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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Not only is K8P stupidly wealthy in money and resources thanks to the high king its the same for labour. In fact using the boon now for instance on the place of learning means the high king is involved in its construction giving another layer of incluence to the project.

Personally I think a vote to wait amounts to a vote to never use it.
 
Dres said:
@picklepikkl Edited to reflect changes. I also added in the bit about the Repeater because I didn't even consider that beforehand. Not a bad idea at all.
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It was @TotallyNotEvil's and @Horium's, not mine, but yeah, I like it.
SuperSonicSound said:
Personally I think a vote to wait amounts to a vote to never use it.
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Boney specifically said that the difference between the various "not now" votes is "when he brings it up again":
BoneyM said:
They give me an idea when to bring the matter up for a vote again.
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@BoneyM I know that you won't give us any onesided conclusions since voting for stuff based on our own judgement is how this whole game works, but can we anyway get some input on how the We feel about their various options, even if they are all varying forms of neutral?
Deciding on their fate without knowing how they see the situation feels weird and vaguely condescending to me.

To give an example of what I mean, during battle plans we always had various characters suggest various things with Mathilde either having the last word or just happening to be the tie breaker. But here all thoughts about the benefits of each option seem to cone solely from Mathilde's expert deduction and be mostly from the viewpoint of what's good for her king and country or what's practical in general. It reminds me a bit of well meaning colonialists, which definitely fits the time period and is beneficial for Mathilde's various mission statements, but is still something I would find cool to have Mathilde's personality steer away from.
 
[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.

[X] [ROOM] Armory
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar
[X] [ROOM] Provision Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
 
Andres110 said:
What does "have a go at it" mean? What's the grandmaster gonna do?
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I believe it is to hire a grandmaster to have a look at the design and performance of the gun and see if they can think of any improvements to it. Sort of like when we hired a dwarf to design the Niter Factory. As for what sort of improvements who knows. Maybe they will find a way to make it more reliable and lower maintenance. Or perhaps they will find a way to increase its accuracy or firepower even more. Or they may just say that it is a realy good gun and they cannot add anything without giving out guild secrets, which by itself would be good advertising I suppose.
 
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Rafin said:
@BoneyM I know that you won't give us any onesided conclusions since voting for stuff based on our own judgement is how this whole game works, but can we anyway get some input on how the We feel about their various options, even if they are all varying forms of neutral?
Deciding on their fate without knowing how they see the situation feels weird and vaguely condescending to me.

To give an example of what I mean, during battle plans we always had various characters suggest various things with Mathilde either having the last word or just happening to be the tie breaker. But here all thoughts about the benefits of each option seem to cone solely from Mathilde's expert deduction and be mostly from the viewpoint of what's good for her king and country or what's practical in general. It reminds me a bit of well meaning colonialists, which definitely fits the time period and is beneficial for Mathilde's various mission statements, but is still something I would find cool to have Mathilde's personality steer away from.
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The We are facing a no-food. The only method they know of to solve that is to migrate. They don't want to do that as it would mean leaving the Karak-We. Mathilde has solutions to this, and the discussion she has had with them has made it clear that all of them are acceptable to the We, but they don't really have opinions beyond that because all of them are completely outside what they know. They are asking Mathilde as someone they trust to tell them what she believes is the best solution for them, because she understands the world of the Karak-We better than they do. Having them put the decision on hold until their education catches up is not an option.
 
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet


[X] [ROOM] Vault

[X] [ROOM] Explosives Laboratory

[X] [ROOM] Provision Room

[X] [ROOM] Trophy Room

[X] [ROOM] Guest Room


[X] [DWARF] No purchase.

The repeater rifle came to be with what was maybe not the most kosher type of secret transfer between Dwarves and Humans.

[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.

I don't think anyone has actually voted for a mundane purchase, but any such vote shouldn't be allowed to win if not at least two people agree on the same thing IMO.

Edit:

[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
 
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[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.

[X] [ROOM] Armory
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Training Hall
[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar
[X] [ROOM] Provision Room
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
 
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet
[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...
[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [DWARF] Have a Grandmaster Engineer have a go at the Stirland Repeater - 8 favors
 
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@picklepikkl A lot of this seems reasonable. But!

[X] [WE] Hunt the Mountains
[X] [WE] Hunt the Badlands

[X] [BOON] Save it until the Karak is wealthy enough to afford my ambition.
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.

[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar

[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books

[] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet

But! The dwarves have looked at the We as primarily a military ally.

If you do this, the We stop contributing to the Karak's defense, and turn into someone that has an endless debt to the dwarves. They go from independent, mostly, to totally dependent crafters and traders. This is great for exploting them and turning them into non-combatants, but less so for the We's ability to protect themselves and keep their hunting skills sharp, as well as keep in the dwarves good graces.

Remember, on a fundamental level, the dwarves don't need wealth. They don't need silk. They need bodies. They need fighters. The dwarves are already fabulously wealthy.

