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I see. Could you perhaps give me some examples of that being the case in the past?

Well for one thing the example of large expenditures allowing you to get dwarven grand masters and equivalents to rune lords in their professions to look at issue.

Another is the way a 25 point expenditure with Kragg allowed us to get a runic item of supurlative performance where as spending 25 points but over multiple items wouldn't give you nearly as good a result.

Some projects are just outright significantly better when done all at once.
 
I see. Could you perhaps give me some examples of that being the case in the past?
Gear, for one. Fifteen dwarf favor gets you a runelord. 5 will be 'just' a runesmith, and you can't upgrade gear afterwards. That's a big part of why we went all out on the ultra sword. Something similar goes for hiring people. Some work can only be done by the best (both runesmithing or engineering is potentially relevant for us), but you can't hire the best piecemeal. That just gets you several not the best, which is good for quantity, but not quality.

There's also the aspect that we don't have a super reliable way to get dwarf favor. College favor is fairly easy, we have a huge backlog of paper topics, and expect to pick up more as we go. We'll probably also get more dwarf favor, but that's a lot more unpredictable, and much more risky to 'force'.
 
Thing is, we currently have 49 dwarf favor and already possess two runic items of great power.

Reminder, we have only get two (or maybe three) item slots remaining, and even then, the jade artefact is already occupying one and we are unable to wear metal armour (and runic clothwork is lost to dwarfs).

While we can't predict when and how will we get additional dwarf favor, implying that we won't get more is fear-mongering.

I agree that we shouldn't spend the favor willy-nilly, and keep some in reserve, but there's being sensible and there's hoarding.
 
Generally theres no safe reliable way to earn dwarf favor. Its valuable enough to be hard to use as a result.
I'm sure there are safe and reliable ways to get dwarf favor, they're just not open for us. A bard could compose songs celebrating/bemoaning great events, a ruler could sent his troops to their aid, a runesmith could make runed items, a very skilled engineer could probably get somewhere too, especially with Gotri. But our skills are magic and murder, one of which is not reliable, and the other is not safe.

Our scholarly work could get us favor in principle, but not while we're getting payed for it, unless it's something quite exceptional (and therefore not reliably available).
Thing is, we currently have 49 dwarf favor and already possess two runic items of great power.

Reminder, we have only get two (or maybe three) item slots remaining, and even then, the jade artefact is already occupying one and we are unable to wear metal armour (and runic clothwork is lost to dwarfs).

While we can't predict when and how will we get additional dwarf favor, implying that we won't get more is fear-mongering.

I agree that we shouldn't spend the favor willy-nilly, and keep some in reserve, but there's being sensible and there's hoarding.
We're not hoarding. We spent 8 favor just recently on the repeater. If you have a cool idea, there's a good chance that you can convince enough people to make it happen.

But while it's true that not having a reliable income doesn't mean we can't ever spend any, having a lot of it currently doesn't mean we should burn through it.
 
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Thing is, we currently have 49 dwarf favor and already possess two runic items of great power.

Reminder, we have only get two (or maybe three) item slots remaining, and even then, the jade artefact is already occupying one and we are unable to wear metal armour (and runic clothwork is lost to dwarfs).

While we can't predict when and how will we get additional dwarf favor, implying that we won't get more is fear-mongering.

I agree that we shouldn't spend the favor willy-nilly, and keep some in reserve, but there's being sensible and there's hoarding.
I think one of the main reasons it's not being spent is we just don't have anything we urgently (or even non-urgently) need to spend it on. Gear? We're very well equipped there. Research? We've got one ongoing project that'll benefit from it, and we've been finishing up other parts of it first. Miscellaneous stuff? We have been spending it on that (e.g. the repeater), there's just nothing obvious to throw it at right now.

Hoarding dwarf favour for the sake of hoarding it is pointless, it's true, but spending it just for the sake of spending it is even more pointless.
 
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Right up until the Grey College sends us off to wipe the ass of some dribbling incompetent of andImperial noble.
I find this sentiment up there with the constant worrying over the Bursar showing up in our closet, really. Maybe, if we were some untested Journeywoman who didn't write home every year, they'd want to keep us closer to their chest, and that might mean assigning us to another job when we finish our last so that they know what we're up to. However, we're a crazy dwarf-friend Mountain Magister who's written a treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind while also participating in the retaking of dwarven holds (an up until now unachieved endeavor), and some of our more notable accomplishments include seeing a fortress where every inhabitant is a battle mage and their teacher is an ancient Necrarch vampire and deciding we're just going to get rid of them (and succeeding) and using a superweapon, one we designed, to attain a higher personal killcount of greenskins than Sigmar. And then we went and gave a lecture on how to counterspell greenskins that even the elves attended using insight stolen from the orcish deities (not that we told anybody that), because when I mentioned writing that treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind I meant Vampires and Dragon-Ogres.

