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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Asheram said:
Some credit should be given to her parents in that this is a world of magic with a culture somewhere around... 12'th century Europe (with a lot of anachronisms). Superstitions around Trolls, Fay, Changelings, Demons, and so forth, lived on well into the 19'th century in the real world, and theirs is a world of literal magic. There's a lot of different ways her parents could have rationalized away that she wasn't their daughter anymore, or possibly that she never was their daughter.
They likely loved her up to that point, and likely grieved over her, but once she showed magic she was a threat.
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Huh, that changeling mention is a good point actually. From the parents POV, it might not have been that they stood aside to let their daughter be burned, but rather that their daughter was some time in the past, perhaps mere days or perhaps years ago, either possessed or swapped out with some demon that doubtlessly killed their real daughter, and the only reason they didn't help build the pyre is because they couldn't bare to do so with the monster still wearing their daughters face.

Those sorts of myths I can definitely see becoming a thing as a sort of coping mechanism for families who have had to go through with this. Of course you didn't kill your daughter, your daughter was already dead, killed by the thing you burned. It was righteous justice and vengeance for your daughter! And so the idea and myth propagates, so much more comforting than the truth for those grieving families, until it's a centuries old, full blown cultural myth.

It's dark enough I can see it fitting with canon to be honest.
 
Omegahugger said:
A hundred years ago black kids weren't allowed to go to school with white kids in the U.S., and I feel very comfortably judging anyone who still thinks that was justified as not being good folks.
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I think this is comparing apples and oranges, as one is built around baseless accusations and the other on sheer raw fear that we know is justified because we are a Mage and saw some shit. But i don' t personally see her family in good light either anyway. I can just grok why they did what they did, considering the religious fanaticism of the Empire, only relatively recently there being a place where mages can actually learn stuff and centuries of folk wisdom saying that magic bad because that way lies Chaos.
 
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FallenPears said:
And so the idea and myth propagates, so much more comforting than the truth for those grieving families, until it's a centuries old, full blown cultural myth.
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pucflek said:
I think this is comparing apples and oranges, as one is built around baseless accusations
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And here we ironically see one of those cultural myths propagating and exaggerating itself in modern times, as an insufficient or exaggerated basis morphs into being supposedly entirely baseless.
 
Omegahugger said:
A hundred years ago black kids weren't allowed to go to school with white kids in the U.S., and I feel very comfortably judging anyone who still thinks that was justified as not being good folks.

Even if we ignore the fact that burning children is wrong, regardless of whether or not they're yours, it is still a dumb practice that heightens the risk for everybody.

If showing magic leads directly to your death, you'll try to hide it and not get the education neccesary to not accidentally blow up their aunt.
If someone won't be accepted no matter what they do, they are easily recruitable be cults and similar very nasty and actually dangerous groups.
If all magic is equally bad and dangerous, then why not reach for the forbidden yet powerful Dhar? It's not like they can doublekill you for it.
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Asheram said:
Some credit should be given to her parents in that this is a world of magic with a culture somewhere around... 12'th century Europe (with a lot of anachronisms). Superstitions around Trolls, Fay, Changelings, Demons, and so forth, lived on well into the 19'th century in the real world, and theirs is a world of literal magic. There's a lot of different ways her parents could have rationalized away that she wasn't their daughter anymore, or possibly that she never was their daughter.
They likely loved her up to that point, and likely grieved over her, but once she showed magic she was a threat.
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FallenPears said:
Huh, that changeling mention is a good point actually. From the parents POV, it might not have been that they stood aside to let their daughter be burned, but rather that their daughter was some time in the past, perhaps mere days or perhaps years ago, either possessed or swapped out with some demon that doubtlessly killed their real daughter, and the only reason they didn't help build the pyre is because they couldn't bare to do so with the monster still wearing their daughters face.

Those sorts of myths I can definitely see becoming a thing as a sort of coping mechanism for families who have had to go through with this. Of course you didn't kill your daughter, your daughter was already dead, killed by the thing you burned. It was righteous justice and vengeance for your daughter! And so the idea and myth propagates, so much more comforting than the truth for those grieving families, until it's a centuries old, full blown cultural myth.

