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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DragonParadox said:
They are unlikely to trust us with said techniques. It bears remembering that there is considerable institutional and ideological friction there. Broadely speaking Teclisian mages think Elementalists are ticking time bombs (if the least dangerous of the sort) and the Elenetalists think the colleges are inhabited by jackbooted thugs who want to use them for cannon fodder in the service of the Empire.
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Given our much superior Windsage ability we don't necessarily need them to trust us with their techniques. We can learn a lot from just seeing them in action.
 
Candesce said:
We, uh, might want to seriously consider some of the obstacles we're likely to run into anyway, if we try that.

I wouldn't want to depend on the Prowler to make listening in on a Grey College lecture we weren't supposed to hear safe, for one.

But I think it's certainly worth a try.
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obviously its not that easy... but at the same time its that easy if you get what im saying.

Elementalist isn't really in the same league as the greys in clock and daggers and @BoneyM has said that the Liar Coin would work on the Grey Order even if it would cause some crosswires that would set them off for different questions.

I'm not going 'let's do it, and wave around that we did... there would never be any consequences.'

but its worth thinking about it because it would probably work. if we planned it out well.
 
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I am actually a little unclear what the precise ethical stance elves and dwarves are taking with each other.

We talk about grudges, but the dwarves aren't in an active state of war against the elves. They had that war, declared victory, and went home. They aren't sending Slayers out to kill as many elves as possible. They don't have a specific amount of harm they need to cause elves to end the grudge as far as I am aware.

Which isn't how other grudges see to work, is it?

It's more like... dwarves have decided that elves are inherently untrustworthy, that the alliance was a mistake, and that if they see an elf dying by the side of the road they absolutely shouldn't do anything about it. On the other hand, I don't think they would go to the side of the road to make sure they died either?

But if you actually challenged a dwarf on it and said, "Look, obviously the elven leaders did something really shitty and a lot of elves supported them and they were totally in the wrong, but individual elves are individuals. How can you say that they're all bad when we've seen individuals do good things and be good people on a one-on-one level?" what's the response? Assume for a moment that the dwarf was a deep thinker who actually felt obliged to justify themselves. What would they say?
 
bookworm702 said:
It does not work. Prowler only works in areas open to the general public.
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like a large lecture Hall?

The general public is an iffy term from what we found out in the Orc town.

If we look like a student or general elementlist, then we are part of the colleges 'general public' like we were in the Orc-town.

or is the Elementalist college a little too small for there to be someone you don't know to be there...

this needs more investigation.
 
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bookworm702 said:
It does not work. Prowler only works in areas open to the general public.
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Mind if I ask for a citation? This sounds plausible, but I'm not sure the university really counts as private property, and the prowler is described in the character sheet as: The Night Prowler: As long as you are outside of private property and within a town or city, nobody will question your presence and nobody will be able to find you if you do not wish them to.
The question of private vs public is particularly hairy when it comes to large universities, since they're established by public grant (see the bribe to Dieter IV), and often function as public spaces.
 
Briefvoice said:
But if you actually challenged a dwarf on it and said, "Look, obviously the elven leaders did something really shitty and a lot of elves supported them and they were totally in the wrong, but individual elves are individuals. How can you say that they're all bad when we've seen individuals do good things and be good people on a one-on-one level?" what's the response? Assume for a moment that the dwarf was a deep thinker who actually felt obliged to justify themselves. What would they say?
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"As soon as an elf renounces the king and country that committed the atrocities of the War of the Beard, I'll believe they might be a good person."
 
Strange9 said:
Mind if I ask for a citation? This sounds plausible, but I'm not sure the university really counts as private property, and the prowler is described in the character sheet as: The Night Prowler: As long as you are outside of private property and within a town or city, nobody will question your presence and nobody will be able to find you if you do not wish them to.
The question of private vs public is particularly hairy when it comes to large universities, since they're established by public grant (see the bribe to Dieter IV), and often function as public spaces.
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exactly, a large University has its own population, and the larger parts of them are 'public' as long as you are part of that population.

I don't think it would work for anywhere that roll is being called or an office.

but the Larger lecture theatres?
 
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Strange9 said:
Mind if I ask for a citation? This sounds plausible, but I'm not sure the university really counts as private property, and the prowler is described in the character sheet as: The Night Prowler: As long as you are outside of private property and within a town or city, nobody will question your presence and nobody will be able to find you if you do not wish them to.
The question of private vs public is particularly hairy when it comes to large universities, since they're established by public grant (see the bribe to Dieter IV), and often function as public spaces.
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As far as I understand it, Prowler's limitations are that if you can be a face in the crowd, it works, otherwise it won't.
So if it's a gigantic amphitheater filled to the brink with students, then prowler probably work, if it's a small class where the teacher can reasonably be expected to know every student, it won't.
 
