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I think its time Mathilde had an Asur Adventure, because the empire and dwarves got their one yeah.

I haven't seen much opposition against the Asur Adventure, but the current mood of the thread seems to be that Mathilde should make very thorough preparations (Redshirt Army made a comprehensive list of those preparations) before taking on this one-off journey, because it literally is our only chance to secure a longer-term right to study in Ulthuan.

As for me, I'd like to add that the Druchi are probably fights as potentially hairy as fighting Clan Eshin. Let's not wade into the Asur Adventure underprepared, thank you very much.
 
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Its understood that the runes being 'invented' are merely new applications/combinations of the foundational runes handed down by the ancestor gods.
Which would mean that said Rune of Ranald, aka Rune of the Unknown for non-weapons, would still be on the cards.

Every new invention in electronics is merely a new application/combination of the foundational laws of physics. That doesn't make them not inventions.
 
Already have it as a work in progress, a Boon is wasted.

I heavily disagree. A single handgun factory in Blutdorf, with questionable amount of insight that Anton (a non-engineer) obtained from Gotri in a single sitting, can't possibly compare with the results of a big targeted investment of materials, know-how and personel that Belegar's Boon would involve.
 
Moreover, trying to make a bolt hole for all wizards has enormous issues. Namely that it's useless unless wizards know about it, and that means the Empire is liable to know and isn't going to be fond of us investing in placing an Imperial institution beyond its remit. It is at the very minimum a collosal can of worms for the sake of making an implicit understanding explicit.
Well the Cult of Sigmar won't like it but. You know... That's a positive. :V

More seriously The Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels is still in living memory so I suspect that the Colleges responce to outcry in the empire against them taking precautions that it couldn't happen again would be the same as it was when Dieter tried to shut them down, "come and have a go if you think your hard enough".
 
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Moreover, trying to make a bolt hole for all wizards has enormous issues. Namely that it's useless unless wizards know about it, and that means the Empire is liable to know and isn't going to be fond of us investing in placing an Imperial institution beyond its remit. It is at the very minimum a collosal can of worms for the sake of making an implicit understanding explicit.

Objection, facts not in evidence.

As with most Imperial institutions, I am confident that the Colleges have a great many secrets that they have decided the Empire as a whole does not need to know. This would be one more.
 
Like the Wheel, an Age Turns
Like the Wheel, an Age Turns

Ubrigon Hammerbrace sat amongst the broken and ill repaired crenelations of the Western Gate, looking out towards the Badlands and the darkness there. It struck his core with disgust that the work of his ancestors had been broken and trodden upon and replaced with these haphazard Greenskin… works, but there was no time right now to replace and refurbish. The last push of Waaagh Birdmuncha had been hours ago, but there was still Da Howlaz and their wolfs who might want to try and have a go against weakened Dwarven fortifications. And only fools didn't keep an eye out for an enemy they knew was prowling out there, and King Belegar Ironhammer and Clan Angrund were no fools.

Mere hours ago he was in the dimly lit caves of the Under-Caldera, straining his senses to hear any sound of pick or shovel on rock, ensuring that no Greenskin made it through into the maze of caves that composed of the Trench. They had just scoured one enemy from those sacred tunnels, and it had been his duty to ensure that no other enemy established a beachhead. A slight sense of burning indignation heated his heart as he thought of the Battle at the Western Gate. Karak Azul's throng gathered glory like a brewmaster would pour beer at a wedding that evening, drowning everyone involved in the heady intoxication of victory. Ubrigon Hammerbrace pushed aside the indignation with a small smile and thought. It was good for those who stood by Karak-Eight-Peaks to reap some measure of glory, for King Belegar Ironhammer and Clan Angrund held the greater jewel. Karak-Eight-Peaks, the greatest of the holds to fall in the time of woes was now reclaimed by Dwarven audacity, artifice, and allies. For millennia Clan Angrund had planned, prepared, and promised to retake Karak-Eight-Peaks. Prospecting the depths of their resources, the stoutness of their allies, and the dangers of their ambition, and when the time was ripe, it was King Belegar Ironhammer who had finally sounded the horn of war.

