Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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That's how you get Strigoi. The blood being human seems to be important.
I'm not sure there's any example where feeding didn't result in death.
Really, I think the biggest issue that this runs into is that, well, Vampires don't actually care about humans. They really don't. At best, they're pragmatic about it.
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- Location
- Spain
In Gotrek´s and Felix stories, you have a pretty good example of Vampires doing just that...
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
For now. I haven't read G&F, but I'm not sure Ulrika is a success-story.
And I didn't mean early on. But once you're getting on a few centuries old and lost all personal connections with humans, will you still treat humans the same way? Especially given you're regularly feeding on them.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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Who says that has to happen? Just because vampires vastly outlive mortal humans doesn't mean they can't continue to form connections with them. Just look at humans and dogs IRL. Just because your old dog dies of old age doesn't mean you stop caring about dogs and don't enjoy getting new ones and bonding with them. And on top of that, the people you're friends with probably have kids, and you can maintain bonds with them, too.
You don't just stop forming bonds with people once you become a vampire unless you actively decide to do so.
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There are. Since you mentioned Ulrika I'll use her series as an example, Ulrika fails to control her hunger only three times in the books, the first time she has starved herself in protest but her grandmother-in-darkness is able to talk her down and the peasent lives, the second time she is still starving herself but she is not helped this time and tears her victim into bloody giblets and then eats him, the final time I haven't read but resulted in Felix killing her in self defence. Every other time she feeds she either lets them live or delibartely murders them.
- Location
- Mexico
Do vampires need to feed directly on the person, or could people just "donate" blood by bleeding into a bowl or something? Make it a yearly donation and things would work out.
Also, not directly related, do necrarchs need to look like corpses or it's just because they refuse to feed? Asking for a friend.
Also, not directly related, do necrarchs need to look like corpses or it's just because they refuse to feed? Asking for a friend.
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They need to feed directly on a living being. This is because they are also feeding partially on their aytheric presence. This is one reason why feeding on animals causes them to become more beastial.
Necrarch look like they do because the don't have to feed by drinking blood at all. Instead they feed on background magic and this formulates Dhar in their bodies which deforms them. Though they can feed on blood for taste or to speed up their healing like other vampires.
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chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Yeah, vampires don't really drink blood, they drink souls. Blood is just the medium. That's why they turn into monsters and stuff when they eat animals.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly I think we're better off blowing up vampires than we are thinking about how to integrate them into a social order where they get to be the special ruling elite at the top that has free rein to investigate crimes (and eat the criminals) and do all the fighting (and organize and control defense and foreign policy).
Thematically, one of the big things vampires symbolize- have always symbolized- is aristocracy. An elite that has so much power they can just arbitrarily kill peasants for their sustenance straight-up, rather than just working them to death for taxes and doing it indirectly. Prominent depictions of vampires almost always tap into that. And I think it's with this in mind that we should explore the way that vampires mesmerize people not only in story, but outside of it. We find ourselves making excuses for, well... serial killers who eat their victims, or select parts of those victims.
The idea of their unique magical powers almost seems to authorize them preying on us, as if we really are objectively inferior beings and not just beings who don't happen to have been modified by this particular magic.
I try to push back against this, when I can. There is literally no reason we should ever, ever expect humans to have to tolerate being killed and eaten to serve the self-interest of a select minority of predators.
In the first case, the vampires will very soon not have anywhere near the number of criminals they had before and will be left hungry. They'll be obliged to expand their definition of criminality and place greater demands on the public. In the second case, the vampires aren't actually benefiting anyone. They're just perpetuating a rotten social order in a way that gives them an excuse to literally eat the permanent criminal underclass (shades of Calabim gameplay from the Fall From Heaven mod of Civilization IV, for anyone who's played that).
Taking the aristocratic upper class and turning them into obligate serial killers with superpowers isn't going to make society a better place.
