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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Doomed Wombat said:
Perhaps, but it feels a bit premature.

Specially since our odds are kinda shite.
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I could say the same about discussing diplomatic solutions - it's premature since we don't know if they're viable, and the odds are probably terrible.

And besides, since the dragon's the only real military threat left in the Karak, figuring out how we should arrange our forces is pretty much just figuring out how to best defend against a dragon and possibly to entice the Waaagh if it hasn't attacked before then.

For example: I think that after clearing out all the free Karags, we should withdraw all garrisons except for the Undumgi and put every available force we have in front of the Citadel. This would prevent the possibility of being picked off piecemeal, make sure any fight happens under the aegis of heavy artillery support and where our forces can support each other, and present a big, tempting target on the other side of the Caldera for the orcs. Maybe put some token forces in the surface Karags to stab any orcs who try to dig through the sealed entrances, but only move them there just before the Waaagh arrives.
 
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13th Fleet said:
The current king of K8P is the pragmatic sort who might be willing to listen to the argument of "I'm a dragon that's capable of soloing armies."
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There's 'let the wookie dragon win' and allow it to stay in it's peak to avoid unnecessary bloodshed for little gain, but if the dragon claims all of K8P belongs to it then Belegar's pragmatism will find a limit.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
For example: I think that after clearing out all the free Karags, we should withdraw all garrisons except for the Undumgi and put every available force we have in front of the Citadel. This would prevent the possibility of being picked off piecemeal, make sure any fight happens under the aegis of heavy artillery support and where our forces can support each other, and present a big, tempting target on the other side of the Caldera for the orcs.
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True, but on the other mitten doesn't that mean we're clumping leaving ourselves vulnerable to battle magics like net, banishment and the all so popular speed of light boosted breath attack?

This kinda feels like trying to figure out how to fight a skyrim dragon if they could actually shout.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
True, but on the other mitten doesn't that mean we're clumping leaving ourselves vulnerable to battle magics like net, banishment and the all so popular speed of light boosted breath attack?
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The dragon can repeatedly cast those battle magics on more spread-out forces who can't help each other, so we pretty much just have to suck it up and try to counterspell any such attempts.
 
Gul Damar said:
There's 'let the wookie dragon win' and allow it to stay in it's peak to avoid unnecessary bloodshed for little gain, but if the dragon claims all of K8P belongs to it then Belegar's pragmatism will find a limit.
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Considering the dragon doesn't have the capability to garrison all the peaks and probably wants to sleep rather than perpetually clears skaven it seems somewhat unlikely it'll want all the peaks.
 
DragonParadox said:
I'm not entirely sure what needs a citation, Imperial dwarfs do not launch doomed expedition to strike out age old grudges, they do not live under the authority of the high king whose political manifesto is to strike out as many grudges as posibile before the dwarfs die and go to their ancestors. That is not so say that those dwarfs that live among humans turn from the ways of their ancestors entirely, they still value craft and mastery, they still mostly revere the Ancestor Gods, they even have their own newer grudges, but the Dammaz Kron and its age old wrongs does not rule their lives.
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Because you are making a lot of generalization about the entire lives of entire populations based on where they live.
You assuming a concious and active decoupling from the dwarven polity and everthing it represents just from where they live.
In many ways you just described every young hold ever, with positive pop growth, not under direct authority of the high king and with a younger book of grudges.
Basicaly you assuming imperial dwarves don't consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor, but those are dwarves, who canonicaly have held their natinal identity as members of a hold even when that had been falen for longer than the empire existed, hell for longer than was even lived in the first place maybe, so to believe that I need more than assumptions.
 
Exmorri said:
That is certainly a theory of property. Here's a competing theory of property: "I've been living in the place for a millennium now it belongs to me."
Valaya, Grungni and the other first dwarfs only showed up around -5000, so it's not obvious that the dwarfs lived in K8P for longer than they've been out of it.


