Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open

I think you are in the wrong college like many in the thread.

Seriously all this worry about letter and spirit of the vow and making sure we always follow the right and good thing that is the law tells me you have a big problem with the kind of torturous thinking the Grey College is all about.

Because at the end of the day the last thing people were worried about when they created the vow of poverty was actualy making the wizards stay poor.

The vow is about not abusing magic and hurting the empire for money, so as a magister in good standing so long as we follow this guideline and keep the polite political fiction that the vow demands we could go to sleep every night on a pile of gold bigger than three emperor dragons would know what to do with whitout problem.

I would love if people could just accept of it so we could stop having coments about being afraid of money and worried the bursar is going to crawl from under our bed in the middle of the night to kill us for having to much of it so we have to trown it away fast.

But I know this is a pipe dream at this point.
After all you are in the wrong college.
 
The sort of Perepetual that might be of use to Mathilde isn't a grunt worker, they're hyper-specialists in specific areas that don't require raw magical power. If the thread seems to be interested in hiring or moulding someone like that, I'll add it to the list.

Thanks for the clarification. What is the purchase list of specializations on offer, that Mathilde currently knows of? Do they include things ranging from Information Network management (I'm sure Mathilde's correspondence pile from EIC sources are only going to keep growing....) to outright Assassins, to Library specialists, to professional historians, to even Waystone maintenance?

For example, if we were to bring a Historian Perpetual to the coin collections we have the option to save on the turn we decide to save the coins (presuming we do), what does he or she bring to the table, to give the thread an idea how or when it's worth it, it might be to sink two College Favors on a Perpetual?
 
Last edited:
Outside the old world the Asur used to be matriarchal before the fall of the chaos gates and have been about equal to the Empire since then. While the Druchii are all equal beneath Malekith's pointy boot heel. (Important note that witchelves and sorcerresses are the exception and most female and male Druchii dress equally silly with the spiky armour and the exposed skin in cold tempretures.)
Pretty sure the average Asur commoner would not be expected to be on their fifth or sixth child once they reach the equivalent of Mathilde's age, so I'd say they are still batter than the Imperials in this matter.

On a sillier note, how egalitarian are the Chaos Tribes? They seem to be mostly under the thumb of the Chaos Gods, who are either indifferent to gender or aggressively indifferent in Slaneesh's case, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were better on this particular aspect than you'd expect.
 
Pretty sure the average Asur commoner would not be expected to be on their fifth or sixth child once they reach the equivalent of Mathilde's age, so I'd say they are still batter than the Imperials in this matter.

On a sillier note, how egalitarian are the Chaos Tribes? They seem to be mostly under the thumb of the Chaos Gods, who are either indifferent to gender or aggressively indifferent in Slaneesh's case, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were better on this particular aspect than you'd expect.
For chaos it probably varies by tribe given that the only real common trait seems to be Might makes Right.
 
As I understand it, the Grey's attitude to wealth in this quest is basically 'so long as you don't make it by using magic to mindscrew people, or get too blatant about hording it, it's AOK'. The letter of the law is mostly there to keep people from being too tempted to push the limits of what they can get away with.
 
I think part of the problem we haven't seen what the benefits of this situational ability to more easily requisition manpower, is that so far, we haven't really tried to see what dropping College Favor to get people in your project can really do for Mathilde, aside from the Tower of Gazul which is an upper end-use case banked rolled by Belegar. But I do think that there is a very real possibility that even something as simple as hiring a Research Assistant/Lab Tech/Personal Assistant from a Prepetual in the Grey College can go a very long way in improving Mathilde's capabilities to do more with her time, which at the end of the day, is what AP hell really is. There is a very good reason why influential people with many responsibilities hire personal assistants, and I get the feeling Mathilde is reaching the point where a PA/RA to handle the various lower level time-consuming (preparing experimental material, cleaning up after experiments, running down to the publishers, passing messengers, getting testers off the streets, sorting and filtering Correspondance, searching for relevant literature, sending and collecting publications from the printers, helping with sundry domestic tasks in a large home, the list goes on) aspects of some of her actions can have some impact on AP Hell, which at the end of the day simply is an abstraction of Mathilde's limited woman-hours.