Or, alternatively, a cultural shift. I mean, the history of empires and nations ruled by the undead in Warhammer doesn't fill me with encouragement about how likely they are to abstain indefinitely from corruption, decadence, and mad actions that torment the living to the benefit of the dead.
a
Thematically, one of the big things vampires symbolize- have always symbolized- is aristocracy. An elite that has so much power they can just arbitrarily kill peasants for their sustenance straight-up, rather than just working them to death for taxes and doing it indirectly. Prominent depictions of vampires almost always tap into that. And I think it's with this in mind that we should explore the way that vampires mesmerize people not only in story, but outside of it. We find ourselves making excuses for, well... serial killers who eat their victims, or select parts of those victims.
The idea of their unique magical powers almost seems to authorize them preying on us, as if we really are objectively inferior beings and not just beings who don't happen to have been modified by this particular magic.
I try to push back against this, when I can. There is literally no reason we should ever, ever expect humans to have to tolerate being killed and eaten to serve the self-interest of a select minority of predators.
The problem is, if it's that effective, the vampires end up cutting off their own food supply. Either the crime rate plummets because everyone is sure that committing a crime results in getting eaten by vampires, or crime remains rampant despite the punishment being "get eaten by vampires."
In the first case, the vampires will very soon not have anywhere near the number of criminals they had before and will be left hungry. They'll be obliged to expand their definition of criminality and place greater demands on the public. In the second case, the vampires aren't actually benefiting anyone. They're just perpetuating a rotten social order in a way that gives them an excuse to literally eat the permanent criminal underclass (shades of Calabim gameplay from the Fall From Heaven mod of Civilization IV, for anyone who's played that).
Taking the aristocratic upper class and turning them into obligate serial killers with superpowers isn't going to make society a better place.
All it takes is for them to WAAAGH!!! in the other direction for a year or two, so that a large vampire population accustomed to orkish prey has to look closer to home.
Or, alternatively, a cultural shift. I mean, the history of empires and nations ruled by the undead in Warhammer doesn't fill me with encouragement about how likely they are to abstain indefinitely from corruption, decadence, and mad actions that torment the living to the benefit of the dead.
The thing is, they're either at war, as individuals, or they're not. If they're not, then they're sitting around getting hungry at home near their own citizens. As long as they never run out of enemies, and never say "fuckit, it'd be so much easier to just eat at home in my well-stocked larder full of humans than to go pick up ork carryout," that may be fine. But it's a social order that's inherently one tipping point away from mass vampiric predation on the people they claim to be protecting.
a
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First, I agree with your point about vampires as rulers. Thats why I compared Strigos to Britonnia a few pages ago but I woud like to speak in defence of vampires as citizens.
Since warhammer vampires don't have to, in fact almost have to deliberatly try, to kill or sire when they feed and because their need to feed is partly psychological it is possible for them to live peacfully and never kill or violate another person if they are sufficiantly disaplined. Not so different from a medicatable mental health or dieitery condition.
We have a handful case studies of this in canon, Genevive for an open vampire and Ulrika and many Lahmians for hidden ones, even in this quest we have seen the behaviours that would allow it from Alk-harad (?). Unfortunatly even this form of living would be ripe for abuse thanks to their immortality and endorphine releasing bite.
Necrarchs never even need to kill at all, though they tend to be mad scientists even before becoming vampire that is a cultural problem not a biologocal on.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm pretty sure the fact that they never feed just means that the Dhar drives them crazier.
And, to be fair, Genevieve is rather old, lore-wise, and has probably been retconned since then. Hell, Drachenfels himself has definitely been retconned, at least to no longer literally be the oldest being in the world.
consequences
Not A Nice Person At All
- Location
- Jerkville
Eventually jaywalking becomes a feeding worthy offense. Then they get to move onto a lottery system.
The evidence seems to be that feeding doesn't have to result in death, it's just that vampires trend towards lazy assholes who take what they want with no regard for the damage done. Granted putting them officially in charge is unlikely to reduce that tendency at all.