For just over 300 years he had worked and served the Ironhammers. For just over 300 years he had roiled with indignation as Clan Angrund had worked and scraped together the resources to conduct this expedition. For just over 300 years he had dreamt of walking down the halls his ancestors had walked, seeing the works his ancestors had built, and reclaiming the foundations his ancestors had laid. For just over 300 years he had trained and bled to be ready for this moment. Every moment of his long life had been in preparation for this moment of time when Clan Angrund once again could walk amongst the halls of Karak-Eight-Peaks.

Looking out amongst the other watchers, Ubrigon Hammerbrace turned around and faced Karag Nar in the east. His eyes panned over the great bonfires blazing amongst Caldera, providing light to search for the stragglers of the destroyed Waaagh Birdmuncha. He saw the Eye of Gazul standing imperiously above Karag Nar, promising utter devastation against any who marched against his home. He saw the Citadel where just days before he had been stationed and where the limits of King Belegar's reach ended. He reached down and patted some of the Dwarven stone underneath him which had refused to give way to the Greenskins over the long millennia occupation of Karak-Eight-Peaks. In his mind's eye, he saw the tunnels of his ancestors flowing with Dwarfs ensuring that no enemy remained, and he saw Longbeards more ancient than even he grumble and debate just how many grudges had been wiped clean this day.

And as he looked out past Karag Nar, he saw the stars in the Eastern sky dim and disappear as a new light crept onto the horizon. With each star that dimmed and disappeared he imagined another grudge was struck out, and as the dawn approached he could feel tears begin to seep into his beard. The long, cold, hard night was over and a new day had crested the horizon. And he could not help but wish that this day would never end. Slowly Ubrigon Hammerbrace opened a hidden pouch beneath his beard and armor, right over his heart, and pulled out a small silver flask. Looking over Karak-Eight-Peaks again, he pondered if now was the time. There was still trolls to be cleared out of Kvyin-Wyr and the Dragon in Karag Zilfin, work still needed to be done in Karag Rhyn to ensure that everything was cleared from that mountain. Under-Karagril still needed to be guarded against aggression through the underway, and the Western Gate still needed to be fully refurbished.

But even still, he felt it in his bones. The feeling of a Waaagh broken on the peaks of mountains, of good ale poured in commemoration of a child's birth, of a new vein of gromril discovered. The feeling of a Karak reclaimed. The feeling of a new age. With a slight 'pop' the cork of the flask is undone, and the Bugman's XXXXX flowed down his throat. Even though it was barely enough to wet his throat, and was warm, it was still the best drink Ubrigon Hammerbrace could ever remember having.

Turning around with bleary eyes to again survey the Badlands to the West, he felt dawn's warmth on his back. He still had a duty to uphold, in his twilight years, and whether it be by blade or age, he vowed that he would die where his ancestors lived. In Karak-Eight-Peaks. In a better age.
 
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Well the Cult of Sigmar won't like it but. You know... That's a positive. :V

More seriously The Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels is still in living memory so I suspect that the Colleges responce to outcry in the empire against them taking precautions that it couldn't happen again would be that same as it was when Dieter tried to shut them down, "come and have a go if you think your hard enough".
I do think the point of "how do you make this public without it being obvious that Mathilde prioritizes the good of wizardkind when it clashes with the political leadership of the Empire" is a valid one, but I think the way to square that particular circle is that Karak Eight Peaks doesn't say the quiet part out loud: just "thanks to Thane Weber's work, K8P is always open to any wizard willing to follow our laws on magic use"... and then if a crisis ever strikes, then it can become clear that "always" includes "while the Empire is hostile to wizards."
 
A place of refuge from the Empire could however be felt (by Mathilde or anyone else who knows) as placing her Imperial and her Collegiate loyalties in conflict.

And yes, quest name and all, but I'm not sure willingly further eroding Imperial loyalties (already under pressure from Belegar loyalties) is my preferred play here.
 
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In regards to the favor, I lean towards something that would provide a long-term benefit to the forces of Order (or at the Empire).