I think we're probably the coolest grey magister as of this moment, at least until another one gets invented to demonstrate that we've still got a ways to go even in the niche of being a ridiculous fantasy hero wizard, but we don't need to be for them to decide, quite reasonably, that maybe we can be trusted to pick our own jobs. Frankly, at this point, we're getting to the level where we start making positions for other people.
 
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I think one of the main reasons it's not being spent is we just don't have anything we urgently (or even non-urgently) need to spend it on. Gear? We're very well equipped there. Research? We've got one ongoing project that'll benefit from it, and we've been finishing up other parts of it first. Miscellaneous stuff? We have been spending it on that (e.g. the repeater), there's just nothing obvious to throw it at right now.

Hoarding dwarf favour for the sake of hoarding it is pointless, it's true, but spending it just for the sake of spending it is even more pointless.

There are a lot of stuff that it can be spent on a la the repeater stuff or other infrastructural matters or even as gifts to friends, but the thread has proven be very averse to it in the past, citing mostly an (unreasonable) fear of this becoming a ckII quest or being overly paranoid of dwarf favor running out.
 
Right up until the Grey College sends us off to wipe the ass of some dribbling incompetent of andImperial noble. K8P is ideal for working on projects because we have a good working relationship with the local lord and enough distance from the Empire that we are not expected to put out fires there.



I find this sentiment up there with the constant worrying over the Bursar showing up in our closet, really. Maybe, if we were some untested Journeywoman who didn't write home every year, they'd want to keep us closer to their chest, and that might mean assigning us to another job when we finish our last so that they know what we're up to. However, we're a crazy dwarf-friend Mountain Magister who's written a treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind while also participating in the retaking of dwarven holds (an up until now unachieved endeavor), and some of our more notable accomplishments include seeing a fortress where every inhabitant is a battle mage and their teacher is an ancient Necrarch vampire and deciding we're just going to get rid of them (and succeeding) and using a superweapon, one we designed, to attain a higher personal killcount of greenskins than Sigmar. And then we went and gave a lecture on how to counterspell greenskins that even the elves attended using insight stolen from the orcish deities (not that we told anybody that), because when I mentioned writing that treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind I meant Vampires and Dragon-Ogres.

I think we're probably the coolest grey magister as of this moment, at least until another one gets invented to demonstrate that we've still got a ways to go even in the niche of being a ridiculous fantasy hero wizard, but we don't need to be for them to decide, quite reasonably, that maybe we can be trusted to pick our own jobs. Frankly, at this point, we're getting to the level where we start making positions for other people.

Yeah, like...

If the Grey Order tried to pull that, it be one Ares of a slap to the face, and an very good way to cost Mathilde her loyalty to them, and one good way to create an massive grudge towards them from Karak Eight Peaks.
 
If there's anything I want to spend Dwarf Favor on, it would be upgrading our Marksdwarf pistol with runes. We won't get anything super-dramatic out of it, but it can make our longest-range option much more powerful, which can be helpful in all kinds of situations.
 
I find this sentiment up there with the constant worrying over the Bursar showing up in our closet, really. Maybe, if we were some untested Journeywoman who didn't write home every year, they'd want to keep us closer to their chest, and that might mean assigning us to another job when we finish our last so that they know what we're up to. However, we're a crazy dwarf-friend Mountain Magister who's written a treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind while also participating in the retaking of dwarven holds (an up until now unachieved endeavor), and some of our more notable accomplishments include seeing a fortress where every inhabitant is a battle mage and their teacher is an ancient Necrarch vampire and deciding we're just going to get rid of them (and succeeding) and using a superweapon, one we designed, to attain a higher personal killcount of greenskins than Sigmar. And then we went and gave a lecture on how to counterspell greenskins that even the elves attended using insight stolen from the orcish deities (not that we told anybody that), because when I mentioned writing that treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind I meant Vampires and Dragon-Ogres.

I think we're probably the coolest grey magister as of this moment, at least until another one gets invented to demonstrate that we've still got a ways to go even in the niche of being a ridiculous fantasy hero wizard, but we don't need to be for them to decide, quite reasonably, that maybe we can be trusted to pick our own jobs. Frankly, at this point, we're getting to the level where we start making positions for other people.
This, we are at the point that we make our own jobs, and I would like to start looking at what's happening in the border princes and Bretonnia as well as streland and Averland.

