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Dogs of War was a very silly book.


He's not really a villain, per-se.

He's a Dwarf Slayer Pirate, leading a crew of Slayer Pirates.
the fact he is a pirate and not a merc or even a 'privater' points to him doing some bad stuff.

dwarfs can be bad guys too.


Are you telling me that the name of an actual canonical villain that someone at Games Workshop came up with and expected to be taken seriously is Long Drong?


canon character.

edit: god... those nipple rings... once you see them you can't unsee no matter how hard you try.
 
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the fact he is a pirate and not a merc or even a 'privater' points to him doing some bad stuff.

dwarfs can be bad guys too.





canon character.

edit: god... those nipple rings... once you see them you can't unsee no matter how hard you try.
Is... is he burning his beard! That is no Dawi! By the ancestor gods such disrespect brings such shame upon him and his clan that not even a glorious death can make up for his disrespect!
 
Had a thought about the golem and Kragg: what if we were approaching the rune visualization the wrong way? Something rather than trying to give Kragg the mage vision directly, which would have issue with dwarven magic resistance; nor building a screen to display what we see onto a 2d picture for him, which has problems with overlapping 'layers' on the soul as well as requiring an active wizard there to provide sensory input.

What if we partnered with a hysh mage to build a bunch of lights- designed to shine *through* the golem and cast shadows of the runes on the soul inside onto real walls behind it? It would be a strong, straightforward metaphor for the magic to work along, and it gives Kragg the flexibility to look at the runic array from multiple ways at the same time, purely by interacting with physical objects.

And since shadows are already a publicly proven interaction of magic and runecraft, well: let's get a future order of forensic tunesmiths, teasing apart and modifying creatures and constructs- working inside workshops with bright lights clustered on the floor, throwing x-ray images in shadows on the walls and ceiling.
 
I think that depends- I don't believe where exactly his castle is is ever stated. Roswita's forces only control up to Teufelheim, at best- if he's east of it, in the Misty or Tangled Woods, then I don't think anything we've done would necessarily slow him down.

Though given everything after the start of the quest is basically butterflied, there's no particular reason he'd ever come up, unless Boney felt like it.
It's not just a matter of the castle he used for his ritual. It's the fact that the entire apparatus of Von Carstein vampires and their libraries of lore for him to learn from in order to even get the idea to do what he did in the first place.
 
It's not just a matter of the castle he used for his ritual. It's the fact that the entire apparatus of Von Carstein vampires and their libraries of lore for him to learn from in order to even get the idea to do what he did in the first place.

Noctilus might have studied magic for multiple lifetimes - there's no guarantee he's in any way dependant on anything in the currently occupied Von Carstein lands.
 
I mean, in all fairness, I don't think it's worth even ONE unnecessary death to figure this shit out. Just stake 'em.

I don't think she was even there when Abelhelm was dying.

Considering how immortal vampires are, figuring this out will reduce net deaths on the long run, to be fair. Unless you figured how to permakill them.

This vampire discussion feels like it's starting to derail. Perhaps bring it back to something more related to this quest?

I really hope I am not overstepping my bounds, but I would have thought that, since we are on hiatus and since the discussion is tangentially on topic enough for figuring how we should deal with certain in universe threats we may eventually face, it is justified until the QM restarts this. Of course, I may be wrong, so I will comply if this is a common or QM or mod sentiment, its just that I currently cannot see it as a derail because hiatuses leading to discussion of more and more improbable and far away aspects of the settings we may have to face seems natural to me.
 
I mean, in all fairness, I don't think it's worth even ONE unnecessary death to figure this shit out. Just stake 'em.
How does that not cause unnecessary deaths? Vampire deaths in this case. I mean if we're going full rational society and moral behavior then vampires are humans at birth and retain significant parts of their human needs, human curiosity and human ingenuity. They just suffer from a complicated illness that, among many other things, also affects their minds. And gives them awesome superpowers and potential immortality.

So if we're completely fair then risking exactly one unnecessary death per vampire worth saving is okay. At least until the evidence suggests that, regardless of approach, they aren't worth it.
and gave birth, but we're seen lore examples of the latter
Vampires can give birth in the Warhammer universe? What's the lire example and how did it work out for everyone involved?
 
