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First rule of another race is that they don't think like humans, between near perfect memories, and living for multiple centuries. 3000 years, might as well be 300 for a human. It's a rare dragon that isn't with the High Elves that can be reasoned with, if it can be reasoned with, doesn't have Dawi treasure as part of it's hoard, and is willing to pay or work as 'rent' then great. If not it dies just that simple.
I know. That's why I said dwarfs are inhumanly bitter. Literally. 300 years is still plenty of time for a people to migrate to a new location, develop national identity, get conquered, hold a rebellion, throw off your shackles, have all the revolutionaries die off, and spawn a new generation of children looking back at the deeds of their ancestors.
 
I think we should stop saying "squatter" about the dragon, unless it turns out it sneakily moved in just last year or something. Dwarfs lost Karak Eight Peaks three thousand years ago. That's long enough to become indigenous in most places IRL. Dwarfs are so inhumanly bitter and grudge-holding they're pushing the equivalent of Babylonian revanchism and being upset about the destruction of the Hanging Gardens by the Assyrians. (attributed to Sennacherib ca. 700BC)

On the other hand, AFAIK, neither the dragon nor the dwarfs have signed onto any sort of international treaty regarding such things, so this doesn't give the dragon any rights as such, the dwarfs will probably be onboard with killing a "settler" or "indigenous" dragon instead if they can't come to an agreement about letting it stay in their Karak.

Dwarfs live at least twice longer than humans, so Babylon example is not the best. Medieval-based revanchism is more appropriate, and that's a thing in real life.

In any case, by dwarf sensibilities he is still a squatter.
 
First rule of another race is that they don't think like humans, between near perfect memories, and living for multiple centuries. 3000 years, might as well be 300 for a human. It's a rare dragon that isn't with the High Elves that can be reasoned with, if it can be reasoned with, doesn't have Dawi treasure as part of it's hoard, and is willing to pay or work as 'rent' then great. If not it dies just that simple.
I feel this greatly simplifies the possible results of talking with the dragon. You created two options. For one of those options you stacked a ton of conditionals and have set the second option as an automatic result if any of the conditions on the first option are not met.

As long as a being is able to engage in meaningful ways a peaceful solution can be reached. The only question with that is if the price of the peaceful situation is worth it. That is not something Mathilde should be deciding expect for the most dire of circumstances. As other people have mentioned we should aim for a non aggression agreement until someone more suited for diplomacy can arrive.

Personally I think a good result for everyone would the dragon being willing to move to make sure it's resting place is unknown and peaceful. However, there are many many different results that could occur and trying to boil all of them down into a binary choice seems... harmful to a discussion about the talks with the dragon and the establishing of diplomatic goals.
 
Even if the dragon isn't willing to move then...well its not like dwarves don't have precedents for letting dragons live in their holds so long as they don't bother each other.

Dwarves can be stubborn to the point of stupidity, but they do know how to prioritise.

Just as they're not trying to avenge grudges written against tribesmen of the Asoborns who are dead 2000+ years they're not going to be avenging ones against a dragon whilst there are more pressing ones they can cross out with fewer wasted dawi lives.

And that's assuming the dragon even has grudges, and if they do that they're not willing to try and make up the grudges in other ways, blood isn't the only way to get rid of those.
 
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First rule of another race is that they don't think like humans, between near perfect memories, and living for multiple centuries. 3000 years, might as well be 300 for a human. It's a rare dragon that isn't with the High Elves that can be reasoned with, if it can be reasoned with, doesn't have Dawi treasure as part of it's hoard, and is willing to pay or work as 'rent' then great. If not it dies just that simple.

Mathilde is in the hot seat right now and the Dawi respect hierarchy.

The policy we set now will likely be upheld by Belegar who basically thought Mathilde was the best thing to happen to Clan Angrund since they left Karak Eight Peaks before she conquered half the Karak in an afternoon.

Belegar's attitude will in turn determine how everyone else in Karaz Ankor reacts.
 
This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.
 
This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.
I mean even then grudges don't have to be resolved in blood as I understand it. Its just most of the time its the most expedient and likely scenario that they will be solved.

I'd say the dragon didn't get this old by being unable to pick its fights, but it is a dragon so...
 
