Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Speaking about pretty decent vampire guys, is there any chance of some Strigoi managing to keep their sanity and dreams of peaceful coexistence? I feel really bad about what happened to those guys.
Much as I like stories where vampires live alongside humans peacefully, and will always argue against the idea that vampires are not intrisically evil, and as much as the Strigoi may have been screwed over by the other vampires. Their idea of coxistance was, at best, on par with Bretonnian social equality and at worst was the kind of coexistance we have with cows.
 
Much as I like stories where vampires live alongside humans peacefully, and will always argue against the idea that vampires are not intrisically evil, and as much as the Strigoi may have been screwed over by the other vampires. Their idea of coxistance was, at best, on par with Bretonnian social equality and at worst was the kind of coexistance we have with cows.
And think that as long as we only ate the evil ones, the cows would consider that a pretty good deal.
I know they were not perfect, but they were trying and they were better than most alternatives, but I get the point.
 
Much as I like stories where vampires live alongside humans peacefully, and will always argue against the idea that vampires are not intrisically evil, and as much as the Strigoi may have been screwed over by the other vampires. Their idea of coxistance was, at best, on par with Bretonnian social equality and at worst was the kind of coexistance we have with cows.
... Is this were we make a Kyubey-style speech about how being treated like cattle is an evolutionary advantage when living in an area filled with an apex predator like Homo sapiens?
 
... Is this were we make a Kyubey-style speech about how being treated like cattle is an evolutionary advantage when living in an area filled with an apex predator like Homo sapiens?
...that was a thing? I mean, I could one hundred percent believe that evil bunny-cat alien bastard would say something to that effect, but it's been awhile and I don't remember it specifically.
 
...that was a thing? I mean, I could one hundred percent believe that evil bunny-cat alien bastard would say something to that effect, but it's been awhile and I don't remember it specifically.
Kinda sorta, he compared how the Incubators treat humans to how humans treat cattle* in an attempt to convince Madoka it was a good system. Camplete with saying that cattle have higher survival rates in captivity.
*while claiming moral superiority since the Incubators at least made sure to have uninformed consent from their livestock

EDIT: Episode 10, for the record
 
...that was a thing? I mean, I could one hundred percent believe that evil bunny-cat alien bastard would say something to that effect, but it's been awhile and I don't remember it specifically.
I don't remember it, but there is an argument to be made along the lines of how if the domesticated pig wasn't domesticated it would be extinct like the wild boar.

Of course, sapient cattle has the drawbacks of being cattle shoot right up, but if a species was completely emotionless and only cared about its survival to the exclusion of all else it would actually make sense. If the Incubators were in humanities' shoes, they probably wouldn't be nearly as upset about the system as we would be.
 
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*while claiming moral superiority since the Incubators at least made sure to have uninformed consent from their livestock
I mean, if you consider ripping out their souls and incubating said souls in the process of evolving into a twisted caricature of their former selves intent only on killing everything and everyone around them so as to feed off the generated despair morally superior. I mean, sure, I won't say raising a creature in captivity from birth to death as a source of sustenance is good—despite the alternative being to hunt down and brutally murder things in their natural habitat—but it's definitely a different kettle of fish from what the incubators do.
On the other hand, this could only really be considered on topic if compared to how Daemons and chaos gods treat mortals in Warhammer. I forget, does Chaos have a tendency to rip your souls out of your body and transform you into a heartless engine of death and destruction, or are those separate processes in Warhammer?
 
I mean, "only eat the criminals" was pretty explicitly what Vlad practiced.
Sylvania must have been the criminal-capital of the Empire, then, given that Vlad sired an entire Nightly Aristocracy. A lot of vampires need a lot of blood.

I think when they got a bit hungry and didn't have anybody in jail for sheep-stealing, they wouldn't too broken up about expanding their menu.
 
Sylvania must have been the criminal-capital of the Empire, then, given that Vlad sired an entire Nightly Aristocracy. A lot of vampires need a lot of blood.

I think when they got a bit hungry and didn't have anybody in jail for sheep-stealing, they wouldn't too broken up about expanding their menu.
They only took blood from criminals and volunteers, but refusing to volunteer was a crime sooooo...
(not serious, but it wouldn't surprise me)
 
Sylvania must have been the criminal-capital of the Empire, then, given that Vlad sired an entire Nightly Aristocracy. A lot of vampires need a lot of blood.