Vampires can give birth in the Warhammer universe? What's the lire example and how did it work out for everyone involved?
Neferata had children after becoming a vampire, or at least so was previously reported in this thread.

I will admit that 90% of my non-Lizardman lore knowledge comes from osmosis.
Huh. I missed this the first time. As a vampire counts player I can confidently say that this is non-canon. The only place where it might have been that I wouldn't see it is in the Nagash Time of Legends books but she doesn't ever mention it in her own book so I don't think so.
 
It's not just a matter of the castle he used for his ritual. It's the fact that the entire apparatus of Von Carstein vampires and their libraries of lore for him to learn from in order to even get the idea to do what he did in the first place.
Yeah.

[agrees with Salty, proceeds to talk about what Salty said a bit]

I think that's a big part of the reason the destruction of Castle Drachenfels is viewed in-setting as such a big deal. It's not just a place where a bunch of vampires live (though it's that too), it's also a place where said vampires had lots of tools and resources that they could use to become more dangerous.

Imagine if someone somehow managed to blow up, say, the headquarters of the Bright College. This wouldn't just kill a bunch of pyromancers who were in the building at the time; it would permanently, or semi-permanently, decrease the ability of Imperial wizards to wield aqshy and learn how to wield aqshy effectively. Great works that are possible with the Bright College's buildings still standing, are not going to remain possible without it.

Considering how immortal vampires are, figuring this out will reduce net deaths on the long run, to be fair. Unless you figured how to permakill them.
I don't agree.

Vampires are very immortal, but if you work hard at incapacitating them and keeping them as skulls in a vault or something, then you can in theory keep something like 90% or 99% of the extant vampire population out of circulation at any one time*.

By contrast, trying to maintain peaceful coexistence with superpowered beings who have the physical strength to beat up most of your soldiers and mental compulsion powers that make it relatively easy for them to just waltz in and stage a coup of your government if they're so inclined... and who like to eat people... is going to be inherently difficult. Vampire subcultures will not reliably stick to some kind of UBERLEET HONORABLE WARRIAH mentality whereby they never ever feed on the humans around them, and reliably obey human authorities, and instead focus all their aggression and powers on outside threats who are expendable and acceptable targets for feeding on anyway.

Given the track record of Warhammer Fantasy vampires, or for that matter vampires in fiction in general, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and accept your place one rung down the food chain from the suave superhuman pale bloodsuckers" is not a good, reliable, or stable strategy for the long-term prosperity of human civilization.
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*(Barring an End Times tier disaster in which case the vampires are just one more reason for civilization as you know it to be ending)

How does that not cause unnecessary deaths? Vampire deaths in this case. I mean if we're going full rational society and moral behavior then vampires are humans at birth and retain significant parts of their human needs, human curiosity and human ingenuity. They just suffer from a complicated illness that, among many other things, also affects their minds. And gives them awesome superpowers and potential immortality.
And gives them a strong desire, or outright need and compulsion, to kill and eat (selected parts of) other people.

My right to exist, to indulge in moral behavior and human curiosity and ingenuity does not give me the right to kill and eat other people. If I insist on exercising such "rights," then my death may very well become necessary, not unnecessary.
 
My right to exist, to indulge in moral behavior and human curiosity and ingenuity does not give me the right to kill and eat other people. If I insist on exercising such "rights," then my death may very well become necessary, not unnecessary.
Still agree with you for the most part but WH vampires don't have to kill when they feed and since being a vampire does not change your personality a society that contains other transhumans/transdwarfs (wizards, priests, cyborgs etc.) can enforce only feeding with consent the same way they do other laws.
 
Huh. I missed this the first time. As a vampire counts player I can confidently say that this is non-canon. The only place where it might have been that I wouldn't see it is in the Nagash Time of Legends books but she doesn't ever mention it in her own book so I don't think so.
It's from the Liber Necris. It's not the strongest statement, but I believe this is what people are referring too.

The beauty of each princess of Lahmia, many of whom were the cousins, daughters, and even granddaughters of Neferatem and all priestesses of her cult
(Page 35 of the Liber Necris, 1st paragraph)

At least, I'm not aware of a stronger allusion to Lahmians giving birth.