No negotiation, no perhaps trying not to piss off the flying intelligent WMD, just going to go straight to killing it if these criteria ain't fulfilled?

I suppose we shouldn't use the Zhuffbar model for dealing with Dragons then?

Reread my post see where it says if it 'if it can be reasoned with'? Please read more carefully in the future.

I know. That's why I said dwarfs are inhumanly bitter. Literally. 300 years is still plenty of time for a people to migrate to a new location, develop national identity, get conquered, hold a rebellion, throw off your shackles, have all the revolutionaries die off, and spawn a new generation of children looking back at the deeds of their ancestors.

They built the place it belongs to them. They lived in these places for even longer then they've lost them and their culture is built around getting them back. Every Hold lost is another place for Orks, and rats to breed. Never mind how Grudges effect their entire race, grudges are far more then a list in a book. Your still applying human POV to this, they're not just more bitter and stubborn then humans.
 
This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.

Grudges can be washed away in mutual enemies' blood, as Mathilde did at Drakenhoff. Exterminating Clan Skyre, Eshin, and Mors in Karak Eight Peaks would possibly be worth a lot of grudges.
 
It depends on the gravity of the grudges and who they are owed to, some things could be brought before reckoners.
I mean even then grudges don't have to be resolved in blood as I understand it. Its just most of the time its the most expedient and likely scenario that they will be solved.

I'd say the dragon didn't get this old by being unable to pick its fights, but it is a dragon so...
I can't imagine there's many ways the dragon is likely to have angered the dwarves that don't involve killing some of them, but I suppose it's possible.

Still, that just moves my statement along one step: This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got serious grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.
 
Dwarfs live at least twice longer than humans, so Babylon example is not the best. Medieval-based revanchism is more appropriate, and that's a thing in real life.

In any case, by dwarf sensibilities he is still a squatter.
Well, under the right circumstances humans can have a pretty strong irredentist desire to reclaim the land of their ancestors, even if they lost it nearly two thousand years earlier.
 
They built the place it belongs to them. They lived in these places for even longer then they've lost them and their culture is built around getting them back. Every Hold lost is another place for Orks, and rats to breed. Never mind how Grudges effect their entire race, grudges are far more then a list in a book. Your still applying human POV to this, they're not just more bitter and stubborn then humans.

Grudges to not effect their entire race, they affect their culture, their polity the Karaz Ankor. The world is full of dwarfs who have turned their back on the Book of Grudges and the slow death and ruin it imposes, choosing instead to live among humans.
 
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I think we should stop saying "squatter" about the dragon, unless it turns out it sneakily moved in just last year or something. Dwarfs lost Karak Eight Peaks three thousand years ago. That's long enough to become indigenous in most places IRL. Dwarfs are so inhumanly bitter and grudge-holding they're pushing the equivalent of Babylonian revanchism and being upset about the destruction of the Hanging Gardens by the Assyrians. (attributed to Sennacherib ca. 700BC)

On the other hand, AFAIK, neither the dragon nor the dwarfs have signed onto any sort of international treaty regarding such things, so this doesn't give the dragon any rights as such, the dwarfs will probably be onboard with killing a "settler" or "indigenous" dragon instead if they can't come to an agreement about letting it stay in their Karak.
The only reason we don't have states attempting to enforce their three thousand year old claims is because we don't have states with three thousand year old claims, much less states that were at war for three thousand years.
 
This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.

Oh didn't see that, yeah dragon pride means it dies to erase those grudges. Dragon never going to humble itself to satisfy those grudges with anything besides it's life.
 
Grudges to not effect their entire race, they affect their culture, their polity the Karaz Ankor. The world is full of dwarfs who have turned their back on the Book of Grudges and the slow death and ruins is imposes, choosing instead to live among humans.
You know you keep mentioning that but, this fells like a non sequitur, like why deciding to live in a diferent place mean they are giving up on their culture ? Do you have a citation for that ?
 
Reread my post see where it says if it 'if it can be reasoned with'? Please read more carefully in the future.
I apologise, even then that's still an impressive list of conditionals to be applied to a sentient who a very real option is brick up a la a cask of amontillado and can be "bribed" with shines of a different kind.