I think the only question, is the favor exchange rate actually worth it, for the benefits it might bring to Mathilde's time constraints? For example, if Mathilde wants to save the coins, would the manhours saved on her research project help Mathilde carve out the time to take a look at the coins from her AP Hell? Because to be honest, if the effective exchange is 4 College Favors to carve out that one AP needed to save the coins without having to sacrifice on too many actions Mathilde wants to do, that expenditure might be really worth it.
Naw, thing with spending Favor getting help with projects is mostly that Mathilde usually works in fields where:
-Information security is maximum. She can't get help because she's doing things which are kind of secret and/or illegal. Borderline or otherwise
--E.g. anything working with Skaven requires read in operatives, any multiwind hijinks should be after she can be sure there won't be Dhar production, etc. AV research at its current juncture is pending Mathilde finishing testing on accidental Dhar production and conducting...if not heretical(because Ranald is a pretty cool guy about that stuff), then ill advised to announce research in poking it with divine power.

-Mathilde is the current leading expert in the field, and the field is about one wizard deep because its groundbreaking research. She can't get help because she's the expert.

-Mathilde has not done enough research to know who she wants to bring into the project yet.
--Early AV research, where it was just Strange Liquid.

-The research isn't worth the moo yet, or she has someone usable on hand already so she doesn't need to splurge.

I'd note we frequently and readily spend favors on getting help when the above conditions are cleared, and when getting help is part of the option itself.
Knowing them they'll just immediately unleash a Zombie Apocalypse in the Under Empire and wipe themselves out.
I mean, just look at Skryre, they already accidentally unleashed a zombie apocalypse...right there...in the vault.

...did they find a Book of Nagash and the Skaven in question reanimated the dead and silenced his fellows before running for it?
So, as a general question. How do people feel about our constantly increasing wealth?
More specifically, how do we feel about the Vow of Poverty we took?

Because I'm becoming more and more uncomfortable with how we are dealing with our vow and our relationship with wealth.

Vows are forever and they are made in both the spirit and the letter of said vows. This is generally how I consider them. If you are not willing to stick to it forever, don't make them. If you change your mind, take steps to disavow yourself.

But there must certainly be other opinions floating around. Considering the boat-plan. Or how some voters talk about wealth. Or how it is considered inevitable that we are called to the Bursar again. Is it not our goal to avoid being called to the Bursar?

In my mind, our intentions with the money don't really matter. Give it to someone who'll do the same with it that you trust. Or give it all the the College. There is very little reason in my mind why we should have money in the first place.

Thoughts?
There is no problem, whether in letter or in spirit of the Vow.
It keeps coming up because players have difficulty understanding a Vow which is MEANT to be skirted, with big obvious loopholes.

The spirit of the vow simply rules out accumulation of wealth in her position as a private citizen of the Empire. This is to ensure that her wealth is associated with an organization and thus gained through the lawful operation of that organization rather than theft and deception.
The letter of the vow makes it clear that you are intended to skirt it, or you wouldn't be able to reliably pay your College dues and taxes in the first place and you wouldn't have standard rates for Grey Wizard hiring which is significantly higher than the taxes for Magisters. Books do not count. Equipment do not count. Employees do not count. Towers do not count. We have a Grey wizard having famous collections of very expensive to build enchanted towers filled with very expensive books as our leader.

Thus far the closest thing to actually infringing on the Vow of Poverty was the dragonbone luxury chair and silk sheets, except we're getting both of those as non-monetary benefits of our lawful employment. We spend basically all our money on our tower, book collection, and research, all of which are spent into the economy of Imperial allies.

The Bursar approved of our wealth acquisition, because almost all of it comes from being a benefit to the Empire and its allies, and because she has checked and when it comes to loot splits and rewards, Mathilde did not once ask for money.

We do not, in fact, have too much money. Our ability to spend it grows exactly as fast as our ability to gain it.
Well, we might end up in a romantic relationship with Johann, which sounds pretty bad to me.
Well, if you're Skryre yes.
Our last date with Johann rocked the world!
There was giant laser dragons and explosions and all.
 