I figure there's three areas that mankind/the Empire could seriously use as a boost to its ability to survive: the ability to make and maintain new steam tanks, Dwarven-quality gunpowder, or Dwarven-quality firearms.
- Steam Tanks: The steam tank discussion caught my attention, but tanks are complex vehicles requiring a lot industrial knowledge, production of mass-produced parts, etc to make and maintain. Sure, we could ask the Dwarves to reverse-engineer and then hand over schematics and parts to reproduce, but understanding WHY those parts were engineered the way they were would still be an educational understanding the Empire doesn't have.
- Dwarven gunpowder: This would probably be the easiest to do, due to knowing the proper proportions (unless the Dwarves add something special to the mix). However, it would also be VERY easy for non-Imperials to learn the same recipe and use it for malevolent ends.
- Dwarven firearms: Possible, bc Dwarves would still be the only manufacturers of runed firearms thus still having an edge with guns, but I imagine there would be considerable political friction with this one, as many Dwarves would be hesitant to uparm humans more than they already have.

However, there's a huge problem with all of the above, namely the EMpire's ability to actually use any of those weapons systems to their logical end, and that boils down to: insufficient industry. In addition, the Empire is hilariously fragmented in terms of actual industrial capacity and education. There basically is no mass educational system, nor standardized tools and measurement systems in use consistently across all territories, at least as far as I know. So the actual ability for the Empire to more rapidly industrialize doesn't exist.

So, an action at least starting the process of reversing this would be a good one possibly. Dwarves providing basic educators to the Elector provinces and the Emperor, to found schools to teach and spread basic Dwarven scientific and industrial knowledge and the standardized tools to work with, would provide a MUCH better foundation for advancement than the schizo tech that WHF has going now, barring a few geniuses like Leonardo da Miragliano. Then mankind could advance quicker on its own, and with more reliable means.


Possible Future Projects We Could Use Our Favor to Ask Dwarves to Work On:

- Steam Tank Mark 2, Dwarf Edition: the funny thing is, Belegar would not be averse to us wanting to have a team of Dwarven engineers reverse engineer steam tanks, as he thinks very highly of us and we have a buttload of Dwarven Favor. I'd say we push for steam tank knowledge/schematics using our Favors. And they don't have to be Dwarven quality, so the Dwarves would still have an edge on humans in that sense and can have their own RUNED Steam Tank designs.
- Runed Cannons: This sounds like they could be potentially be very powerful. @BoneyM , do Dwarves use runed cannons? I don't think they do, just curious. Maybe that's something we can push Kragg to develop bc we have an in with him now. EDIT: Already exists, thanks @Doomed Wombat !

- Dwarf Cannon Design, Gen-2: refining the base design of cannons, creating more types of cannon for uses in the field or in siege fortifications, etc? IDK, but pushing for some form of Dwarven weapons development seems like a good idea.
-- Naval Cannons (Ironclad) Gen-2: Specifically pushing the performance envelope of Dwarven Cannons on their Ironclads. This would allow for noticeably increasing the combat power of Dwarf Ironclads (which is already extreme), but also reducing logistics/maintenance, extending range, etc. And that's without runes, this is just the base design.
-- Naval Cannons (Non-Ironclads) Gen-2: Basically, this is creating better cannons that can be used on non-Ironclad, wooden warships, like the Empire and Brettonia still use. This will help enhance the offensive power of human navies, which there are more of than Dwarves, and it will go far to indirectly helping Dwarves bc of it. I supposed Runed variants could be offered at high prices by Dwarves to humans, but Runes should be a Dwarven-only thing.
-- Siege Cannons, Gen-2: Pushing siege cannon design is a good idea bc it would benefit the Empire and Dwarves immensely. This would allow for noticeably increasing combat power, but also reducing logistics/maintenance, extending range, etc. And that's without runes, this is just the base design. Dwarves don't normally build large cannon designs from what I've read, so pushing this development would help everybody bc it would fill in a critical gap in knowledge.
-- Field Cannons, Gen-2: Smaller, more mobile, lighter cannons that can be rapidly deployed on battlefields. The Dwarves normally build smaller cannons so probably starting from those designs, but this would allow for noticeably increasing combat power, but also reducing logistics/maintenance, extending range, etc. And that's without runes, this is just the base design.