I think when they got a bit hungry and didn't have anybody in jail for sheep-stealing, they wouldn't too broken up about expanding their menu.
Vlad might have done that, but I doubt his spawn kept up the same practices. Especially considering Konrad and Manfredd.
 
Stop: Violation of Thread Policy Number Thirty Two: Electric Boogaloo
Congratulations on dragging us all down by your presence. At least pretend to engage with the vote on some real level.
Fun fact; people tend to get invested in characters and can react badly when some idiot smacks them together with another character because 'it'd be funny'. I want Mathilde to find a fulfilling relationship with a character who she is both compatible with and who has been expounded upon enough by BoneyM that they can also be invested in. Not some random thing because lol.

violation of thread policy number thirty two: electric boogaloo
This is not civil even by the normal standard of Rule 3, and especially not in a thread which has especially heightened standards for this sort of thing because of how heated arguments can sometimes get. As a result, this has been given a standard infraction under the thread policy, with an attendant threadban.

In general, just because you might disagree or dislike another player's preference in a Quest, it does not mean that they are not engaged, or do not have their own passionate reasons for wanting their vote. Questing, after all, is about having fun, and there are no hard and fast rules for what other people find fun or compelling. It can be important to remember that, and to remember to be kind to one another. Disagreement and argument can be great, but questioning another player's good intent like this makes it very hard to respond to in a constructive or positive way.

Thanks for your time.
 
Speaking about pretty decent vampire guys, is there any chance of some Strigoi managing to keep their sanity and dreams of peaceful coexistence? I feel really bad about what happened to those guys.
Much as I like stories where vampires live alongside humans peacefully, and will always argue against the idea that vampires are not intrisically evil, and as much as the Strigoi may have been screwed over by the other vampires. Their idea of coxistance was, at best, on par with Bretonnian social equality and at worst was the kind of coexistance we have with cows.
Man, the more I learn about Warhammer Fantasy lore, the more I appreciate Penetrator Quest (link in my signature). It actually featured a city/bastion of vampires on the edge of the Badlands that was a highly successful example of peaceful coexistence between vampires and humans. The leadership was a couple of more reasonable and responsible members of the Von Carstein line for the political/logistical side, a Wallach-tier Blood Dragon that led an order of Blood Dragon knights that, while they aren't exactly good guys in most senses, are at least not the kind of pointlessly destructive evil that the vampires are known for (and, indeed, were able to be bribed into being "good"), and on the magical side, a brilliant Necrarch (but not really) that's every bit a mad scientist that loves the notion of innovation and surpassing limitations--but is not delusional or self-destructive and actually constructed a wizard tower to absorb the ambient dhar from the necromancy and his experiments and thus prevent the landscape from turning into a poisoned wasteland. There were even some sane Strigoi (sane because, when this society was founded many centuries ago, the leadership found and recruited any relatively sane Strigoi vampire they found, gave them companionship and respect, and thus prevented any further sanity slippage)!

I love it even more, now, seeing vampires not being totally evil douchebags, but seeing their best aspects while not ignoring their flaws and unsavory elements. The main character is horrified when he learns about the true nature of wights, for example, and he only joins them on the condition that they never start a fight with the forces of Order/Good while he's a member. But we also get to see how sane Blood Dragon vampires would function in a society of their making--they abhor killing anything that can't fight back, seek out good fights while still enjoying some downtime, devote a bunch of time and resources towards scouring the region of any significant concentration of orcs so that their city remains safe, and any mortal human that distinguishes him- or herself in battle gets offered the Blood Kiss as an honor and gets to join the Fellhanded as a full-fledged knight.

We also get to see how vampiric mages would work in a functional manner--while necromancy is taught and used, necromancy on the population of their society or on civilians is forbidden, and any human mortal who is found to have potential with magic is offered the Blood Kiss and trained to be a mage, with a focus on non dark magic. As a result of being immortal and having fantastic mages to learn from, they become exceptionally skilled and powerful, but by using dhar as a crutch, but through sheer experience, training, and plenty of preparation (such as making advanced staffs, power stones, etc). Of course, their leader is still more than a bit reckless and cares little for ethics (but is not cruel, for he sees being cruel as a pointless waste of time), so he's infamous for the times when his crazy-ass experiments actually get loose and have to be put down, but he is 100% trustworthy when it comes to sticking to agreements, repaying favors owed, and not hurting/betraying his allies. He's generally regarded as creepy as hell (and actually puts effort into maintaining such a reputation, like deliberately speaking in a creepy manner even though he can totally speak normally), and if you visit his wizard tower, you can expect to hear screams from some poor orc or beastman that's part of his latest experiments, but he's nothing like Zacharias the Everliving, who's insane, monstrous for no reason, and uses dhar like he's addicted to it.

