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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BeepSmile said:
@ Quest there is also the "the person talking to me has been lied to themselves" answer, which is a big issue.

Our lies must be within the bounds of what target believes is possible (othereise they go "they are mad/incorrect, but do believe what they are saying")
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Let me back up a moment then. I think I'm getting lost in the semantics. My basic stance against the argument that "they will not believe us, only that we believe it" is that it takes away a lot of this nuance from the situation. It's an argument against the Deciever that assumes we will use it as a hammer rather than the scalpel it is and completely invalidates it's usefulness.
 
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torac said:
Surely you mean "little brother"? Also, I find the transition from "very close friends and co-workes, close enough to engender feeling like sort-of family" to "married couple" less creepy than "Inexperienced apprentice we take care of for her father whom we are a mythic figure to" to "lovers".

There's a lovely contrast between Anton and Mathilde. Likewise, Mathilde can also feel relaxed enough to show her own silly / whimsical / defenseless side to him. Combining Mathilde's rare defenseless side and Anton's rare competent/serious side allows a stark contrast while still engaging with each other on the same level.

I cannot see Roswita as an equal partner to Mathilde. I could see Anton there.

That said, I'm fine with no partner at all. Romance is completely optional here. It's just that of the available options, I can only see Anton as a viable option.
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Auto correct is a terrible thing, that should have read sees her as a little sister.

Also Roswita is anything but inexperienced at this point, she's better than her father in quite a few areas looking at their character sheets.

As for the whole equal partner argument my view point is pretty much the exact opposite Anton is so naive and innocent I don't see how he could ever be an equal partner to Mathilde, Roswita on the other hand has been running a war for years now and aware of how the world really is.

Out of all the options right now Roswita is probably the only one I can see ever reaching the point where they're equal partners... I could maybe see Johan but he's not all that interesting in my opinion.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Yes, but it will make him more likely to just feed us convenient lies rather than the truth.
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Not necessarily, Mathilde would not be his patsy, but one belonging to his God. Lying to such a well placed asset in a position to work against the treacherous Mors might impede the plans of the great Horned Rat and since she does belong to the Horned Rat there is no real danger she would hand the knwolege to the foolish dwarfs yes-yes.
 
Katahiraga said:
Why not try to use some of the gold to start a few businesses, earn more money use it to improve the common peasantry, get richer and improve and upgrade our fief, it is Mathilde's responsibility
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She did.

Hence the cheese press, the woolen weaver, and other boring but vital sundries that her fief need that she spends on it.

All in all, the fact that those fief exist only as a reason to be a Dame is its greatest advantage.

If we invest too much money and things and get attached to it like we do now at k8p, once an enemy with enough beef tries to get to her through them, that village is dead.

Now.. its been made very clear that Mathilda have taxing rights on that village, but no emotional attachment. If they want to destroy anyhing of value of hers, try assaulting a karak.
 
That said, using a divine artifact of ranald to convince a devout HR follower that you are a fellow of his might draw the Rat's attention and smiting arm.
 
I mean, if you are going to go wild with the Deciever options, there is one that is both obvious and near impossible without the Deciever.
@BoneyM Have a taste of Deceiver use:

"See Moulder is a distant problem. The beasts you sell, less so, but Moulder itself? Now that they have been driven from the Eight Peaks, you are a long way from home, and with no friends. How do you think the other clans would welcome you, with your failure? But...

"Everyone and everything has a price. Even failure, even your life. They question you should really ask yourself is simple: What are you willing to trade? Because here's the thing, I'm not terribly well inclined to Skaven, but for something valuable enough? Getting you out of here and to whatever border of the Empire you want to go is an option, if you make it worth my while. After all, you're just one Skaven, even if a well learned one."

"You know who I am; Eshin-clan. You know I can get you out of here. I will get you out of here, if, you make it worth my while. Hells, Moulder are traders at heart. In beasts usually, but information has value of it's own. Perhaps, with such a friendly opening trade, we might establish a more permanent and lucrative arrangement, for both sides. Repeat customers mean more wealth for everyone, after all. And hells, you might return home with news or treasures good enough to wipe away your failure here. After all, Moulder is but one clan. And even after the traitors are dealt with, there will still be other rivals, no?"

"Of course, for repeat trades first you'd have to prove that some rat won't stab you the moment you return. A deal struck with a dead merchant isn't worth much, is it? "

*********
The most valuable thing you can promise a Skaven, is their own life. A promise that you will help them escape/release them, or even transport them far from the place where all are their enemies, and then free them, is a valuable, valuable thing indeed. Being able to negotiate the price of that release, look him in the eye and tell him you will free him, and have him believe it? That is a powerful hook to use in any interrogation.
 
Sinsystems said:
So has the vote been closed?
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No.