It's dark enough I can see it fitting with canon to be honest.
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There are numerous examples in Canon of families hiding and helping their children when they discover them to be mages, or even worse, mutants, because despite all the fear, superstition, and religious fanaticism they were still their children and they loved them as such...

So I have literally ZERO reasons to have even the smallest bit of sympathy towards Mathilde´s parents... They should have at least tried to defend their daughter and they didn´t, so they can just eat shit and die for all I care...
 
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Do keep in mind that the primary religion of the land dislikes magic to the extent it has blessings for Fuck Magic. Ultimately, parental reactions span the gamut, you can see from all those mutant children abandoned in the forests to join Beastmen tribes instead of sending them to die? Well thats the same phenomenon as magic kids.

The easiest course of action for the parents, is to just not act on it. Do not send them to the pyre, but do not fight it when it happens.

More kindly parents might give the kid an axe, knife, cloak and bedroll then claim they ran off in the night. Thats how you get young budding necromancers and hedge witches of the magical talents, and how you get beastmen of the mutants.

More law abiding parents would send them off to the authorities, and what tends to happen THEN is execution by pyre.

Most parents can't do either, they can't fight the village over it, they wouldn't lay hands on their own child.
So they do nothing and curse the world
 
veekie said:
More law abiding parents would send them off to the authorities, and what tends to happen THEN is execution by pyre.
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Man, this is not WH40K, unlike psykers if a child is discovered to have magic by the Empire´s authorities they don´t kill him by default, once they are confirmed to not be corrupted by chaos they simply send them to the Colleges...

As Boney has said numerous times Witch Hunters are NOT the Inquisition
 
Fanhunter696 said:
Man, this is not WH40K, unlike psykers if a child is discovered to have magic by the Empire´s authorities they don´t kill him by default, once they are confirmed to not be corrupted by chaos they simply send them to the Colleges...

As Boney has said numerous times Witch Hunters are NOT the Inquisition
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That typically varies from witch hunter to witch hunter in canon. Like, sometimes they won't kill them, but sometimes they will. And it depends entirely on the personality and prejudices of the person making the call.
 
Fanhunter696 said:
Man, this is not WH40K, unlike psykers if a child is discovered to have magic by the Empire´s authorities they don´t kill him by default, once they are confirmed to not be corrupted by chaos they simply send them to the Colleges...
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Only for the past 100 or so years, as established by Magnus the Pious after Great War against Chaos. Before that, all wizards were burned. You could see how rural areas with little connection to the more cosmopolitan parts of Empire would still hold to the old ways.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
Man, this is not WH40K, unlike psykers if a child is discovered to have magic by the Empire´s authorities they don´t kill him by default, once they are confirmed to not be corrupted by chaos they simply send them to the Colleges...

As Boney has said numerous times Witch Hunters are NOT the Inquisition
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In Mathilde's backstory she was handed over to the legitimate local authority, the headman, who was all ready to burn her anyways.
Remember feudal. The people implementing the laws have a lot of leeway, basically no oversight, and are not all that educated. Witch Hunters are supposed to work with the Colleges on this, but in the far flung hinterlands of the Empire nobody knows whats going on, and most of the time the person making the call had only their grandmothers' tales to go on.
 
Omegahugger said:
If all magic is equally bad and dangerous, then why not reach for the forbidden yet powerful Dhar? It's not like they can doublekill you for it.
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Given Mathilde managed to collaborate up a weapon that burns souls they probably could doublekill someone if sufficiently motivated.

Plus there are some Dhar users who have been killed many times. Self-resurrection is extremely convenient it doesn't make being killed any less unpleasant. Note that Mathilde is in no rush to experience temporary death despite the Seed meaning she will get back up.
 
chocolote12 said:
Technically it burns the connection between body and soul, not the soul itself. Gazul could probably do the latter, but in most cases it doesn't really sound necessary.
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Random thought, could we clear a case of possession by that method in case we find a safe way to manage the subject?
 
Asheram said:
Random thought, could we clear a case of possession by that method in case we find a safe way to manage the subject?
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I'm not sure what the distinction would be, seeing as how the body gets dusted either way. If you set a chair on fire there won't be anybody sitting in it, but I don't see how it would help you figure out the identity of something that had been.
 