Moving on to a new topic: How does the Grey College know that there's only one space-time continuum? For that matter, why is there only one space-time continuum? I'd expect the Warp to have one or two of its own, at least; or else for space-time to be not entirely continuous with the various flavors of magic running around the setting.
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Grey College are highly practical people who see value in combining people not trying to 'show them all' with not testing how many backup spacetimes there are.
 
13th Fleet said:
The current king of K8P is the pragmatic sort who might be willing to listen to the argument of "I'm a dragon that's capable of soloing armies."
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That honestly depends on the grudges applied to the dragon, and the dragon's mindset. If their bad enough we'd have the High King and multiple Thongs coming in to help. This entire argument depends on things we don't know yet.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
The dragon can repeatedly cast those battle magics on more spread-out forces who can't help each other, so we pretty much just have to suck it up and try to counterspell any such attempts.
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True, but frankly if the dragon uses any tactics at all then its just got to wait for the wizards to exhaust themselves. I dunno if Kragg or Thorek can get tired, but eventually they'll make a mistake too.

Also @lancelot found a list of dragon stuff.

Dragon ages tend to be divided into young, dragon, great dragon and emperor in world outside of Ulthwan, and most dragon species have a different name associated with them once they reach emperor.
Fire Dragon - are hot-tempered and intolerant beasts whose flaming breath and ready rage have long since passed into legend as being synonymous with Dragonkind.
Doomfire Dragon - (Emperor Fire Dragon) Potent fire-breathers capable of casting spells of Aqshy. They are swift to wrath and take an abiding joy in setting alight the towns and fortresses of lesser races as well.
Black Dragon - A species of Dragon bred by the Dark Elves of Naggaroth.
Nightmare Dragon - (Emperor Black Dragon) Pseudo-dragons said to be made of Shyish.
Forest Dragon - Dragons that are known to live mostly in forested regions of the world (Athel Loren in particular) and to breathe soporific fumes instead of fire.
Venom Dragon - (Emperor Forest Dragon) The oldest and most powerful Forest Dragon.
Frost Dragon - A species of Dragon that prefers the cold.
Ice Dragon - (Emperor Frost Dragon) A lazier but also deadlier variant of the Frost Dragon.
Storm Dragon - A species of Dragon that can breathe lightning.
Great Storm Dragon - (Emperor Storm Dragon) The wildest and most unpredicatable Storm Dragon
Zombie Dragon - A skeletal Dragon resurrected from the Plain of Bones.
Carmine Dragon - Dragons imbued with the magic of Shyish, the Wind of Death.
Chaos Dragon - A Dragon mutated by the powers of Chaos.
Frost Wyrm - A species of Chaos Dragon native to the frozen tundras of Troll Country (Chaos corrupted Ice Dragons).
Sea Dragon - An aquatic species of Dragon known to be used by the Dark Elves to pull their dreaded ships.
Helldrake - Sea Dragons that live in the Western Ocean.
Toad Dragon - A mutated off-shoot of Dragon which lives in the otherworldy fens of Cold Mire.
Shard Dragon - A degenerate subterranean off-shoot of the Dragon race.
Warpfire Dragon - A mutated variant of Dragon that feeds off warpstone.
Magma Dragon - A sub-species of Dragon known to live in volcanic regions of the world.
Oriental Dragon - (sometimes called Gold Dragon or Celestial Dragon) A species of Dragon that lives in the far east.
Merwyrm - A species of marintime creatures that are distant relatives to dragons.
Pagowyrm - A albino sub-species of merwyrm that dwells in the frigid seas of Naggaroth.
Sciowyrm - A black sub-species of merwyrm that dwells in the deepest ocean trenches.

No idea if this list is exhaustive, or if BoneyM has removed/added some.

lancelot said:
That honestly depends on the grudges applies to the dragon. If their bad enough we'd have the High King and multiple Thongs coming in to help. This entire argument depends on things we don't know yet.
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Well there is one thing we can go, on whoever this dragon is meant to be he's supposed to be a lazy git, but he's being very perky.
 
