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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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yeah, there is a good chance that the opinion of the more distant Karak's who were not on the front line might be a bit different
 
Y'know, we don't necessarily have to talk to the Elementalists ourselves to get the info.

The Bright Order has been described as being largely composed of the pre-Teclesian Fire Elementalist tradition, so they could have a bunch of elemental lore, and what they don't have themselves they could probably more easily trade for than Mathilde "Diplomacy 11" Weber.

There might be something about Earth Elementals in the Jade Order too? It was described as being largely composed of druids, but the emphasis on nature and earth makes me think some of the earth elementalists might have signed up too during the founding.

Certainly spending a bunch of College Favor to have the Brights/Jades do it sounds a lot easier than doing whacky disguise shenanigans to steal the Elementalists secrets for ourselves.
 
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While I totally understand all the speculation, I'm not going to close the door on the idea that we ourselves could make something of Bok working with Kragg, without needing to find a loophole Elf.

Beyond that, I'm just contemplating if it's worth the possibility of no gain to commission an item with Deathsight in hopes of it seeing souls...admittedly, it might also require some degree of Windsight as well, if we assume the runes to be as tied to the Winds as other (active) runes are.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
While I totally understand all the speculation, I'm not going to close the door on the idea that we ourselves could make something of Bok working with Kragg, without needing to find a loophole Elf.

Beyond that, I'm just contemplating if it's worth the possibility of no gain to commission an item with Deathsight in hopes of it seeing souls...admittedly, it might also require some degree of Windsight as well, if we assume the runes to be as tied to the Winds as other (active) runes are.
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The issue is that by default an "item of deathsight" would cast the Deathsight spell on the user. We want something at an additional layer of remove, where the item creates an image that Kragg can look at.
 
An AV glass or lenses might be a solution to the elemental soul but I wouldn't want to construct one until we have a room with all the emergency and isolation from the outside we can make. We also need to do a material interaction on AV as well.
 
Redshirt Army said:
The issue is that by default an "item of deathsight" would cast the Deathsight spell on the user. We want something at an additional layer of remove, where the item creates an image that Kragg can look at.
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Mmm...I've read through the discussion from update to here, but I probably forgot the details. If we should be so lucky for Deathsight to show the soul and the runes, well...isn't Kragg already seeing it via that? I mean, Deathsight, see spirits (hopefully runic souls) for several hours (again, hopefully). What am I missing? I can see how its a longshot, but being able to see SOMETHING doesn't seem to be the issue with the spell.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Mmm...I've read through the discussion from update to here, but I probably forgot the details. If we should be so lucky for Deathsight to show the soul and the runes, well...isn't Kragg already seeing it via that? I mean, Deathsight, see spirits (hopefully runic souls) for several hours. What am I missing?
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Spells that directly target dwarves turn the dwarf to stone. It has to be done at a remove.
 
So, dwarves don't reincarnate, and so that they don't get eaten in the Warp, the Ancestor Gods made their own afterlife, where every dwarf goes upon death. So, the militaristic every dwarf is in the army civilization has its own pocket dimension where every dead person goes.

Gentlemen, the dwarves have a fucking ghost army in another dimension.I wonder how it can be unleashed.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Y'know, we don't necessarily have to talk to the Elementalists ourselves to get the info.

The Bright Order has been described as being largely composed of the pre-Teclesian Fire Elementalist tradition, so they could have a bunch of elemental lore, and what they don't have themselves they could probably more easily trade for than Mathilde "Diplomacy 11" Weber.

There might be something about Earth Elementals in the Jade Order too? It was described as being largely composed of druids, but the emphasis on nature and earth makes me think some of the earth elementalists might have signed up too during the founding.

Certainly spending a bunch of College Favor to have the Brights/Jades do it sounds a lot easier than doing whacky disguise shenanigans to steal the Elementalists secrets for ourselves.
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Back in First Edition, it was actually the water elementalists who were noted to have ties with the Jade college; good ones, even, because they tried to stay politically viable after the introduction of the color colleges. How much of that was retained in this quest is of course up in the air, though.
 
chocolote12 said:
Back in First Edition, it was actually the water elementalists who were noted to have ties with the Jade college; good ones, even, because they tried to stay politically viable after the introduction of the color colleges. How much of that was retained in this quest is of course up in the air, though.
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Ah, right, forgot that Ghyran was associated with Water, not Earth. It'd be the Light College with Hysh that might have something... maybe, but that's a much longer shot than Jade or Bright are with their associated elements.

Funnily enough, it's our own Grey College that would be the most likely to have any Air Elemental lore of the Color Colleges, since Ulgu is the Wind of wind. Worth checking, but I don't have high hopes.
 
Zenbeast said:
Is this canonical for Dwarven magic resistance or just something you cooked up? Either way, awesome. We should go find a priest of Valaya then.
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Not canonical, as far as I'm aware.

me.me.here said:
Speaking of, do we know whether standard levels of Magesight could see the runes in Bok's soul? Or would we have to ask someone with less insight into the Winds to try and see if they can observe said runes before we could know that?
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Probably not well, if at all. It would be obscured by the elemental magic of Bok's physical form.