Last edited:
On a sillier note, how egalitarian are the Chaos Tribes? They seem to be mostly under the thumb of the Chaos Gods, who are either indifferent to gender or aggressively indifferent in Slaneesh's case, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were better on this particular aspect than you'd expect.
It was pointed out that they might be the best out of anyone!
How far north does still count as being part if the Old World? Because those are the only regions where it is possible to wield power and status without discrimination while openly being a member of the third, fourth, or fifth gender. :V
 
While this is potentially viable as an economic gambit, if you're nervous about your Vow of Poverty, creating a chain of banks is probably not the direction to be going in.
It would be in keeping with the spirit of the Vow of Poverty if we limit Mathilde's access to the funds to loans or grants. If Mathilde has to draft loan applications, mortgage contracts, or grant applications to actually use "her" money, then the Grey College will have a clear record of all of Mathilde's finances. If people raise stink we'd be able to just point at the books and the results (venture/property/papers) and prove that Mathilde's only been using the money for the good of the Empire as a whole.

Would that work @BoneyM?
 
Last edited:
It would be in keeping with the spirit of the Vow of Poverty if we limit Mathilde's access to the funds to loans or grants. If Mathilde has to draft loan applications, mortgage contracts, or grant applications to actually use "her" money, then the Grey College will have a clear record of all of Mathilde's finances. If people raise stink we'd be able to just point at the books and the results (venture/property/papers) and prove that Mathilde's only been using the money for the good of the Empire as a whole.

Would that work @BoneyM?
If you wanted to do that you might as well just invest that money into EIC operations and let them know about this banking idea.
Or you know, directly put the money into our cactus fief and watch what they make of it.

Mathilde has a lot of money for an independent individual, but the cactus fief can swallow every coin she puts in and still have plenty of room. So can the EIC.
 
[] Spoken Queekish + Wolf /w no Overwork (Rafin-QWNo)

[] Spoken Queekish + AV /w no Overwork (Rafin-QANo)

[] Spoken Queekish + Wolf & AV with Overwork (Rafin-QWAYes)

Link to post.
Ah, those. I think it was because you didn't have Waystone classes?

Pretty sure the average Asur commoner would not be expected to be on their fifth or sixth child once they reach the equivalent of Mathilde's age, so I'd say they are still batter than the Imperials in this matter.
While my Asur-fu is not strong, my understanding was that they are having a population decline; so I imagine that the average Asur commoner would be thrilled to have five or six children period, and producing them all by the equivalent of Mathilde's age would make them the Elf counterpart of Kazador's wife.
 
Last edited:
If you wanted to do that you might as well just invest that money into EIC operations and let them know about this banking idea.
Or you know, directly put the money into our cactus fief and watch what they make of it.

Mathilde has a lot of money for an independent individual, but the cactus fief can swallow every coin she puts in and still have plenty of room. So can the EIC.
It's just that I don't trust the human EIC to keep to the values that we instilled over the long term. Dwarfs will make much better, much more honest bankers I feel.

I suppose we could enlist the Cult of Handrich but that doesn't seem kosher for Ranaldians.
 
Last edited:
It would be in keeping with the spirit of the Vow of Poverty if we limit Mathilde's access to the funds to loans or grants. If Mathilde has to draft loan applications, mortgage contracts, or grant applications to actually use "her" money, then the Grey College will have a clear record of all of Mathilde's finances. If people raise stink we'd be able to just point at the books and the results (venture/property/papers) and prove that Mathilde's only been using the money for the good of the Empire as a whole.

Would that work @BoneyM?

I can't help but fell that would backfire horribly.
With so much effort invested to create a perfect paper trail for every single purcharse we make the college would be up in arms to figure out what we need such trough aliby for before we can blink.
 
-The research isn't worth the moo yet, or she has someone usable on hand already so she doesn't need to splurge.