Exmorri said:
And here we ironically see one of those cultural myths propagating and exaggerating itself in modern times, as an insufficient or exaggerated basis morphs into being supposedly entirely baseless.
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...would you like to elaborate, for the record, on how you think school segregation wasn't entirely without legitimate basis?

Like, that's certainly one hell of a take.
 
veekie said:
In Mathilde's backstory she was handed over to the legitimate local authority, the headman, who was all ready to burn her anyways.
Remember feudal. The people implementing the laws have a lot of leeway, basically no oversight, and are not all that educated. Witch Hunters are supposed to work with the Colleges on this, but in the far flung hinterlands of the Empire nobody knows whats going on, and most of the time the person making the call had only their grandmothers' tales to go on.
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You need to reread that bit. What happened was that the villagers were getting ready to burn Mathilde when the village lawman stepped in and saved her. Her parents appear to have been of the opinion that she was dead to them.
 
This discussion about how the Empire has a culture of fear and superstition around magic, and how myths and fairy tales are used by the families to simultaneously cope and justify killing their kids/siblings, has reminded me of a poem I read a few months ago.
And while certain aspects of the setting make it a little less metaphorical, I think that the general message of "forcing someone to become the monster" still applies to magic users in the setting.

It would apply to mutants too if Games Workshop didn't make them all slaves to Chaos. (Which is the weaker storytelling option in my opinion, and possibly another case of Chaos being their favorite faction)
 
13th Fleet said:
You need to reread that bit. What happened was that the villagers were getting ready to burn Mathilde when the village lawman stepped in and saved her. Her parents appear to have been of the opinion that she was dead to them.
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Not so. Veekie is saying that the uh. Mayor, or Headman, because calling someone from village so tiny Mayor is just hilarious, was the one that led her to the pyre. He was technically the authority of the village. You are probably correct that the lawman was the actual imperial authority there, as i doubt Imperial bureaucracy names village leaders thought.
 
pucflek said:
Not so. Veekie is saying that the uh. Mayor, or Headman, because calling someone from village so tiny Mayor is just hilarious, was the one that led her to the pyre. He was technically the authority of the village. You are probably correct that the lawman was the actual imperial authority there, as i doubt Imperial bureaucracy names village leaders thought.
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the text clearly described the lawman as the only man that served as law enforcement.
Headman was likely the unofficial village leader.

the lawman also sounds like a veteran to me in the text.
 
LightLan said:
the text clearly described the lawman as the only man that served as law enforcement.
Headman was likely the unofficial village leader.

the lawman also sounds like a veteran to me in the text.
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I pretty sure the headman is the official leader of the village in every way that counts, whether or not he was appointed externally or chosen by the village in some manner. Each time Mathilde went to a village for official business, she talked to the headman as as the official business person. And at it's core, being considered the official business person is what makes someone an official business person.
 
To change the subject, let's talk about something different. I don't think this topic has been discussed but what is going to be our stance when it comes to Wood Elves?
BoneyM said:
Karak Norn's gates, unlike most Dwarfholds, are not found at the base of a mountain, but instead atop a massive forested plateau, upon which the last known Wutroth grove can be found. Where other Dwarves see wood as only useful for ornamentation or fuel, Karak Norn's Carpenters Guild are unquestionably the masters of creating wooden weapons, including bolt throwers, grudge throwers, and crossbows. They keep a wary eye on the Elves of Athel Loren, and not just out of caution, for they regularly carry out raids into the infamous forests to harvest the rarest, strongest and most valuable of woods from it. They spend a great deal of the profits on importing siege weapons from the rest of Karaz Ankor, quite sure that one day, Athel Loren will seek revenge.
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Judging by this, we are going to come into contact with them at some point in the future whether it be intentionally or the situation at Karak Norn goes badly. If they don't shoot us on sight for being the representative of a dwarven king, I can see them being treating us with barely contained disdain and little respect. That is unless we kill some noticeable Beastmen with the coin set on The Protector.

Another problem is Ariel. Because we can recognise Dhar when we see it, we might accidentally see the Dhar corruption in her soul. If/When Ariel realizes that and decides that we need to die, that will be pretty much all she wrote. Unless we become friends with the Everqueen and get her to heal Ariel of her corruption.

What do you guys think?
 
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