- Non-Rifle Fouling Gunpowder: ie, Guncotton. We know OOC its possible, and the Dwarves are in the best position to push this development. Then every firearm could be a rifle, thus radically extending range and performance.
- Human Gyrocopters: Again, developing a slightly simpler version that is slightly enlarged so humans can use them. At minimum huge for aerial reconnaissance or delivering fast messages, at max great for combat. And they don't have to be Dwarven quality, so the Dwarves would still have an edge on humans in that sense.
- Human Ironclads: A simpler ironclad design with less Dwarf bits, modified for human use. This could allow Imperial fleets to have substantial naval performance increases without having to have Dwarves around to keep them going. Would have to include the education and standardized tools needed to build and maintain these, of course. And they don't have to be Dwarven quality, so the Dwarves would still have an edge on humans in that sense.
- Steam Tech - Basics: Humans need steam power, and Dwarves are the masters of that right now in WHF. So, they need to teach the basics to humans to insure humanity's steam tech can hold its own and malfunctions less often.
- Steam Tech, Gen-2: Basically asking the Dwarves to work on perfecting and miniaturizing steam tech, for Dwarves at minimum, and possibly for sale to trusted outside parties if it goes well. The Dwarves could certainly use a push to refine and expand on this branch of the tech tree.
 
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A place of refuge from the Empire could however be felt (by Mathilde or anyone else who knows) as placing her Imperial and her Collegiate loyalties in conflict.

And yes, quest name and all, but I'm not sure willingly further eroding Imperial loyalties (already under pressure from Belegar loyalties) is my preferred play here.

If the Empire starts burning them at the stake again, they're already going to be in conflict. A short lived one, since I doubt we'd walk willingly to our execution. And if that's not the case, then there's no reason for K8P opening its halls to Wizards to be a conflict of loyalties, any more than the what-if of Ranald vs Empire.
 
In regards to the favor, I lean towards something that would provide a long-term benefit to the forces of Order (or at the Empire).

The steam tank discussion caught my attention, but tanks are complex vehicles requiring a lot industrial knowledge, production of mass-produced parts, etc to make and maintain. Sure, we could ask the Dwarves to reverse-engineer and then hand over shcematics and parts to reproduce, but understanding WHY those parts were engineered the way they were would still be an educational understanding the Empire doesn't have.

In addition, the Empire is hilariously fragmented in terms of actual industrial capacity and education. There basically is no mass educational system, nor standardized tools and measurement systems in use consistently across all territories, at least as far as I know.

So, an action at least starting the process of reversing this would be a good one possibly. Dwarves providing basic educators to the Elector provinces and the Emperor, to found schools to teach and spread basic Dwarven scientific and industrial knowledge and the standardized tools to work with, would provide a MUCH better foundation for advancement than the schizo tech that WHF has going now, barring a few geniuses like Leonardo da Miragliano. Then mankind could advance quicker on its own, and with more reliable means.


The funny thing is, Belegar would not be averse to us wanting to have a team of Dwarven engineers reverse engineer steam tanks, as he thinks very highly of us and we have a buttload of Dwarven Favor. I'd say we push for steam tank knowledge/schematics using our Favors.

@BoneyM , do Dwarves use runed cannons? I don't think they do, just curious. Maybe that's something we can push Kragg to develop bc we have an in with him now.
I like this idea but I don't think that dwarfs have those (the bolded) things either.

Edit: Yes they have runed cannons in canon. :V
 
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@BoneyM , do Dwarves use runed cannons? I don't think they do, just curious. Maybe that's something we can push Kragg to develop bc we have an in with him now.
There are engineering runes