But as the loremaster we are always going to be in a race to fix up k8p, loremaster of the library or wizard of Karak Nar we'll be able to travel more.
 
So as is tradition, I'll be making my by-monthly argument for changing our job when our contract is up.

If we step down from Loremaster of K8P to court Wizard of Karak Nar or LoreMaster of the Grand Liberty we will have a lot more freedom to do our own things and go travel, and poke the empire and wood elf plotlines while still being around to help the dwarfs when needed.

It is the best job for research, imho. It has a big budget and it keeps the grey college off our backs. I want to lose neither of those things.

I find this sentiment up there with the constant worrying over the Bursar showing up in our closet, really. Maybe, if we were some untested Journeywoman who didn't write home every year, they'd want to keep us closer to their chest, and that might mean assigning us to another job when we finish our last so that they know what we're up to. However, we're a crazy dwarf-friend Mountain Magister who's written a treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind while also participating in the retaking of dwarven holds (an up until now unachieved endeavor), and some of our more notable accomplishments include seeing a fortress where every inhabitant is a battle mage and their teacher is an ancient Necrarch vampire and deciding we're just going to get rid of them (and succeeding) and using a superweapon, one we designed, to attain a higher personal killcount of greenskins than Sigmar. And then we went and gave a lecture on how to counterspell greenskins that even the elves attended using insight stolen from the orcish deities (not that we told anybody that), because when I mentioned writing that treatise on the magical capacities of two powerful foes of mankind I meant Vampires and Dragon-Ogres.

I think we're probably the coolest grey magister as of this moment, at least until another one gets invented to demonstrate that we've still got a ways to go even in the niche of being a ridiculous fantasy hero wizard, but we don't need to be for them to decide, quite reasonably, that maybe we can be trusted to pick our own jobs. Frankly, at this point, we're getting to the level where we start making positions for other people.

The Bursar auditing worry and the grey college attempting to assign us somewhere else worry are different worries and they find me on different sides of the aisle. I allready stated my thoughts about the Bursar worry: realpolitic makes attacking us unfeasible. But reassignement is a very different fruit imho in that it is entirely feasible and cost effective.

You see, the grey college has a LOT of open fronts, so if they spot a member being unproductive for the Empire, they slowly amp up the soft pressure until they start being productive. This is significantly safer than a kill order (nothing we can do if our favours start dissipating, or if we suddenly cannot purchase certain books, or if we lose battle magic privillege, or if we face several administrative obstructions). It is also significantly more likely to happen to the powerful, because they want their top agents to be productive, and they know that even the most competent grey mage wants to just stop doing things for the Empire and just research because that is what mages like to do.

They likely won't send us to wipe the ass of some incompetent noble, they'd pointedly pressure us to do something, and the more we do not, the more they will suggest certain things. As things stand, however, we benefit the Empire tremendously just by being a Loremaster on K8P, so they do not want to move us because they'll lose their dwarven relations generator. It'll be a different story, however, if we quit, because they need all hands on deck, and they will use soft means we cannot retaliate against without being the bad guy to do so.

This, we are at the point that we make our own jobs, and I would like to start looking at what's happening in the border princes and Bretonnia as well as streland and Averland.

But as the loremaster we are always going to be in a race to fix up k8p, loremaster of the library or wizard of Karak Nar we'll be able to travel more.

Addendum because I was ninja'd: Of course, if we decide to do something useful, they won't soft pressure us, but that will give us less time to research imho, not more.
 
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So I just noticed, we were doing approval voting for love interest, and a lot of us are approval voting now for books and the bounty, but are we supposed to?

Does this quest have constant approval voting, or did we just forget after waiting for the love interest vote that it was a one off?
 
It is the best job for research, imho. It has a big budget and it keeps the grey college off our backs. I want to lose neither of those things.

The Bursar auditing worry and the grey college attempting to assign us somewhere else worry are different worries and they find me on different sides of the aisle. I allready stated my thoughts about the Bursar worry: realpolitic makes attacking us unfeasible. But reassignement is a very different fruit imho in that it is entirely feasible and cost effective.

You see, the grey college has a LOT of open fronts, so if they spot a member being unproductive for the Empire, they slowly amp up the soft pressure until they start being productive. This is significantly safer than a kill order (nothing we can do if our favours start dissipating, or if we suddenly cannot purchase certain books, or if we lose battle magic privillege, or if we face several administrative obstructions). It is also significantly more likely to happen to the powerful, because they want their top agents to be productive, and they know that even the most competent grey mage wants to just stop doing things for the Empire and just research because that is what mages like to do.