So step one would seem to be to have Mathilde take a vampire or few of each bloodline prisoner(or just revive some of the skull collection) and experiment with resocializing them to determine if it is possible to integrate them into society. A medium term study of 50-80 years or so should be enough to draw some preliminary conclusions.
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Dhar isn't ment to drive vampires crazy the same way it does mortals though some sources to imply that it does to Necrarchs. On the other hand them living so long and being isolated from other people has consistantly been shown to make all vampire crazy if they are subjected to it so I'm partial to going with the simpler and more consistant message that isolation is bad for your mental health.
True. I've argued against including her in modern canon myself in the past but in this case she still serves as an example of what the "rules" of vampiredom in this setting can allow.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Speaking of, have we ever gotten it fully confirmed that Gabriella isn't actually a vampire?
I know that she appears human, has at least one Divine blessing and gave birth, but we're seen lore examples of the latter two in the past and I would be highly surprised if Ranald could not disguise one of his favoured followers as a Human.
I know that she appears human, has at least one Divine blessing and gave birth, but we're seen lore examples of the latter two in the past and I would be highly surprised if Ranald could not disguise one of his favoured followers as a Human.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm past the point of worrying about it. If she is, she's got a larger population of Sigmarite priests around her than probably anywhere else in the world.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
But if she is, then she could've saved Abel by giving him the blood kiss!
I didn't ask because I was worried about her supply of acceptable targets. <.<
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, in all fairness, I don't think it's worth even ONE unnecessary death to figure this shit out. Just stake 'em.Eventually jaywalking becomes a feeding worthy offense. Then they get to move onto a lottery system.
The evidence seems to be that feeding doesn't have to result in death, it's just that vampires trend towards lazy assholes who take what they want with no regard for the damage done. Granted putting them officially in charge is unlikely to reduce that tendency at all.
So step one would seem to be to have Mathilde take a vampire or few of each bloodline prisoner(or just revive some of the skull collection) and experiment with resocializing them to determine if it is possible to integrate them into society. A medium term study of 50-80 years or so should be enough to draw some preliminary conclusions.
I don't think she was even there when Abelhelm was dying.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I don't think Skaven makes for a healthy diet.
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Only if you think that Bretonnia is an example of a human nation working. Hint: Its really not.
No, i mean they are basically humans, and warpstone doesn't do anything to vampires.
I mean, i was talking about viability not morality. It would be bad, but better than being killed by orcs or beast men every fewyears.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
She was in the area, vampires (Lahmia in particular) are known for their supernatural speed and she has a hotline to a God who both knew Abel was dying and is in charge of miraculous coincidences.
It could've worked as long as Ranald would let her do it!
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I mean the strigoi are actually the opposite they're the nail in the coffin that Vampires can co-exist with humans long term. Feeding on anything other than humans (Probably elves and dwarves are fine) leads to serious long term mutation and fucks up the vampire involved. There's a reason why the Strigoi are bestial in form from eating beastmen and orcs.
The Necarchs living off dhar drives them insane in ways that merely using dhar doesn't do for the carstein lineage or other vampires, and it all comes down to ultimately why vampires have to drink blood, it makes a degree of sense when you think about the fact that they're literally drawing soul stuff in from blood to make up for a lack of their own due to their souls connection being cut off from the warp. Beastmen and Orc souls are not the same as human souls and so what the vampire draws from their blood is inherently different and changes them.
The Necarchs living off dhar drives them insane in ways that merely using dhar doesn't do for the carstein lineage or other vampires, and it all comes down to ultimately why vampires have to drink blood, it makes a degree of sense when you think about the fact that they're literally drawing soul stuff in from blood to make up for a lack of their own due to their souls connection being cut off from the warp. Beastmen and Orc souls are not the same as human souls and so what the vampire draws from their blood is inherently different and changes them.
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