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Pempelune said:
As far as I understand it, Prowler's limitations are that if you can be a face in the crowd, it works, otherwise it won't.
So if it's a gigantic amphitheater filled to the brink with students, then prowler probably work, if it's a small class where the teacher can reasonably be expected to know every student, it won't.
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Which (giant class filled to the brink) is probably not elementalism magic classes. That sort of knowledge is guarded carefully.

Maybe some of the more boring introductory classes at universities.
 
Eh look the deal is simple.

We either offer the elementalist college a shit load of money, or perform a large service for them.

Easy peasy, and either one is within our power.
 
Part of the challenge here is that a lot of the background of the Colleges that we have comes from an edition which makes it very explicit that no rival institutions can be allowed to exist; and that anyone that pretends otherwise only gets burned at the stake if they're lucky.

BoneyM is not adhering to anything more than superficially resembling this version of Warhammer, so the entire position of the Colleges and the articles of imperial magic are meaningless, as their premise has been revoked, and the entire justification for their monopoly, indeed their very existence as described, eliminated.

With the moral and practical justification for the Colleges having been excised, that means that the position of elementalists is up in the air - as indeed, are the Colleges themselves, as making them unambiguously rather than a necessarily evil institutions is a huge change.
 
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ninjafish said:
Eh look the deal is simple.

We either offer the elementalist college a shit load of money, or perform a large service for them.

Easy peasy, and either one is within our power.
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I feel College favors would be very valued to them, as would Dwarf favors. After all, since they stand outside the articles of magic their position in the Empire should be very unstable. A lot of College favor means they can expect the more legitimate and older magical institution to go to bat for them the next time some witch hunters try to mess with them, and Dwarf favor should carry some weight with the Sigmarites, their natural enemies.

Also, since unlike Elves they only do elementalism, they will probably be very interested in seeing such an ancient example of their craft. Good publishing material, that.
 
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Alratan said:
Part of the challenge here is that a lot of the background of the Colleges that we have comes from an edition which makes it very explicit that no rival institutions can be allowed to exist; and that anyone that pretends otherwise only gets burned at the stake if they're lucky.

BoneyM is not adhering to anything more than superficially resembling this version of Warhammer, so the entire position of the Colleges and the articles of imperial magic are meaningless, as their premise has been revoked, and the entire justification for their monopoly, indeed their very existence as described, eliminated.

With the moral and practical justification for the Colleges having been excised, that means that the position of elementalists is up in the air - as indeed, are the Colleges themselves, as making them unambiguously rather than a necessarily evil institutions is a huge change.
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That's a pretty absolute and reductionist view of the college and kinda neatly ignores most of the good they've done even if we just limit ourselves to the Greys.

If he's only superficially resembling the version of Warhammer that the background of the Colleges exists in, then that background should generally be tossed out and then we should obviously go with the background and canon as described in this quest which pretty well establishes they're a net good on the world as of right now and still have legitimacy.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I am actually a little unclear what the precise ethical stance elves and dwarves are taking with each other.

We talk about grudges, but the dwarves aren't in an active state of war against the elves. They had that war, declared victory, and went home. They aren't sending Slayers out to kill as many elves as possible. They don't have a specific amount of harm they need to cause elves to end the grudge as far as I am aware.

Which isn't how other grudges see to work, is it?

It's more like... dwarves have decided that elves are inherently untrustworthy, that the alliance was a mistake, and that if they see an elf dying by the side of the road they absolutely shouldn't do anything about it. On the other hand, I don't think they would go to the side of the road to make sure they died either?

But if you actually challenged a dwarf on it and said, "Look, obviously the elven leaders did something really shitty and a lot of elves supported them and they were totally in the wrong, but individual elves are individuals. How can you say that they're all bad when we've seen individuals do good things and be good people on a one-on-one level?" what's the response? Assume for a moment that the dwarf was a deep thinker who actually felt obliged to justify themselves. What would they say?
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Ok, sooooo.... I just recently got the pdf for the newest edition of WFRP (which is also call 4th ed? even tho they are different books? must be a legal thing.)

Dwarfs:
On High Elves..
"Don't talk to me about those bloody bastards! Alrug skycaster, my Ultimate granduncle, was bloody betrayed in the bloody war of bloody Vengenace by those... those.... ARGH! It's our clans oldest grudge! Stood for thousands of bloody years! When I find the descendants of bloody Galanthiel Whisperthorn, by Grungni! I'm going to teach them all - every single last one of them- a lesson in manners with my axe!"
---- Snorrt Leivvusson, Diplomat from Karak Ziflin


High Elves
on Dwarfs...
'I suggest avoiding them. They are lost in the past, which blinds them to what's coming. Nod politely, accept the abuse, and move on. There is no point arguing, they will never change their minds.'
---Alathan Crestrider, Seaman from Cothique

Its interesting that the writers only gave opinion pieces rather than 'this is how it is.'... but ya....

edit: also, weird thing, both opinion pieces (high and wood) like Halflings wayyy more than the other races.
 
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