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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Redshirt Army said:
Well, there's no way that the dragon would agree to give us some ultra rare runic sword for "merely" twice its weight in gold. I figured that such artifacts could be traded for on a case-by-case basis, with the circumstances around each one being so divergent that attempting to codify them within this single document would be pointless.

Better to just have a guaranteed approach to reclaiming any "mundane" items important to the dwarves.
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Yeah; your logic made sense to me. Any "right-to-purchase-at-set-price" clause is necessarily going to have to be limited for anyone to want that deal.
 
Make it clear that the 'cultural' supersedes the 'runic' incase it has any amazing unknown dwarf runes Kragg would like to have a look at.

Also, options to trade magic/runic items for gold on a case by case basis if it is interested in doing so

Also, cut the "ends of the earth" to "reasonable effort" levels?

I'm aware that I'm mixing in first and second stage negotiations here btw, it's a bit messy, sorry.

Overall, I like you idea, but you give too much for too little, and some of what you offer (potentially unique rune being left unavailable for study depending on how your agreement is read) should not be on the table.

Edit: if it is rune lore that is a factor, then, a lesser "right to study runic objects of significance untill the rune is understood and the object returned to the dragon" might be a much much eiser deal to make.

A "rune of awesome" item is worth much less than the ability to make a new item to the dwarves imo.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
this is def a first round drift before the dwarfs mod it. no way they will go for it.

you legally made the Dwarfs the Dragons bitchs.
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Not really. 'You won't eat us, you won't change the deal, and you'll let us have our stuff back, and in exchange we'll let you stay in the mountain, we'll stab thieves taking advantage of you not eating us, and we won't try to keep your hoard' sets up a rather nice quid pro quo; you don't eat us, and we'll make sure you won't want to eat us.
BeepSmile said:
Make it clear that the 'cultural' supersedes the 'runic' incase it has any amazing unknown dwarf runes Kragg would like to have a look at.

Also, options to trade magic/runic items for gold on a case by case basis if it is interested in doing so
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Those'll fall into individual negotiations, given that Runic items can be pretty amazing, and as a person the dragon will be quite aware of the value of their supernatural properties. The swap clause is just there to trade out gold for gold that has sentimental value, which is mostly what dwarves would care about.
BeepSmile said:
Also, cut the "ends of the earth" to "reasonable effort" levels?
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A reasonable effort is hard to define, and implies that dwarven security isn't a hundred percent secure. 'They take the gold, they get the grudge' is a much simpler offer.
 
chocolote12 said:
Not really. 'You won't eat us, you won't change the deal, and you'll let us have our stuff back, and in exchange we'll let you stay in the mountain, we'll stab thieves taking advantage of you not eating us, and we won't try to keep your hoard' sets up a rather nice quid pro quo; you don't eat us, and we'll make sure you won't want to eat us.

Those'll fall into individual negotiations, given that Runic items can be pretty amazing, and as a person the dragon will be quite aware of the value of their supernatural properties. The swap clause is just there to trade out gold for gold that has sentimental value, which is mostly what dwarves would care about.

A reasonable effort is hard to define, and implies that dwarven security isn't a hundred percent secure. 'They take the gold, they get the grudge' is a much simpler offer.
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If some Tezeenzich sorcerer throws a silver goblet/cool thing #4/something else into the warp, or the heart of power of that dickhead dark elf dude in the north, it's gone. Not worth the bother.

That's the level of effort I was concerned might be meant. Your take on it was probably much less extreme than mine just.

Edit: I did edit in a bit about studying the runes and then returning the items, as an alternative, if the dragon has unique shit in there we really want.

Edit edit: reasonable effort is hard to define, sorry, I'm very sleepy and was being lazy with my language, was more trying to get my general idea across
 
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Please don't write in micromanage something as fiddly as a contract without any knowledge of even what stuff is worth in-setting. Just give some high level directions and let the pc and dwarfs do their thing.
 
SCO said:
Please don't write in micromanage something as fiddly as a contract without any knowledge of even what stuff is worth in-setting. Just give some high level directions and let the pc and dwarfs do their thing.
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On the other hand, attempts at difficult social actions are made much easier with an idea of what's being proposed; Boney said outright that coming up with a good lie would help us use our lying actions on Qrech better, and when we did come up with one he was very happy with it and included it in the update.

So micromanaging isn't good, I agree, but giving Boney an idea of what we're trying to offer, roughly, I would argue is.
 
Yeah, those are terrible, terrible terms that we are way over our head in offering, we are a temporary thane, not King of the Karak.
Seriously, not even a "The Dragon shall lend its aid against any and all threats to the Karak" which is the only way i can see this working for us.

No, our best chance is to lead the dragon against the Waaagh and hope it dies.
 