The Gauntlet would turn the We from an independent colony and part of the Karak that helps protect it, to civilians that make web and pay in silk for their protections, while humans and dwarves bleed. That's the problem, especially with a giant spider nest. They will grow. They will breed. They need to be a part of the defenses, not only to keep shedding joined blood to keep buying real connection and prestige with the dwarves, but to keep their own numbers in check.

The mountains will serve as scouts and take some attrition just from hunting dangerous stuff. The badlands would do the same, with less hunting, less silk, but more spilling of joined blood to protect the Karak.

I think the best option is those two, and letting the We trade silk for extra food they need to keeping hunting the badlands or patrolling the mountains and protecting the Karak. The We are perfect from that point of view. Like, if you tell them to hunt the mountains, you might get dwarven ranger spider-cavalry. Or at least the beginings of one. Or We saving rangers lives, both in the mountains or in the Badlands.

And that kind of bond will always be more stable and more valued, this joint shedding of blood to aid one another against mutual enemies, then any amount of gold and silk.

And it will keep the We in contact with the outside world, able to learn for themselves what goes on outside, instead of making them a permanent vassal state to the dwarves as civilian web-weavers.

I don't mind, and I don't think anyone does, if later, when they can think in multiple ways, we diversify. But the main way they contribute should include the basis of the alliance: The joint shedding of blood.

So that all the men and dwarves that are coming and are born in the coming years, see it as well. Remember, it's only once they started hunting skaven that the dwarves started seeing them as something more than monsters, and that's only the dwarves that live here. At some point, Belegar will need to sell the idea of Giant Spiders to the rest of dwarven kind. The news will get out.

It will be for the best if he can then point right at the spiders that hunt and fight and die against the same foes that beset his Kingdom. That is an argument that can not be debunked.

So @picklepikkl don't turn the We into a silk-farm gold-mill. It's patronizing to them and their survival and hunting skills, delitirious to future relations and the relations with new settlers and the rest of the dwarven and human nations (they have monsters in their home?!!! / Our monsters hunt Greenskins and Skaven!).

The We should grow. Not be confined and pidgeonholed to one role, just because it's the best role for them for the rest of this one Karak. It's not the best role for them or for the Karak in the long term.
 
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@BoneyM Okay. So long as there is an understanding that the We may try to alter the deal once they know more or if they notice major problems then all my concerns are assuaged.
 
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet
[X] [BOON] Save it as a trump card to exploit an opportunity or address an emergency.
[X] [ROOM] Vault
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Trophy Room
 
[X] [WE] Scavenge the Gauntlet
[X] [BOON] I know just what to spend it on...

[X] [ROOM] Shrine to Ranald
[X] [ROOM] Guest Room
[X] [ROOM] Wolf's Room
[X] [ROOM] Gyrocopter Hangar

[X] [COLLEGE] 5 favors for a full translation of the Cathayan books
[X] [LIBRARY] Linguistics (Dwarf Antiquarian), The Eonir of Laurelorn (Imperial Extensive & Esoteric, Dwarf Extensive), Waystones (Imperial Extensive, Dwarf Extensive)
 
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primemountain said:
But! The dwarves have looked at the We as primarily a military ally.

If you do this, the We stop contributing to the Karak's defense, and turn into someone that has an endless debt to the dwarves. They go from independent, mostly, to totally dependent crafters and traders. This is great for exploting them and turning them into non-combatants, but less so for the We's ability to protect themselves and keep their hunting skills sharp, as well as keep in the dwarves good graces.

Remember, on a fundamental level, the dwarves don't need wealth. They don't need silk. They need bodies. They need fighters. The dwarves are already fabulously wealthy.

The Gauntlet would turn the We from an independent colony and part of the Karak that helps protect it, to civilians that make web and pay in silk for their protections, while humans and dwarves bleed. That's the problem, especially with a giant spider nest. They will grow. They will breed. They need to be a part of the defenses, not only to keep shedding joined blood to keep buying real connection and prestige with the dwarves, but to keep their own numbers in check.

The mountains will serve as scouts and take some attrition just from hunting dangerous stuff. The badlands would do the same, with less hunting, less silk, but more spilling of joined blood to protect the Karak.

I think the best option is those two, and letting the We trade silk for extra food they need to keeping hunting the badlands or patrolling the mountains and protecting the Karak. The We are perfect from that point of view. Like, if you tell them to hunt the mountains, you might get dwarven ranger spider-cavalry. Or at least the beginings of one. Or We saving rangers lives, both in the mountains or in the Badlands.

And that kind of bond will always be more stable and more valued, this joint shedding of blood to aid one another against mutual enemies, then any amount of gold and silk.

And it will keep the We in contact with the outside world, able to learn for themselves what goes on outside, instead of making them a permanent vassal state to the dwarves as civilian web-weavers.

I don't mind, and I don't think anyone does, if later, when they can think in multiple ways, we diversify. But the main way they contribute should include the basis of the alliance: The joint shedding of blood.

