Damn, that campaign was not a good showing for the colleges. Very embarrassing, if not for Mathilde seeing it through.

However, a military campaign and artisanal commission are entirely different. People die in war, if the supreme patriarch gets killed doing us a personal job, that's way worse.

Edit: corrected
 
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