Zaratustra said:
Because you are making a lot of generalization about the entire lives of entire populations based on where they live.
You assuming a concious and active decoupling from the dwarven polity and everthing it represents just from where they live.
In many ways you just described every young hold ever, with positive pop growth, not under direct authority of the high king and with a younger book of grudges.
Basicaly you assuming imperial dwarves don't consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor, but those are dwarves, who canonicaly have held their natinal identity as members of a hold even when that had been falen for longer than the empire existed, hell for longer than was even lived in the first place maybe, so to believe that I need more than assumptions.
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The crucial part here is Young Hold as opposed to human city, a Young Hold will launch reconquest expedition either of their own accord or at the High King's will. Dwarfs living in a human city will by and large do neither. The only ones who might join wandering adventurers and those looking to join a new clan like the ones who made up clan Huzkul.
 
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So a random thought I had that I think the thread and @BoneyM might find funny, but since K8P is getting more than a few Empire citizens immigrating due to things like that Nuln Engineering College branch and considering the prominence of Mathilde along with the other Wizards......What are the chances that our old nemesis Wizard Chic might make a reappearance?
 
Doomed Wombat said:
True, but frankly if the dragon uses any tactics at all then its just got to wait for the wizards to exhaust themselves. I dunno if Kragg or Thorek can get tired, but eventually they'll make a mistake too.
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Not really. It seems unlikely that it can repeatedly cast battle magic from beyond the range of our artillery or Runelords. I would also imagine a dragon to be too proud to hide away and cheese like that, even if it could. No, it'll engage our force - possibly targeting the high-value targets first - and we'll have the opportunity to try and bring it down with cannon and magic, probably taking serious losses whilst doing so.

Sinsystems said:
So a random thought I had that I think the thread and @BoneyM might find funny, but since K8P is getting more than a few Empire citizens immigrating due to things like that Nuln Engineering College branch and considering the prominence of Mathilde along with the other Wizards......What are the chances that our old nemesis Wizard Chic might make a reappearance?
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Breaking news - on the wise advice of his Loremaster, King Belegar has banned Wizard Chic from his kingdom, lest it encourage the uneducated to try to use magic themselves or confuse people as to who to go to on magic-related matters. And no other reason.
 
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Doomed Wombat said:
There's a list somewhere where BoneyM gave all the types of dragon broken down by wind use.
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Here:

BoneyM said:
Qhaysh - High Magic - Celestial Dragon? Coatl?
Ghyran - Life Magic - Forest / Venom Dragon
Shyish - Death Magic - Carmine / Emperor Carmine Dragon
Ghur - Beast Magic - Dread Saurian?
Chamon - Metal Magic - Shard Dragon?
Aqshy - Fire Magic - (Red/Fire) / Doomfire Dragon, Magma Dragon?
Azyr - Celestial Magic - Storm / Great Storm Dragon
Hysh - Light Magic - Frost / Ice Dragon
Ulgu - Shadow Magic - ???
Dhar - Dark Magic - Chaos Dragon, Black / Nightmare Dragon, Zombie Dragon
??? - Toad Dragon, Merwyrm / Sea Dragon
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Deathbybunnies said:
Not really. It seems unlikely that it will choose to repeatedly cast battle magic from beyond the range of our artillery or Runelords. I would also imagine a dragon to be too proud to hide away and cheese like that, even if it could. No, it'll engage our force - possibly targeting the high-value targets first - and we'll have the opportunity to try and bring it down with cannon and magic, probably taking serious losses whilst doing so.
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Maybe.

Going by what is supposedly known of ice dragons this one is acting very oddly. And you know emperor dragon. Were it a younger dragon I'd be fine saying pride, but at this age I'm paranoid.