I wonder, is an info-sec risky endeavor to bring a Perpetual Apprentice Historian-specialist into the Coin preservation project? On one hand, the Grand Urbaz and Belegar deciding that there is no debate regarding these defunct accounts is something Mathilde might have to keep secret to protect Belegar's Honor, on the other hand, it might be that a Historian will spot things about the coin collections and their historical value that Mathilde, who isn't a historian specialist would miss, and Mathilde doesn't necessarily have to explain the provenance of the coin samples beyond being old coin samples found in recovered vaults during the reconquest of the Eight Peaks, that Mathilde used her authority as Loremaster to preserve, but an analyst would be useful in telling her what she exactly got on her hands.

Because I do think that part of the reason why things aren't worth the moo, is because Prepetuals have never been seen in action before, and I think the Coins may serve as a good test-case to see when Perpetual Specialists can be very, very helpful, since right now, these are one of the purchase actions that are a mystery to the thread, beyond the use-case of the Tower of Gazul, which was expensive true, and extremely impressive, but we are talking about Lord Magisters here , not Perpetuals.
 
Last edited:
The process uses literal gold, but the result is not literal gold, it is conceptual gold. The gilded body parts are not turned to solid metal, they are idealized, and they're still warm, malleable, and functional.
... Question, what happens to the gold upon the death of the Wizard? And does it visibly age as the wizard does?

Because corpses that never decay or fall apart could be very useful, yes.

While my Asur-fu is not strong, my understanding was that they are having a population decline; so I imagine that the average Asur commoner would be thrilled to have five or six children period, and producing them all by the equivalent of Mathilde's age would make them the Elf counterpart of Kazador's wife.
I mean, I am also living in a country facing a population decline (like most of Europe) and I very much do not want to have five or six children, so I don't think you can just make an assumption like that.

And honestly, the idea that someone should be heavily pressured to have children just because the population is falling really bugs me. No, Belegar does not need to have children if he doesn't want to, we shouldn't use the boon to pressure him into doing so!

Besides, we all know that Kazador can do the work on his own. Wouldn't be much worse in terms of population genetics than humanity already is.
 
Last edited:
The process uses literal gold, but the result is not literal gold, it is conceptual gold. The gilded body parts are not turned to solid metal, they are idealized, and they're still warm, malleable, and functional.
Oh. I thought that they worked akin to metal golems or something. Smooth and malleable to themselves as if they were still flesh, thus not impairing movement in any way, but hard and unyielding towards any outside forces. I mean if a blade swung against a gilded forearm reacts as if it hit a piece of metal, shouldn't the same be true for a finger poking a gilded belly?
 
Well, if you're Skryre yes.
Our last date with Johann rocked the world!
There was giant laser dragons and explosions and all.

Say it after me. Power couple!

Just imagine how much more we can rock the world with more such dates! Surreptitious Intervention in action!

I'm actually happy Ratling Guns are winning this turn's lead action plan, because I get the feeling if the dice rolls are good, we are going to rock the world a second time.

Remember, if Mathilde's motivation is to change the world, the best sort of husband is the husband that is by her side while she changes the world, and enables her to change the world. I myself doubt that Mathilde would be truly happy with anyone less than that, given this is the Mathilde who gently turned down sweet Anton, who represents the other model of shelter and haven.

Yes, Johann deceived us at the start, We regard Ranald in all of his four aspects, Deceiver included as our oldest friend. Given Mathilde's paranoia, a person Mathilde can truly trust is abit of an oxymoron, unless you are talking about a Dwarf. If trustworthiness was a quality Mathilde demanded in a romantic partner, she would not find one indeed because of her innate Paranoia as a Grey Magister. In that sense, Johann being untrustworthy is just a fact of life for Mathilde's expectations of most people, not a particularly special sin, and Mathilde can work with that. From Mathilde's perspective, the real deal-breaker is if Johann outright acts traitorously, something we have zero reasons to believe is the case. But Johann, her partner in crime in changing the world? Ah, that slides right into Mathilde's self-actualization preferences.

So yes, I'd gladly argue that Johann is both an ironic ship, a plausible ship, and very much a ship Mathilde the Ranaldite and Paranoic Grey Magister probably realistically can have, because almost no-one can be trusted anyway, and if perfect honesty was a decisive criterion, she would have said yes to Anton. If trust is a dealbreaker for Mathilde, romance is impossible, because Mathilde is a Grey Paranoic.
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure the average Asur commoner would not be expected to be on their fifth or sixth child once they reach the equivalent of Mathilde's age, so I'd say they are still batter than the Imperials in this matter.