It's a society where the land is tough, but you're much safer there than you would be in the Border Princes, and while your leaders and elite warriors are definitely people to be a bit wary around in general, there are plenty of cases of vampires and humans coexisting happily and productively.

Militarily, they're absolutely fearsome. A large army of skeletons and wights is bad enough. Back that a whole bunch of vampiric knights? That's terrifying. Back that with a cadre of very old, very powerful mages that don't rely on just flinging around dark magic, and have experience in working together? And a whole bunch of high-tier hero units that either have undead dragon mounts or use power stone-laden master-crafted magic staffs? You get a force that can bring down nations if it really gets serious and launches a full crusade. This is a faction that reacts to the presence of a Great Daemon not with "oh shit" but instead "Awesome! I wanna fight that!"
 
Man, the more I learn about Warhammer Fantasy lore, the more I appreciate Penetrator Quest (link in my signature). It actually featured a city/bastion of vampires on the edge of the Badlands that was a highly successful example of peaceful coexistence between vampires and humans. The leadership was a couple of more reasonable and responsible members of the Von Carstein line for the political/logistical side, a Wallach-tier Blood Dragon that led an order of Blood Dragon knights that, while they aren't exactly good guys in most senses, are at least not the kind of pointlessly destructive evil that the vampires are known for (and, indeed, were able to be bribed into being "good"), and on the magical side, a brilliant Necrarch (but not really) that's every bit a mad scientist that loves the notion of innovation and surpassing limitations--but is not delusional or self-destructive and actually constructed a wizard tower to absorb the ambient dhar from the necromancy and his experiments and thus prevent the landscape from turning into a poisoned wasteland. There were even some sane Strigoi (sane because, when this society was founded many centuries ago, the leadership found and recruited any relatively sane Strigoi vampire they found, gave them companionship and respect, and thus prevented any further sanity slippage)!

I love it even more, now, seeing vampires not being totally evil douchebags, but seeing their best aspects while not ignoring their flaws and unsavory elements. The main character is horrified when he learns about the true nature of wights, for example, and he only joins them on the condition that they never start a fight with the forces of Order/Good while he's a member. But we also get to see how sane Blood Dragon vampires would function in a society of their making--they abhor killing anything that can't fight back, seek out good fights while still enjoying some downtime, devote a bunch of time and resources towards scouring the region of any significant concentration of orcs so that their city remains safe, and any mortal human that distinguishes him- or herself in battle gets offered the Blood Kiss as an honor and gets to join the Fellhanded as a full-fledged knight.

We also get to see how vampiric mages would work in a functional manner--while necromancy is taught and used, necromancy on the population of their society or on civilians is forbidden, and any human mortal who is found to have potential with magic is offered the Blood Kiss and trained to be a mage, with a focus on non dark magic. As a result of being immortal and having fantastic mages to learn from, they become exceptionally skilled and powerful, but by using dhar as a crutch, but through sheer experience, training, and plenty of preparation (such as making advanced staffs, power stones, etc). Of course, their leader is still more than a bit reckless and cares little for ethics (but is not cruel, for he sees being cruel as a pointless waste of time), so he's infamous for the times when his crazy-ass experiments actually get loose and have to be put down, but he is 100% trustworthy when it comes to sticking to agreements, repaying favors owed, and not hurting/betraying his allies. He's generally regarded as creepy as hell (and actually puts effort into maintaining such a reputation, like deliberately speaking in a creepy manner even though he can totally speak normally), and if you visit his wizard tower, you can expect to hear screams from some poor orc or beastman that's part of his latest experiments, but he's nothing like Zacharias the Everliving, who's insane, monstrous for no reason, and uses dhar like he's addicted to it.

It's a society where the land is tough, but you're much safer there than you would be in the Border Princes, and while your leaders and elite warriors are definitely people to be a bit wary around in general, there are plenty of cases of vampires and humans coexisting happily and productively.