  • Master Rune of Immolation - Devised to keep their prized war machines from falling into enemy hands, it is only invoked in desperate circumstances.
  • Master Rune of Disguise - This rune magically distorts the immediate area around the war machine, rendering it almost invisible from any distance.
  • Master Rune of Defence - Developed as a defensive measure during the War of Vengeance against the firepower of the High Elves, this rune has saved the lives of many crews.
  • Master Rune of Skewering - Elf mages helped create this rune before the War of Vengeance. There's no mention of this in Dwarf records.
  • Rune of Penetrating - These runes infuse their war machines with extra piercing ability.
  • Stalwart Rune - A war machine with this rune makes its crew unbearably proud - they will fight with great boldness to defend their beloved engine of war.
  • Rune of Accuracy - Once a missile inscribed with this rune is launched, the rune glows, invoking the Winds of Magic to blow it in the right direction.
  • Rune of Forging - This rune ensures the war machine is free from imperfections and therefore deadly accurate. In order to inscribe it, an Engineer must strike the machine with a hammer and a Runesmith must recite a special litany with each blow, making it a weeks-long ritual.
  • Flakkson's Rune of Seeking - This rune was first invented to shoot down Dragon riders with Bolt Throwers during the War of Vengeance.
  • Rune of Burning - Any ammunition shot fired by a war machine with this rune will burst into flames when it strikes its target.
  • Rune of Fortune - Discovered by Magnus Hammerson, who broke Runesmith tradition by selling it to the Engineers Guild.
  • Valiant Rune - Dwarf crews are famed for always defending their machines to the bitter end when attacked.
  • Rune of Reloading - When a war machine has proven its worth, it may be empowered with this rune.
 
If Empire starts burning wizards again, Belegar is going to open gates to wizards regardless of Boon, I wager. Mathilde and other wizards are likely to become a part of foundational legend of K8P, what with "immolate 500 000 orks", not to mention...well. Lots of things.
 
If Empire starts burning wizards again, Belegar is going to open gates to wizards regardless of Boon, I wager. Mathilde and other wizards are likely to become a part of foundational legend of K8P, what with "immolate 500 000 orks", not to mention...well. Lots of things.
I don't think we can assume that the social credit we have for being an awesome wizard is going to extend to all other zhufokrul after both Belegar and Mathilde have passed on unless we specifically get that put on the books of K8P. There's no reason the legend couldn't just be "Mathilde Weber did this" rather than "wizards did this."

Or, in other words: Belegar would definitely open gates to wizards to make Mathilde happy, but the Boon is our chance to systematize that and make it official policy, not contingent on personal ties or affection, but written into the oaths of the karak. I think that's valuable; it serves our short-term goals by making K8P's founding era be explicitly wizard-friendly, not just Mathilde-friendly, and it serves our long-term goals by giving wizards one ally who can always be counted on, even if dwarves will continue to think that manling magic is insane foolishness.
 
I like this idea but I don't think that dwarfs have those (the bolded) things either.

Edit: Yes they have runed cannons in canon. :V
Awesome, thanks for the info.

Well, if some version of Standardized Measurements and Standardized Tools doesn't exist, we should ask Belebro and Kragg and Thorek to develop both, and then to help spread both to humanity. Just take a bit more developmend in the beginning, that's all.

There are engineering runes

  • Master Rune of Immolation - Devised to keep their prized war machines from falling into enemy hands, it is only invoked in desperate circumstances.
  • Master Rune of Disguise - This rune magically distorts the immediate area around the war machine, rendering it almost invisible from any distance.
  • Master Rune of Defence - Developed as a defensive measure during the War of Vengeance against the firepower of the High Elves, this rune has saved the lives of many crews.
  • Master Rune of Skewering - Elf mages helped create this rune before the War of Vengeance. There's no mention of this in Dwarf records.
  • Rune of Penetrating - These runes infuse their war machines with extra piercing ability.
  • Stalwart Rune - A war machine with this rune makes its crew unbearably proud - they will fight with great boldness to defend their beloved engine of war.
  • Rune of Accuracy - Once a missile inscribed with this rune is launched, the rune glows, invoking the Winds of Magic to blow it in the right direction.
  • Rune of Forging - This rune ensures the war machine is free from imperfections and therefore deadly accurate. In order to inscribe it, an Engineer must strike the machine with a hammer and a Runesmith must recite a special litany with each blow, making it a weeks-long ritual.
  • Flakkson's Rune of Seeking - This rune was first invented to shoot down Dragon riders with Bolt Throwers during the War of Vengeance.
  • Rune of Burning - Any ammunition shot fired by a war machine with this rune will burst into flames when it strikes its target.
  • Rune of Fortune - Discovered by Magnus Hammerson, who broke Runesmith tradition by selling it to the Engineers Guild.
  • Valiant Rune - Dwarf crews are famed for always defending their machines to the bitter end when attacked.
  • Rune of Reloading - When a war machine has proven its worth, it may be empowered with this rune.
That is amazing news!