So that all the men and dwarves that are coming and are born in the coming years, see it as well. Remember, it's only once they started hunting skaven that the dwarves started seeing them as something more than monsters, and that's only the dwarves that live here. At some point, Belegar will need to sell the idea of Giant Spiders to the rest of dwarven kind. The news will get out.

It will be for the best if he can then point right at the spiders that hunt and fight and die against the same foes that beset his Kingdom. That is an argument that can not be debunked.

So @picklepikkl don't turn the We into a silk-farm gold-mill. It's patronizing to them and their survival and hunting skills, delitirious to future relations and the relations with new settlers and the rest of the dwarven and human nations (they have monsters in their home?!!! / Our monsters hunt Greenskins and Skaven!).

The We should grow. Not be confined and pidgeonholed to one role, just because it's the best role for them for the rest of this one Karak. It's not the best role for them or for the Karak in the long term.
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I'm not sure why you were tagging me -- I've mostly been commenting on the Library vote and haven't really posted much about the We issue -- but you make a good point that a role where the We don't really contribute in a material way may not help with their integration. I will drop my vote for Scavenge the Gauntlet and just vote for hunting in the mountains.
 
vsh said:
Back of a napkin calculations tell me that's roughly equivalent to a modern day's relative value of livestock vs raw silk.
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That's is modern silk though. Not silk whose only currently known source is across a massive region known for killing almost everything that makes the mistake of wandering in.
 
@primemountain I disagree with you on your characterization of the Scavenge the Gauntlet vote. Yes, it doesn't have the We give any substantial military contribution yet, but no, it doesn't pigeonhole them into civilian craftsmen either. It is essentially the middle of the two.
To explain: The We eat life prey. Which in this case would mean life greenskin. So in the Gauntlet they would still at the very least be additional foot soldiers. Though they would be inexperienced foot soldiers in an area where their contribution isn't actually needed. Recruits on training grounds in other words. They would still have to personally fight easy prey greenskin and they would do so in the vicinity, and maybe even alongside, the other forces there. Very similar to how we treated the Ducklings in their first few skirmishes which we specifically scouted out for them.

So it definitely doesn't play towards their current talents and costs them some independence, but if you want to ever integrate them into the army this might even be the best option. At the same time it maximizes their current food intake among all the options that aren't purely civilian craftsman based.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I quite like the Hunt the Mountains vote as well. I just believe that the one I'm advocating for is the best one to grow the We short term without atrophying their Hunter caste. And if the We work like I think they do then increasing their numbers either makes them noticeably more intelligent, or makes them split into additional individual We-minds. Either is great overall, because one makes them learn faster, thus leading to them making their own informed choices, while the other means that various We hives could choose different options among the ones presented.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Not only is K8P stupidly wealthy in money and resources thanks to the high king its the same for labour. In fact using the boon now for instance on the place of learning means the high king is involved in its construction giving another layer of incluence to the project.

Personally I think a vote to wait amounts to a vote to never use it.
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The issue really is, at what time does the Karak become wealthy enough to afford the Boon? Presumably, this is up to the QM's Judgement, and I have faith that BoneyM is monitoring the thread and has his own judgments about how expensive the Boons under discussion are relative to the actual Economic situation of the Karak.

So yes, I don't think that voting to wait for the Karak's economic situation to improve means the boon will never be used per-se, merely that it would be delayed until the QM is convinced sufficiently that the cost is not an issue for any reasonable , sufficiently transcendental and serious Boon proposal on that table.

The trickiness of the problem though is two-fold:

1. Boons that are not one-off purchase items, but rather Karak-defining Mega-projects (which extends beyond Mathilde's lifetime) are likely dependant on how fast one wishes to take the Mega-project. Case in point, a slow expansion of a Great Library of one extensive topical-collection added per turn (300GC) is far more affordable than a rapid expansion on the magnitude of our book buying blitz after the Karak Eight Peaks Expedition.

2. The calculus for affordability a one-off item expenditures (say a Dreadnought) versus something embedded within the institution/basic constitution of the Eight Peaks such as a Sanctum for the College in the event of another Dieter IV, versus something accumulative by nature such as a Great Library/Research Institution are all going to look very different.


Remember, a Great Boon can go to the level of rewriting the fundamental institutional structures and policy goals of the Eight Peaks permanently, in so far this is compatible with the security and survival of the Karak. It's a literally "you won me back my Karak, so you may now define a fundamental non-survival based policy agenda of the reborn Karak permanently". Sanctum for the Colleges is one example of this level Boons - one with no obvious immediate downpayment cost (because it probably isn't going to happen during the reign of this or the next Emperor), but with a potential future cost, which requires a fundamental alteration to how a normal Dwarven Karak normally works politically and socially ever since the War of Vengeance.

Let that sink in, we can literally propose and pass the equivalent of a Constitutional Amendment to the unwritten Constitution of the Karak Eight Peaks and etch it in stone.
 
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