Militarily, they're absolutely fearsome. A large army of skeletons and wights is bad enough. Back that a whole bunch of vampiric knights? That's terrifying. Back that with a cadre of very old, very powerful mages that don't rely on just flinging around dark magic, and have experience in working together? And a whole bunch of high-tier hero units that either have undead dragon mounts or use power stone-laden master-crafted magic staffs? You get a force that can bring down nations if it really gets serious and launches a full crusade. This is a faction that reacts to the presence of a Great Daemon not with "oh shit" but instead "Awesome! I wanna fight that!"
Cynically, this kind of thing remains stable right up until they start winning hard enough that the surrounding area is at peace for a while, and the supply of involuntary blood donors and test subjects drawn from among the orks and beastmen dries up. As soon as the population of vampires outruns their preferred prey sapients, they'll start shifting to different ones.

I don't mind having breeds of superhumans kicking around, but ones that will directly prey upon humans in the absence of other more socially accepted food supplies are too much for me.
 
Cynically, this kind of thing remains stable right up until they start winning hard enough that the surrounding area is at peace for a while, and the supply of involuntary blood donors and test subjects drawn from among the orks and beastmen dries up. As soon as the population of vampires outruns their preferred prey sapients, they'll start shifting to different ones.

I don't mind having breeds of superhumans kicking around, but ones that will directly prey upon humans in the absence of other more socially accepted food supplies are too much for me.
...we're talking about orcs and beastmen. You will never "run out" of them. Well, and Skaven.

Running out of enemies is really not a problem in Warhammer Fantasy. Period.
 
...we're talking about orcs and beastmen. You will never "run out" of them. Well, and Skaven.

Running out of enemies is really not a problem in Warhammer Fantasy. Period.
You only need a year or two without enough of them hanging around that immediate area. Which, if they're as badass as described, is bound to happen sooner or later.
 
Cynically, this kind of thing remains stable right up until they start winning hard enough that the surrounding area is at peace for a while, and the supply of involuntary blood donors and test subjects drawn from among the orks and beastmen dries up. As soon as the population of vampires outruns their preferred prey sapients, they'll start shifting to different ones.

I don't mind having breeds of superhumans kicking around, but ones that will directly prey upon humans in the absence of other more socially accepted food supplies are too much for me.
Actually in the lore, one should always remember the kingdom of Strigos, when the founder of the namesake vampire bloodline, Ushoran, actually ran his kingdom effectively by doing two simple things:
1) Severely limiting the number of vampires that existed. As in, only the extreme upper echelon of society could reasonably be expected to be vampires. Unfortunately this meant that there were too few vampires to turn the tide in the end.
2) By ensuring that only criminals, bandits and enemies were used as food. This, incidentally had the consequence of reducing crime, bolstering the economy.

Edit: I'm saying this because Strigos fell due to external factors, unlike Lahmizza which failed due to the vampires applying no laws unto themselves.
 
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Actually in the lore, one should always remember the kingdom of Strigos, when the founder of the namesake vampire bloodline, Ushoran, actually ran his kingdom effectively by doing two simple things:
1) Severely limiting the number of vampires that existed. As in, only the extreme upper echelon of society could reasonably be expected to be vampires. Unfortunately this meant that there were too few vampires to turn the tide in the end.
I mean that's kind of my point. If your argument is "vampires can use their supernatural powers to protect everyone else," and if there genuinely are a lot of threats out there that the normal human people of the realm would struggle to fight against... you're going to need quite a lot of vampires to hold off the threats. Which, in turn, means a lot more demand for victims.

2) By ensuring that only criminals, bandits and enemies were used as food. This, incidentally had the consequence of reducing crime, bolstering the economy.

Edit: I'm saying this because Strigos fell due to external factors, unlike Lahmizza which failed due to the vampires applying no laws unto themselves.
Given how good at fighting crime historical societies were when they used the death penalty for all kinds of things (e.g. England under the Bloody Code)... I'm not sure I buy the argument "having vampires prey on criminals will lower crime." Criminals already prey on each other, and criminals tend to have young, violent deaths or very ignoble retirement from the criminal lifestyle. Just executing any criminals you catch doesn't do much to stop crime, again with the example of, say, 1700s London to illustrate the principle.

The danger of vampires preying abusively on their own population is going to be constant, and since they are very far from the only source of strong supernatural powers in the setting, I don't think they form a necessary or desirable element of human/quasihuman societies. Better to be rid of the obligate serial killers, rather than trusting them to be public-minded and responsible in feeding their addictions.
 