Still, that just moves my statement along one step: This whole conversation is of course moot if the dragon's got serious grudges leveled against it. Discussing how to deal with it if no diplomatic solution is possible is reasonable.
Perhaps, but it feels a bit premature.

Specially since our odds are kinda shite.

Oh didn't see that, yeah dragon pride means it dies to erase those grudges. Dragon never going to humble itself to satisfy those grudges with anything besides it's life.
Perhaps if its a sun dragon or moon dragon equivalent, but by my understanding, the star/emperor stage were meant to have a bit more control of the old pride. The living through the high points of every species likely would impress upon them that they're not invincible.
 
Regardless of anything can we all just pray that the dragon's learned Khazalid, or Reikspeil or something we can speak other than ****ing elvish?

If worst comes to worse I'd like to be able to insult it in a language where it can't misinterpret it as asking to give a bath.
 
Perhaps if its a sun dragon or moon dragon equivalent, but by my understanding, the star/emperor stage were meant to have a bit more control of the old pride. The living through the high points of every species likely would impress upon them that they're not invincible.

Those are the dragon's tied to High Elves, as I understand their are a number of other types of dragons. Ice Dragons that work with Dark Elves, Magma dragons, and a few others.
 
They built the place it belongs to them. They lived in these places for even longer then they've lost them and their culture is built around getting them back. Every Hold lost is another place for Orks, and rats to breed. Never mind how Grudges effect their entire race, grudges are far more then a list in a book. Your still applying human POV to this, they're not just more bitter and stubborn then humans.
That is certainly a theory of property. Here's a competing theory of property: "I've been living in the place for a millennium now it belongs to me."
Valaya, Grungni and the other first dwarfs only showed up around -5000, so it's not obvious that the dwarfs lived in K8P for longer than they've been out of it.

Every time someone in the Grey College starts trying to make Ulgu do time manipulation, their future self comes back to warn them not to.

It's actually a fairly simple illusion that the College itself is enchanted with, but it works better than just banning it. The College is full of rooms that can be replaced if someone blows them up, but there's only one space-time continuum and the Grey College doesn't want to be responsible for replacing it.
Moving on to a new topic: How does the Grey College know that there's only one space-time continuum? For that matter, why is there only one space-time continuum? I'd expect the Warp to have one or two of its own, at least; or else for space-time to be not entirely continuous with the various flavors of magic running around the setting.
 
You know you keep mentioning that but, this fells like a non sequitur, like why deciding to live in a diferent place mean they are giving up on their culture ? Do you have a citation for that ?

I'm not entirely sure what needs a citation, Imperial dwarfs do not launch doomed expedition to strike out age old grudges, they do not live under the authority of the high king whose political manifesto is to strike out as many grudges as posibile before the dwarfs die and go to their ancestors. That is not so say that those dwarfs that live among humans turn from the ways of their ancestors entirely, they still value craft and mastery, they still mostly revere the Ancestor Gods, they even have their own newer grudges, but the Dammaz Kron and its age old wrongs does not rule their lives.
 
Those are the dragon's tied to High Elves, as I understand their are a number of other types of dragons. Ice Dragons that work with Dark Elves, Magma dragons, and a few others.
As I understand it, the Sun, Moon and Star categories are just the names for the dragons that live on Ulthwan which is a reference to their age not their type and all species of dragon live on Ulthwan we just see fire breathers for abstraction purposes in canon, but this is the case in quest.

Dragons that don't live on Ulthwan have titles which are analogous to sun, moon and star of which emperor is the Star equivalent.

So you can have an Ulthwani ice dragon that is an emperor and a star dragon at the same time, which adds the additional conditional of an ice dragon which is the emperor form of a frost dragon which is the entire genus.

In any case my understanding is that its Dark Dragons who work with Dark Elves, not frost dragons, the majority of which seem to have lived up north and are now corrupted into frost wyrms the norscans occasionally use.

There's a list somewhere where BoneyM gave all the types of dragon broken down by wind use.

Dwarfs don't give a shit about that theory.
But, they do appreciate that some squatters are not worth the effort of removing at this time.

Again see Zhuffbar.
 
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