Redshirt Army said:
The Kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks, in exchange for the Ice Dragon's assistance in the reclamation of the Eight Peaks, grants the dragon legal rights to all dwarven gold and crafts already within its hoard, in addition to ten thousand ingots of silver.
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Also, little bit of a wording nitpick, you might want to change "grants the dragon legal rights" to "relinquishes any claim". As far as the dragon is probably concerned, that hoard already belongs to it, so instead of trying to say "we'll give you your own hoard", you say "we admit the hoard is yours, and that we will never try to steal it."
 
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[X] YAR: Fortify and garrison all entrances to the mountain.
-[X] Clan Angrund, Throng of Karak Azul, Karak Izor Immigrants
-[X] Mathilde

[X] RHYN: Assault the Trolls now.

[X] ZILFIN: Assault the mountain to slay any surviving Skaven.
 
das_slash said:
Yeah, those are terrible, terrible terms that we are way over our head in offering, we are a temporary thane, not King of the Karak.
Seriously, not even a "The Dragon shall lend its aid against any and all threats to the Karak" which is the only way i can see this working for us.

No, our best chance is to lead the dragon against the Waaagh and hope it dies.
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I hope that the dragon is friendly to us and I hope the tower + aid Gyrocopters will be enough for the Waagah

Prospalz said:
literal end of the world tho, that is
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Too sleepy to understand, sozz. I think there should be a reasonable limit to how high on the grudge list a given theft might be worth, but overall I like the idea of offering the dragon low/moderate tier dwarf style security.

But hopefully those speficis will be outside of our level of abstraction/second stage negotiations
 
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das_slash said:
Yeah, those are terrible, terrible terms that we are way over our head in offering, we are a temporary thane, not King of the Karak.
Seriously, not even a "The Dragon shall lend its aid against any and all threats to the Karak" which is the only way i can see this working for us.

No, our best chance is to lead the dragon against the Waaagh and hope it dies.
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Deathfang, a much less powerful dragon, and his elf buddy charge ridiculously larger sums that what this treaty is offering for such services over shorter periods of time. Requesting a constant service from the dragon means supplying a constant payment, and that dragon isn't going to spend any of it, so the economy of the Karak can't recycle those government expenditures.
 
BARRING such greviances against the dwarf peoples as to incur a Grudge, unknown to either party at the time of the agreement, it is established that:

Fine

• The Ice Dragon shall not act against the dwarven kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks, including but not limited to the form of razing said kingdom or its armies to the ground.

Fair


• The Ice Dragon shall limit its territories within Karak Eight Peaks to the locations listed within this agreement, or with future agreements with rulers of the kingdom.

Legally suspect, what does future mean, what is the trigger for renegotiations.

• The Ice Dragon shall allow the kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks to claim any items within its hoard of cultural or historical (but not magical or runic) significance, in exchange for twice said items weight in diamonds (of equal size to any jewelled portions) and gold (for any other portion).

Legally suspect, cultural or historical are often the same as magical or runic, and recognising somethings cultural or historical value is the same as recognising that they don't have the right, by the document, to withhold the item if gold if offered 'compulsory purchase' the same problem in reverse if the dwarfs recognise the magical or runic value of a cultural or historical item.

• The Kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks shall allow the Ice Dragon unrestricted remit to establish its territory within all parts of the mountain Karak Zilfin that lie above the City of Pillars, for a period of no less than one thousand years.

Legally suspect, knowing the lifetimes of both parties is that generous? even if so, the dragon is currently in residence and in defence. to agree to this term is to agree to let the Dwarfs into a position to enforce this clause.

• The Kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks will make no demands of the Ice Dragon nor disturb it should it enter slumber, and will guard the dragon against any intruders that would disturb its rest.

uneven trade, nothing is offered in trade of dwarf Service for unspecified time and difficulty.



• The Kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks shall guard the dragon's hoard against all outside intrusion or theft, and will pursue any thieves that do attempt to steal from the dragon's hoard to the ends of the world.

uneven trade, nothing is offered in trade of dwarf Service for unspecified time and difficulty.

• The Kingdom of Karak Eight Peaks, in exchange for the Ice Dragon's assistance in the reclamation of the Eight Peaks, grants the dragon legal rights to all dwarven gold and crafts already within its hoard, in addition to ten thousand ingots of silver.

uneven trade, legal suspect by terms of 3*, gains and loses unspecified, high chance of dwarf refusal etc etc. this is the wost clause ive seen since the 2019 US farm bill drafts.

MATHILDE WEBER, Thane of Karak Eight Peaks

Dip is definitely your dump stat.
 
BeepSmile said:
I hope that the dragon is friendly to us and I hope the tower + aid Gyrocopters will be enough for the Waagah
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A friendly dragon would be good, but on those terms I would prefer an enemy.
The best I am willing to offer is:

Mutual protection agreement, we help each other against anything that represents a threat to the entire Karak.
We in turn promise to never move against it, and secure the nearby mountains against potential thieves.
We get the chance to buy anything of potential significance go the dwarfs.
We provide a secure vault for it's hoard and embellishments for it's lair.
We open communication channels for potential students to meet with the dragon, with a tribute system for his time.