I mean that's kind of my point. If your argument is "vampires can use their supernatural powers to protect everyone else," and if there genuinely are a lot of threats out there that the normal human people of the realm would struggle to fight against... you're going to need quite a lot of vampires to hold off the threats. Which, in turn, means a lot more demand for victims.


Given how good at fighting crime historical societies were when they used the death penalty for all kinds of things (e.g. England under the Bloody Code)... I'm not sure I buy the argument "having vampires prey on criminals will lower crime." Criminals already prey on each other, and criminals tend to have young, violent deaths or very ignoble retirement from the criminal lifestyle. Just executing any criminals you catch doesn't do much to stop crime, again with the example of, say, 1700s London to illustrate the principle.

The danger of vampires preying abusively on their own population is going to be constant, and since they are very far from the only source of strong supernatural powers in the setting, I don't think they form a necessary or desirable element of human/quasihuman societies. Better to be rid of the obligate serial killers, rather than trusting them to be public-minded and responsible in feeding their addictions.
It's not the severity of punishment, but the certainty. Vampiric domination to make everyone peripherally involved tell all they know about a crime, supernatural senses to detect blood, or being able to interrogate local ghosts and spirits all lend themselves to there being more certainty in an even halfway trying vampire run society than would normally be the case.
 
I mean that's kind of my point. If your argument is "vampires can use their supernatural powers to protect everyone else," and if there genuinely are a lot of threats out there that the normal human people of the realm would struggle to fight against... you're going to need quite a lot of vampires to hold off the threats. Which, in turn, means a lot more demand for victims.


Given how good at fighting crime historical societies were when they used the death penalty for all kinds of things (e.g. England under the Bloody Code)... I'm not sure I buy the argument "having vampires prey on criminals will lower crime." Criminals already prey on each other, and criminals tend to have young, violent deaths or very ignoble retirement from the criminal lifestyle. Just executing any criminals you catch doesn't do much to stop crime, again with the example of, say, 1700s London to illustrate the principle.

The danger of vampires preying abusively on their own population is going to be constant, and since they are very far from the only source of strong supernatural powers in the setting, I don't think they form a necessary or desirable element of human/quasihuman societies. Better to be rid of the obligate serial killers, rather than trusting them to be public-minded and responsible in feeding their addictions.
Which, again, was neatly avoided because the Fellhanded never fed on their own people, even criminals, because they only considered feeding off of enemies they had defeated in battle acceptable.
You only need a year or two without enough of them hanging around that immediate area. Which, if they're as badass as described, is bound to happen sooner or later.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. But the problem of saturation is partially solved by a lot of the Fellhanded being out and about much of the time, whether it's acting as mercenaries in Tilea, going off to fight orcs in the World's Edge Mountains, hunting Beastmen in the Empire, taking on some skaven near Skavenblight or...well, lots of places. It's not like they just sat around at home all the time.

Besides, there are tons of greenskins in the Badlands alone. There really isn't any danger of running out any time soon.

And remember: as badass as they are when they go to war, most of the time they aren't going to war (at least beyond a company level). The mages are doing research, developing their abilities, making power stones, etc; the warriors are training, earning money to spend on better arms/armor or earning favors to trade in for magical gear, hunting down bands of greenskins or beastmen, off on an expedition to fight some worthy foes half a continent away, etc.
 
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The Azrildrekked and the Very Large and Very Long Waystone Project

The shaft the magister walked out of was a good fifteen and three tenths paces across, twice that high, and with the characteristic cornicing and chisel marks that identify a large transit oriented not-orebearing tunnel, rather than the more common transit-oriented trunk tunnels following ore veins. (Although some of the side passages barely in view did suggest a transition to that pattern, and the 5/8 co-axial tooth-and-ramp up the main staircase rising in the dimness certainly implied that good metal had been taken out along the path the magister walked now, though no gleanings of iron dust remained.) She had just gotten final signatures from the King, the council, the Thanes, the guildmasters, and all clergies on a document allowing one elf for one day (defined as noon to noon) to come and study the mountains.

It was a good start.
Ah yes, the dwarf equivalent of a Light Novel.

A bit bare on details, but serviceable enough. A favorite of beardlings across the Karaz Ankor.
 
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