On a sillier note, how egalitarian are the Chaos Tribes? They seem to be mostly under the thumb of the Chaos Gods, who are either indifferent to gender or aggressively indifferent in Slaneesh's case, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were better on this particular aspect than you'd expect.

Not at all.

There is one recorded canonical Daemon Princess in the setting IIRC, and she was pretty much being carried by Plot Power the whole way up because "Whoops we need a token chick".

One part of it boils down to "Tabletop Wargame can't be bothered to have more than one or two variants of a given piece." But from what was going on from the Warhammer Online art direction, apparently the reason why the only Chaos classes that have female versions are the two casters boils down to "By the time they register as an actual Character, you couldn't tell the difference of what they were in the first place anyway, the Chosen are hulking monsters in plate, and the Marauders are mutated so much from what they were in the first place that what's left is pretty much a generic combat body"

So yeah, no, Chaos is literally the least egalitarian faction in the setting. Boils down to their taste in Fantasy breaking down to "Hulking Viking Warrior with steel thews" in whatever particular color and trappings of Chaos they want. Rando cultists and warlocks might be gender neutral conceptually, but the ones who get rewarded (And thus, get to qualify as Characters instead of randos) are the ones who cleave closest to Chaos' favored archetypes, so rando cultists and warlocks in the south don't get any real power from Chaos unless they can be easily pivoted over to what Chaos actually likes. (To wit, the hulking Viking murderbeast)
 
Last edited:
... Question, what happens to the gold upon the death of the Wizard? And does it visibly age as the wizard does?

Because corpses that never decay or fall apart could be very useful, yes.

Mass gilding your whole body is dangerous mainly for like 3 reasons
1) Disfiguring metal burn injuries on a failed ritual cast that ruin your stats/skills or cause instant DEATH
2) Bigots being like "OH FUCK! IT A CHAOS BEAST METAL MAN! KILL IT!!!" and torch and pitchforking you to death in a mob, for being a freaky metal person.
3) Greedy boys murdering you and hacking you to bits to sell your chunks.

You can recover a fairly high percentage of the gold spent in the process by severing the gold bits off a wizard, corpse or otherwise.
 
Last edited:
... Question, what happens to the gold upon the death of the Wizard? And does it visibly age as the wizard does?

Because corpses that never decay or fall apart could be very useful, yes
Somewhere, deep within the Golden college, there's a vault filled with hundreds of golden corpses, and some stupid students daring each other to swim in it.
 
I wonder, is an info-sec risky endeavor to bring a Perpetual Apprentice Historian-specialist into the Coin preservation project? On one hand, the Grand Urbaz and Belegar deciding that there is no debate regarding these defunct accounts is something Mathilde might have to keep secret to protect Belegar's Honor, on the other hand, it might be that a Historian will spot things about the coin collections and their historical value that Mathilde, who isn't a historian specialist would miss, and Mathilde doesn't necessarily have to explain the provenance of the coin samples beyond being old coin samples found in recovered vaults during the reconquest of the Eight Peaks, that Mathilde used her authority as Loremaster to preserve, but an analyst would be useful in telling her what she exactly got on her hands.

Because I do think that part of the reason why things aren't worth the moo, is because Prepetuals have never been seen in action before, and I think the Coins may serve as a good test-case to see when Perpetual Specialists can be very, very helpful, since right now, these are one of the purchase actions that are a mystery to the thread, beyond the use-case of the Tower of Gazul, which was expensive true, and extremely impressive, but we are talking about Lord Magisters here , not Perpetuals.
I'm pretty sure a Grey Perpetual can keep a secret from anyone but their employer and, potentially, the Grey Patriarch or an intermediate handler. And I'm okay with the Grey College knowing about what Belegar is pulling here, as long as they don't leak it to the outside world.

So asking Algard to point us to a trustworthy Perpetual specializing in the cataloguing of secret historical material seems fine to me. As long as Belegar signs off on it I guess.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top