No more than that, certainly no payments and no defending it without a mutual defense agreement.

But again, I"m really hoping it just dies.
 
Signing away your fallen capital is going to be an absurdly bitter pill to swallow for any Dwarf.

Hope for peaceful arrangement that is actually doable, but prepare to fight. And this dragon is probably never going to be this exhausted again.

(Is there an actual crew manning the Eye right now, because this is where we want it, if it wombo combos off of a direct Kragg's Anvil Says Fuck You hit, we have better odds)
 
chocolote12 said:
On the other hand, attempts at difficult social actions are made much easier with an idea of what's being proposed; Boney said outright that coming up with a good lie would help us use our lying actions on Qrech better, and when we did come up with one he was very happy with it and included it in the update.

So micromanaging isn't good, I agree, but giving Boney an idea of what we're trying to offer, roughly, I would argue is.
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At the same time, at best we could negotiate a temporary cease-fire. The terms of any theoretical treaty would be up to Belegar.

ChronOblivion said:
(Is there an actual crew manning the Eye right now, because this is where we want it, if it wombo combos off of a direct Kragg's Anvil Says Fuck You hit, we have better odds)
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We don't have 'Dragon' set up as a targeting crystal, so the only way it could be used to hurt the dragon is with Mathilde running it.
 
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Guile said:
"Don't worry, it's just Dwarf Hell" is unlikely to make non-Gazul worshippers less unsettled, going by our sample size.
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Oh sure, it's not gonna comfort them, but it means that anti-Belegar conservatives have an uphill battle if they want to say he's spitting in the face of tradition, dishonoring the ancestors, etc. etc. you know the drill. "Gazul approves of this tower enough to wield it as a weapon" is pretty good as appeals to authority go.
 
The dragon won't agree to provide consistent military aid in a contract, so it's pointless to request it - there's a significant chance it'll be asleep when something happens, and it absolutely won't agree to be woken up every few decades because the dwarfs are too lazy to deal with a few hundred thousand orcs themselves.

At most, I could see us maybe negotiate that "should the dragon be awake at a time when K8P could use the help, it's services could be obtained for X preagreed rate".
 
Redshirt Army said:
The dragon won't agree to provide consistent military aid in a contract, so it's pointless to request it - there's a significant chance it'll be asleep when something happens, and it absolutely won't agree to be woken up every few decades because the dwarfs are too lazy to deal with a few hundred thousand orcs themselves.

At most, I could see us maybe negotiate that "should the dragon be awake at a time when K8P could use the help, it's services could be obtained for X preagreed rate".
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Then there is no point in having a dragon.
We would just be accepting that we are too weak and afraid to fight him, so we will pay him and swear to him for the privilege of it not killing us.

Fuck that, I say we kill the lizard for reagents.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Holy shit, we're going to finish reclaiming Karak Eight Peaks while Belegar's away.
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One hell of a portfolio if we ever seeks a new employment eh?
BungieONI said:
I'll just leave this here.
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You know.. i wonder why we dont to the x-com shit when theres backlog on our research papers.

Hire more scientist/mage.

Pay them a reasonable amount but claim a portion of the glory like a commersial research lab or pharmaceutical company would. This is to get around accusation of trying to build a rival college.

Its hinted that she got access to Cathay's paper, so maybe a publishing house is also possible.
 
das_slash said:
Then there is no point in having a dragon.
We would just be accepting that we are too weak and afraid to fight him, so we will pay him and swear to him for the privilege of it not killing us.

Fuck that, I say we kill the lizard for reagents.
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To be clear: you're talking about murdering a person so you can take their stuff and use their corpse for parts.

Like, if it attacks us, that's one thing, or if there are grudges against it that it refuses to resolve that's another thing, but assuming neither of those hold, attacking it is unconscionable (and also stupid, given the number of dwarves that will surely die).
 
picklepikkl said:
To be clear: you're talking about murdering a person so you can take their stuff and use their corpse for parts.

Like, if it attacks us, that's one thing, or if there are grudges against it that it refuses to resolve that's another thing, but assuming neither of those hold, attacking it is unconscionable (and also stupid, given the number of dwarves that will surely die).
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Well, if we are going to humanize things, that person just committed genocide, and there is a good chance we are next.
 
Redshirt Army said:
The dragon won't agree to provide consistent military aid in a contract, so it's pointless to request it - there's a significant chance it'll be asleep when something happens, and it absolutely won't agree to be woken up every few decades because the dwarfs are too lazy to deal with a few hundred thousand orcs themselves.

At most, I could see us maybe negotiate that "should the dragon be awake at a time when K8P could use the help, it's services could be obtained for X preagreed rate".
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look, mate, I know you worked on it, but is ridiculous. no one would ever agree to it.
 
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