I don't think it'd be hard to argue against the idea that this means they can (maybe they all had children before they were made Vampires?) but I believe that's the origin.

Edit: Interestingly, for the current debate, the next page actually goes into how, as the centuries pass, all Vampires will inevitably come to treat mortals as nothing more than their prey. It's up to personal belief if you want to take that as authoritative, though- it's an in-universe document written by Mannfred, and while I'm sure he's known plenty of Vampires, I wouldn't exactly take him as the greatest judge of human morality.

Edit 2: Wait, found another mention of children.

The true-born vampires vampires learnt also that they could pass on their gift of eternity through their own blood. Other than Neferata, few of the first vampires wished to sire or conceive children and even Neferata left the rearing of her vampire-born children to others. The lords of Lahmia found that by giving their blood to another mortal they could create lesser vampires that could be controlled by their sire.
(Page 40 of the Liber Necris, 2nd paragraph)

So, my take from that is that those made a Vampire by drinking the Elixir of Immortality can have children, though it doesn't say anything about their progeny.

So, I think unless Heidi is Neferata, there's not much cause for concern.

(If Heidi is Neferata, then there's infinite cause for concern, but that seems unlikely)
 
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My right to exist, to indulge in moral behavior and human curiosity and ingenuity does not give me the right to kill and eat other people. If I insist on exercising such "rights," then my death may very well become necessary, not unnecessary.
I don't disagree with killing people that continue to be a threat to other people and can't be otherwise contained. I just disagreed that even an ideal society should just stake any vampires they meet on principle. If there's a possible way to feed vampires, monitor them, and make them productive members of society then it should be explored and vampires should only be tried for their crimes, keeping both their mental illness and their circumstances of living before being found in mind. Or maybe occasionally even negotiated with and given various forms of amnesty the way that rebel fighters often are.

This is of course from the viewpoint of an established and rationally governed society of considerable power. Killing vampires in self defense is fine. And as long as they rival the power of your law enforcement and aren't interested in submitting, negotiating, or even just leaving your citizen in peace, and are still organizing in their own secret organizations hostile to yours, they should be treated as a wartime opponent.

But if the only way your society can deal with a vampire seeking asylum is to stake them preemptively then there's still a problem to be solved. Preferably without genocide.
 
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It's from the Liber Necris. It's not the strongest statement, but I believe this is what people are referring too.


(Page 35 of the Liber Necris, 1st paragraph)

At least, I'm not aware of a stronger allusion to Lahmians giving birth.

I don't think it'd be hard to argue against the idea that this means they can (maybe they all had children before they were made Vampires?) but I believe that's the origin.

Edit: Interestingly, for the current debate, the next page actually goes into how, as the centuries pass, all Vampires will inevitably come to treat mortals as nothing more than their prey. It's up to personal belief if you want to take that as authoritative, though- it's an in-universe document written by Mannfred, and while I'm sure he's known plenty of Vampires, I wouldn't exactly take him as the greatest judge of human morality.

Edit 2: Wait, found another mention of children.


(Page 40 of the Liber Necris, 2nd paragraph)

So, my take from that is that those made a Vampire by drinking the Elixir of Immortality can have children, though it doesn't say anything about their progeny.

So, I think unless Heidi is Neferata, there's not much cause for concern.

(If Heidi is Neferata, then there's infinite cause for concern, but that seems unlikely)
My reading of those extracts would either be, like you say, that they had mortal children before the Blood Kiss or that they are refering to the Blood Kiss.

Occam's Razor would suggest that, baring explicit contradiction, these passages are refering to motral children of mortals or vampiric children of vampires rather then mortal children of vampires.
 
My reading of those extracts would either be, like you say, that they had mortal children before the Blood Kiss or that they are refering to the Blood Kiss.

Occam's Razor would suggest that, baring explicit contradiction, these passages are refering to motral children of mortals or vampiric children of vampires rather then mortal children of vampires.
The second passage I found definitely seems to be saying that the true-born Vampires (Neferata, W'soran et. al.) can have actual children, but the rest can't.
 
My reading of those extracts would either be, like you say, that they had mortal children before the Blood Kiss or that they are refering to the Blood Kiss.