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Wonder if we can do those meditations more in the future...
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You can try, but it's unlikely to have a chance to get as dramatic a result as when you're about to wield Gazul's fire against an existential threat to an entire Karak.

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Deathsight: See spirits for an hour

Are spirits souls in this context?
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No.

Jyn Ryvia said:
also @BoneyM I noticed the +1 to a stat to a social? does that mean we can get stats from social turns if it's a pure 'information' based skill like lore? or it that this is a special case and behaves like an AP Social.
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That came from the meditation, not the social.

HanEmpire said:
@BoneyM can Mathilde present this idea to Belegar and Kragg in-character? The Eonir knowledge trade I mean.
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Mathilde barely knows they exist, let alone their capabilities. You could suggest it but it'd be based on almost zero IC knowledge, which would make it pretty unlikely to get past the whole 'elf' thing, and it'd be a matter of much debate amongst more conventional loremasters as to whether they'd be considered a separate polity for the purposes of Grudges and general opinion.

Alratan said:
Part of the challenge here is that a lot of the background of the Colleges that we have comes from an edition which makes it very explicit that no rival institutions can be allowed to exist; and that anyone that pretends otherwise only gets burned at the stake if they're lucky.

BoneyM is not adhering to anything more than superficially resembling this version of Warhammer, so the entire position of the Colleges and the articles of imperial magic are meaningless, as their premise has been revoked, and the entire justification for their monopoly, indeed their very existence as described, eliminated.

With the moral and practical justification for the Colleges having been excised, that means that the position of elementalists is up in the air - as indeed, are the Colleges themselves, as making them unambiguously rather than a necessarily evil institutions is a huge change.
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The Articles are not holy writ. They were put into law by an Emperor and the acts of another Emperor can overrule them. This is what has allowed the Elementalists to exist, because a later law by Dieter IV explicitly allowed their existence under Imperial law.
 
Redshirt Army said:
It'd be the Light College with Hysh that might have something
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Well, back in the First Edition, (with the appropriate labels, warnings, and disclaimers), the Earth Elementalists were explicitly noted to be capable of some of the same effects as Hysh mages (not spells, I don't think, but in terms of general earth manipulation); without needing a choir of lesser mages like the Light College did, even, because they insisted on always using reagents with their spells (color spells not needing reagents to work was actually their distinguishing feature in that edition, as well, because the magic didn't need to be altered or anything to work like the spells make them work). It stands to reason that it'd by Hysh which served as their counterpart, then, or the closest to it.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Ok, sooooo.... I just recently got the pdf for the newest edition of WFRP (which is also call 4th ed? even tho they are different books? must be a legal thing.)

Dwarfs:
On High Elves..
"Don't talk to me about those bloody bastards! Alrug skycaster, my Ultimate granduncle, was bloody betrayed in the bloody war of bloody Vengenace by those... those.... ARGH! It's our clans oldest grudge! Stood for thousands of bloody years! When I find the descendants of bloody Galanthiel Whisperthorn, by Grungni! I'm going to teach them all - every single last one of them- a lesson in manners with my axe!"
---- Snorrt Leivvusson, Diplomat from Karak Ziflin


High Elves
on Dwarfs...
'I suggest avoiding them. They are lost in the past, which blinds them to what's coming. Nod politely, accept the abuse, and move on. There is no point arguing, they will never change their minds.'
---Alathan Crestrider, Seaman from Cothique

Its interesting that the writers only gave opinion pieces rather than 'this is how it is.'... but ya....

edit: also, weird thing, both opinion pieces (high and wood) like Halflings wayyy more than the other races.
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whats their opinion on us humies if i may ask.
 
Hmmmmmm.

I wonder. We know that Thorek was willing to teach Kazrik basic Runesmithing. Should Mathilde reach the "no longer human" level of Dwarf Rep, I wonder if it'd be possible to get a similar level of education?

Obviously we'd have to swear binding oaths to never share it and such, and it'd probably be a decade of learning before we got even the basics, but it'd still be very much worth it. Even a basic introduction to runesmithing would probably vastly improve our ability to help decipher Bok, not to mention the value of getting the Dwarven magical perspective to complement our existing one.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hmmmmmm.

I wonder. We know that Thorek was willing to teach Kazrik basic Runesmithing. Should Mathilde reach the "no longer human" level of Dwarf Rep, I wonder if it'd be possible to get a similar level of education?

Obviously we'd have to swear binding oaths to never share it and such, and it'd probably be a decade of learning before we got even the basics, but it'd still be very much worth it. Even a basic introduction to runesmithing would probably vastly improve our ability to help decipher Bok, not to mention the value of getting the Dwarven magical perspective to complement our existing one.
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I figure its likely probable that humans cannot learn how to Smith with Runes like the dwarves can because they're not Dwarves, who are connected to the Glittering Realm and thus the original source of the Runes. IIRC the lore implies that Runelords/smiths have a sort of inherent connection to the place that lets them do what they do. Additionally when Mathilde was staring at Kragg doing his thing on the Towers she got precisely jack out of it from start to finish.

With that said the theory is likely plausible to wrap her head around, and that'd be useful on its own in at least identifying what the heck she's even looking at for stuff like the Elemental or random dwarf artifacts found on her travels.
 
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