Okay, so runed cannons exist. Hmm...maybe refining the base design of cannons, creating more types of cannon for uses in the field or in siege fortifications, etc? IDK, but pushing for some form of Dwarven weapons development seems like a good idea.

And yeah, we're essentially burning our Favors to push Dwarven R&D, but I'm fine with that, as Order itself would benefit.
 
"good new! we finished the first prototype. and I only took 98 years!"

"she's dead jim."

"oh... pity that.
Yeah, and because of how these things go, Belegar's actual influence to change that (guilds and all) is rather limited.

The best thing to do would be to have humans create ideas, then the dwarves take em and make em better.

But that runs the risk of us loosing access to those ideas permanently as I recall since clearly no umgi would ever come up with something like this.
 
"good new! we finished the first prototype. and I only took 98 years!"

"she's dead jim."

"oh... pity that.

Oh, that's actually a fun way to use a Boon: make Belegar decree that dwarfs have to be faster on uptake of new stuff. :V

With usage of human cannons and Kragg inventing a new Rune, it's not like K8P is terribly against the idea.

(dwarf civil war tho)
 
Well, we should push Dwarven tech development to be slightly faster than that. Maybe achieve a compromise between human and Dwarven elements, like 20-year testing periods for any new tech, and 15-year testing periods for modifications of existing tech (double for anything Dwarves only are going to use or benefit from, but that's still 40 and 30 years, which is a lot shorter than before). Have trained and dedicated tech specialists whose sole job is to do weapons testing and refinement 24-7 (essentially a Dwarven R&D Complex), thus going through designs faster, and speeding up refinement through numerous prototypes. Maybe establish a mixed Standards Board to review new designs, a mix of Dwarves and Undumgi to provide various viewpoints on what to work on?

But it makes sense to push for Dwarves adapting to the increasingly deadly world outside of their Karaks, and having to sacrifice some of that vaunted perfectionism for getting shit done plain quicker. I mean, 98 years is ridiculous as a testing run, but humans certainly are known for throwing untested crap out onto battlefields. 20 and 15 years seems like a good compromise without causing too much of a ruckus for either species, hopefully.

I imagine in order to get anything done like this, though, Belegar would have to push for some pretty Radical reforms, which will cause waves. Has to be done though, and my writein for how to do it should possibly reduce tensions.
 
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Barak Varr will no more put Marienburg out of business with a few canals than Trieste or Bucharest - despite the Danube - put Amsterdam out. They serve different edges of a continent.
 
Well, we should push Dwarven tech development to be slightly faster than that. Maybe achieve a compromise between human and Dwarven elements, like 20-year testing periods for any new tech, and 15-year testing periods for modifications of existing tech (double for anything Dwarves only are going to use or benefit from, but that's still 40 and 30 years, which is a lot shorter than before). Have trained and dedicated tech specialists whose sole job is to do weapons testing and refinement 24-7 (essentially a Dwarven R&D Complex), thus going through designs faster, and speeding up refinement through numerous prototypes. Maybe establish a mixed Standards Board to review new designs, a mix of Dwarves and Undumgi to provide various viewpoints on what to work on?

But it makes sense to push for Dwarves adapting to the increasingly deadly world outside of their Karaks, and having to sacrifice some of that vaunted perfectionism for getting shit done plain quicker. I mean, 98 years is ridiculous as a testing run, but humans certainly are known for throwing untested crap out onto battlefields. 20 and 15 years seems like a good compromise without causing too much of a ruckus for either species, hopefully.

I imagine in order to get anything done like this, though, Belegar would have to push for some pretty Radical reforms, which will cause waves. Has to be done though, and my writein for how to do it should possibly reduce tensions.
The problem there is that development and research times are the purview of guilds and, most likely touchy and prideful, master engineers and blacksmiths. Belegar can apply pressure to them, sure, but his ability to force them to shorten time to deployment is limited.
 
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