Occam's Razor would suggest that, baring explicit contradiction, these passages are refering to motral children of mortals or vampiric children of vampires rather then mortal children of vampires.
Why would that be what Occam's Razor suggests? Is there something somewhere that indicates that vampires are incapable of having biological children?

Genuine question, as I said earlier I am not well versed in anything east of Lustria.
 
The second passage I found definitely seems to be saying that the true-born Vampires (Neferata, W'soran et. al.) can have actual children, but the rest can't.
Accept that the standard means of refering to vampiric offspring is child-in-darkness and the whole book is an in-universe account by Mannfred that he admits is second or thrid hand. Early Mannfred is also known for using impresice and ambiguous language to imply he has more knowledge then he does (Gotrek and Felix and Vapire Wars novels for example).

(It is important that this is early Mannfred because by the Endtimes they had retconned Mannfred as being one if Neferata's children-in-darkness from after Lahmia's fall named Khaled who betrayed her to Urshoran in Strigos. As punishment she turned him into the first Vargheist the sold him to Arkhan and Nagash for Nagash's battle against Sigmar. Nagash reversed his degeneration somehow for some reason. We then lose track of him until he joins back up with original Mannfred during Vlad's reign. I'm sure you can see how this is incompatable with the Liber Necris.)
Why would that be what Occam's Razor suggests? Is there something somewhere that indicates that vampires are incapable of having biological children?

Genuine question, as I said earlier I am not well versed in anything east of Lustria.
Only the ambiguously worded extract that Mopman43 provided to my knowledge.
 
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Accept that the standard means of refering to vampiric offspring is child-in-darkness and the whole book is an in-universe account by Mannfred that he admits is second or thrid hand.
If it just said "sire", I'd agree with you on the terminology, but it also says "conceive", as well as:
Other than Neferata, few of the first vampires wished to sire or conceive children and even Neferata left the rearing of her vampire-born children to others.

Which seems to be a departure from the other bit. All the true-born vampires sired lesser vampires, but only Neferata had children. (As well as the fact that they required rearing, which wouldn't be the case with an adult made into a vampire)


Obviously, as an in-universe book, we could throw the entire thing away as biased and inaccurate, but we don't have any better sources. I don't think it's a stretch that the original vampires were capable of things their lesser spawn were not, potentially including have children.


At any rate, as I said earlier, in regards to the discussion that we had about Heidi, she's almost certainly not a vampire, unless she's Neferata herself. Which seems unlikely.
 
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I don't agree.

Vampires are very immortal, but if you work hard at incapacitating them and keeping them as skulls in a vault or something, then you can in theory keep something like 90% or 99% of the extant vampire population out of circulation at any one time*.

By contrast, trying to maintain peaceful coexistence with superpowered beings who have the physical strength to beat up most of your soldiers and mental compulsion powers that make it relatively easy for them to just waltz in and stage a coup of your government if they're so inclined... and who like to eat people... is going to be inherently difficult. Vampire subcultures will not reliably stick to some kind of UBERLEET HONORABLE WARRIAH mentality whereby they never ever feed on the humans around them, and reliably obey human authorities, and instead focus all their aggression and powers on outside threats who are expendable and acceptable targets for feeding on anyway.

Given the track record of Warhammer Fantasy vampires, or for that matter vampires in fiction in general, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and accept your place one rung down the food chain from the suave superhuman pale bloodsuckers" is not a good, reliable, or stable strategy for the long-term prosperity of human civilization.
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*(Barring an End Times tier disaster in which case the vampires are just one more reason for civilization as you know it to be ending)

But still, all vampires will be eventually freed, because disasters eventually happen to all vaults in WHF. When the scope of time is infinity, it is a case of "when" not "if". A way to make them permanently harmless will thus result in less death on the long run regardless of what it costs. It is not a matter of how many can be contained at any one time, it is about the absolute certainty that no containment can even be absolute, and as such, given infinite time, the victims of each singular vampire will be infinite regardless of containment procedure. Vampires have infinite time, and as such, will claim infinite victims unless permakilled or pacified.

I also aknowledge other people went there and that this misunderstanding is easy to make (heck, I have made it tons of times), but I personally never stated anything about vampires being the rulers in that scenario, only about vampires coexisting.
 
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