Even then I wouldn't rely on either of those being too effective against it unless its an anvil of doom smack. Between the boon of Hysh and going at the speed of light I imagine there's very little we can do to even hit it, never mind do anything that does permanent damage and I'm not sure if our magic is much use against it lacking in battle magics as we are.

Maybe if one of the goldies knew final transmutation?

Or we could try chucking the bronze sphere at its head.
 
dunk1010 said:
Honestly... I am pretty sure that killing the Emperor Dragon is a longshot.

Like, "If we toss everything at it, we might slow it down as it slaughters all of us enough for both of our Runelords to work together and use a dozen Ancestor Runes in conjunction to probably, maybe, kill it or for ranald to take pity on us and use Divine Intervention."

I am not even joking, I am completely serious and while I might be wrong, I don't think I am that far off.
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Not only I think you are wrong, I think you are wildly off.

Cannons can hurt anything. I'd say Kragg and Thorek on their Anvils by themselves have better than even odds of doing it. We are about to get the entire air fleet of KaK, which has cannons and other nice surprises mounted on them.

It's in the weight category of a Greater Daemon, and those, while very very dangerous, have gone down with far less. Hell, this wouldn't be the first Emperor Dragon the Karaz Ankor kills.
 
DragonParadox said:
The crucial part here is Young Hold as opposed to human city, a Young Hold will launch reconquest expedition either of their own accord or at the High King's will. Dwarfs living in a human city will by and large an neither. the only ones who might join wandering adventurers and those looking to voin a new clan like the ones who made up clan Huzkul.
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No that is not the crucial part, the crucial part is, is that due to a lack of willingness or ability ?
Because that is the key, the question is if they don't do that because they don't want and cut themselves from the dwarven polity as you said or just because they can't because they lack the infraestructure to either build such an expedition or join one they trust to make a diference ?
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Not only I think you are wrong, I think you are wildly off.

Cannons can hurt anything. I'd say Kragg and Thorek on their Anvils by themselves have better than even odds of doing it. We are about to get the entire air fleet of KaK, which has cannons and other nice surprises mounted on them.

It's in the weight category of a Greater Daemon, and those, while very very dangerous, have gone down with far less. Hell, this wouldn't be the first Emperor Dragon the Karaz Ankor kills.
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Yes, I don't think it's really a question of "can we kill it" unless we get some truly terrible rolls. It's more a question of "can we kill it without taking ruinous losses."
 
Zaratustra said:
Not that is not the crucial part, the crucial part is, is that due to a lack of willingness or ability ?
Because that is the key, the question is if they don't do that because they don't want and cut themselves from the dwarven polity as you said or just because they can't because they lack the infraestructure to either build such an expedition or join one they trust to make a diference ?
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Lack of willingness definitely, there are enough dwarfs in human lands to form significant portions of the population up to 10% in some cities and those clans are rich enough that they are often the target of mobs of humans looking to lash out at those who are both rich and different. If they wanted to launch expeditions they had the resources to do so.

Also it is worth nothing that these are dwarfs who deliberately placed themselves outside the authority of the High King. There could have gone to any dwarf hold, there is plenty of room. They chose instead to leave the Karaz Ankor entirely.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Not only I think you are wrong, I think you are wildly off.

Cannons can hurt anything. I'd say Kragg and Thorek on their Anvils by themselves have better than even odds of doing it. We are about to get the entire air fleet of KaK, which has cannons and other nice surprises mounted on them.

It's in the weight category of a Greater Daemon, and those, while very very dangerous, have gone down with far less. Hell, this wouldn't be the first Emperor Dragon the Karaz Ankor kills.
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This is of course assuming we manage to get the dragon out in the open air and somehow get a clear shot, when he's a Hysh Grandmaster Emperor Dragon who can use Timewarp and Speed of Light. I think we can beat him if we leveraged all our resources, but I also think we have a real chance of losing. And beyond that, any victory we have is most likely to be Pyrrhic. The losses we would sustain would be ruinous.
 
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