They likely won't send us to wipe the ass of some incompetent noble, they'd pointedly pressure us to do something, and the more we do not, the more they will suggest certain things. As things stand, however, we benefit the Empire tremendously just by being a Loremaster on K8P, so they do not want to move us because they'll lose their dwarven relations generator. It'll be a different story, however, if we quit, because they need all hands on deck, and they will use soft means we cannot retaliate against without being the bad guy to do so.
No the Grey college would not prod us into doing anything even if we stepped down as loremaster unless we suddenly stopped doing or publishing anything for several concurrent years. This is because Mathilde has produced multiple groundbreaking papers on the nature of magic used by enemies of the empire of man, as well as numerous other significant research papers, and would continue to do so.

As far as the order is concerned a happy Magister working away on their research who is producing significant research papers is vastly more productive to the interests of the empire than an unhappy, pissed off, politically connected magister who is being forced into doing things they have no interest in.

Edit:The problem of the loremaster job for research is that we have not been able to advance a lot of our longer term projecets because there is pressure to do things that resolve within a couple of years at most and also the persistant thread feeling that we must put around 1/2 our actions into this, which combined with other firefighting leaves very little to advance our long term agenda.

Honestly I'd like it if we could get a couple of years where Belegar gives us free reign to pursue our own projects after the skaven job. We have a number of things that might be very, very good if we actually have some time to pursue them, and with the Karak reclaimed now is a good time while the Waystone issue is considered.
 
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If the Grey Order tried to pull that, it be one Ares of a slap to the face, and an very good way to cost Mathilde her loyalty to them, and one good way to create an massive grudge towards them from Karak Eight Peaks.
It wouldn't be a Grudge; a Dwarven Grudge isn't a negative sentiment, it's an oath that can be acceptably satisfied with murder.
It is also significantly more likely to happen to the powerful, because they want their top agents to be productive, and they know that even the most competent grey mage wants to just stop doing things for the Empire and just research because that is what mages like to do.
So we're back at this sentiment, but from a different angle. "-but we don't need to be for them to decide, quite reasonably, that maybe we can be trusted to pick our own jobs." 'Pick our own jobs' is synonymous with 'know how to be productive without their meddling'. We're Mathilde Weber. We're always productive. If we move away from one job position, it's because we want to go and be productive in a different manner. They don't have the time or energy to micromanage us in a way that they think could get better results, because the person who knows and is qualified to assign Mathilde Weber to new tasks best is Mathilde Weber.
If we have a job sure, but if we willingly demote ourselves in a way that makes us less useful to the Empire overall expect the Grey order to have an assignment.
Any course of action in which our college favor generation remains greater than zero is being productive. We are the Grey Order.
So I just noticed, we were doing approval voting for love interest, and a lot of us are approval voting now for books and the bounty, but are we supposed to?

Does this quest have constant approval voting, or did we just forget after waiting for the love interest vote that it was a one off?
Yeah, constant approval voting. It's just niftier.
 
I wouldn't mind asking Belegar for what I would call a "Basic Research" assignment, where we say "look, we've got a bunch of ideas in the R&D phase, give me some time to poke at them and see if they work and hopefully I can come back with a new superweapon."

I do not wish to leave our job any time soon, though. I value our position and our relationship with Belegar significantly more than I value freedom of action and a change in setting.
 
There are a lot of stuff that it can be spent on a la the repeater stuff or other infrastructural matters or even as gifts to friends, but the thread has proven be very averse to it in the past, citing mostly an (unreasonable) fear of this becoming a ckII quest or being overly paranoid of dwarf favor running out.
I think a big reason why people don't want to spend dwarf favor is that all the offered suggestions are meh. Just not interesting. I don't care about another salpeter factory. I don't particularly want to read about it, and I certainly don't want to spend a somewhat rare resource to read about it. Now, if there was a great shortage we could resolve, that would be interesting, and I'd be happy to invest. Or if you had a plan to spend X for a friggen zeppelin. Like, ultra sword went through as 25 rather than 15 when we had a whole lot less favor. People are willing to spend.

Saying "unreasonable fear of this becoming a ckII quest" isn't fair, I think. A lot of people don't want to have a management quest or a management character (or no more than it already is), and that's a perfectly valid preference. Also, this argument is self defeating. Either whatever we buy is inconsequential enough not to turn up in the quest, and therefore a waste of favor, or it's important enough to turn up in the quest, and therefore moves into a direction some people don't want.

So please, if you want favor spent, make some concrete, interesting suggestions. Then those can be discussed, and decided on their individual merit. Otherwise this debate is just going to go in circles.
 
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