Andres110 said:
@BoneyM any reason to make a staff instead of a wand? A wand sounds pretty good since it's more compact.
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Significantly more difficult for the same effect.

primemountain said:
I mean, if you are going to go wild with the Deciever options, there is one that is both obvious and near impossible without the Deciever.
@BoneyM Have a taste of Deceiver use:

"See Moulder is a distant problem. The beasts you sell, less so, but Moulder itself? Now that they have been driven from the Eight Peaks, you are a long way from home, and with no friends. How do you think the other clans would welcome you, with your failure? But...

"Everyone and everything has a price. Even failure, even your life. They question you should really ask yourself is simple: What are you willing to trade? Because here's the thing, I'm not terribly well inclined to Skaven, but for something valuable enough? Getting you out of here and to whatever border of the Empire you want to go is an option, if you make it worth my while. After all, you're just one Skaven, even if a well learned one."

"You know who I am; Eshin-clan. You know I can get you out of here. I will get you out of here, if, you make it worth my while. Hells, Moulder are traders at heart. In beasts usually, but information has value of it's own. Perhaps, with such a friendly opening trade, we might establish a more permanent and lucrative arrangement, for both sides. Repeat customers mean more wealth for everyone, after all. And hells, you might return home with news or treasures good enough to wipe away your failure here. After all, Moulder is but one clan. And even after the traitors are dealt with, there will still be other rivals, no?"

"Of course, for repeat trades first you'd have to prove that some rat won't stab you the moment you return. A deal struck with a dead merchant isn't worth much, is it? "

*********
The most valuable thing you can promise a Skaven, is their own life. A promise that you will help them escape/release them, or even transport them far from the place where all are their enemies, and then free them, is a valuable, valuable thing indeed. Being able to negotiate the price of that release, look him in the eye and tell him you will free him, and have him believe it? That is a powerful hook to use in any interrogation.
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Convincing him that not just continued life but freedom is a possibility may very well increase his level of cooperation, but it does start a clock ticking down to the point where you have to either follow through or sour any accumulated goodwill.
 
primemountain said:
The most valuable thing you can promise a Skaven, is their own life. A promise that you will help them escape/release them, or even transport them far from the place where all are their enemies, and then free them, is a valuable, valuable thing indeed. Being able to negotiate the price of that release, look him in the eye and tell him you will free him, and have him believe it? That is a powerful hook to use in any interrogation.
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Best used last. Or they'd just conclude we're arbitrary
 
NavySeel said:
I'm slightly confused about people apparently being weirded out by the idea of Mathilde being attracted to someone related to someone else she was attracted to, yet there also being a decent portion of people who want to go for Johann who's gold body weirds me out much more in that sense.
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Something to remember is that Johann isn't literally made of gold. It's golden coloured, but he's made of conceptually perfected flesh and bone more than he is metal.
 
veekie said:
Claiming to be a devotee of a god usually gets their attention anyways
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I'd bet active divine magic use also happening would magnify the attention.

primemountain said:
I mean, if you are going to go wild with the Deciever options, there is one that is both obvious and near impossible without the Deciever.
@BoneyM Have a taste of Deceiver use:

"See Moulder is a distant problem. The beasts you sell, less so, but Moulder itself? Now that they have been driven from the Eight Peaks, you are a long way from home, and with no friends. How do you think the other clans would welcome you, with your failure? But...

"Everyone and everything has a price. Even failure, even your life. They question you should really ask yourself is simple: What are you willing to trade? Because here's the thing, I'm not terribly well inclined to Skaven, but for something valuable enough? Getting you out of here and to whatever border of the Empire you want to go is an option, if you make it worth my while. After all, you're just one Skaven, even if a well learned one."

"You know who I am; Eshin-clan. You know I can get you out of here. I will get you out of here, if, you make it worth my while. Hells, Moulder are traders at heart. In beasts usually, but information has value of it's own. Perhaps, with such a friendly opening trade, we might establish a more permanent and lucrative arrangement, for both sides. Repeat customers mean more wealth for everyone, after all. And hells, you might return home with news or treasures good enough to wipe away your failure here. After all, Moulder is but one clan. And even after the traitors are dealt with, there will still be other rivals, no?"

"Of course, for repeat trades first you'd have to prove that some rat won't stab you the moment you return. A deal struck with a dead merchant isn't worth much, is it? "

*********
The most valuable thing you can promise a Skaven, is their own life. A promise that you will help them escape/release them, or even transport them far from the place where all are their enemies, and then free them, is a valuable, valuable thing indeed. Being able to negotiate the price of that release, look him in the eye and tell him you will free him, and have him believe it? That is a powerful hook to use in any interrogation.
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That's the thing with the coin, it would make him think we believed our own words; but we could have just been lied to by a superior.
 
BoneyM said:
Convincing him that not just continued life but freedom is a possibility may very well increase his level of cooperation, but it does start a clock ticking down to the point where you have to either follow through or sour any accumulated goodwill.
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We'd be better off tying his freedom to a specific goal then, like a translation.

...You know, when we're done, we could just Mindhole him and start over on a new topic. Or hand him over to the Grey College.
 
Quest said:
Let me back up a moment then. I think I'm getting lost in the semantics. My basic stance against the argument that "they will not believe us, only that we believe it" is that it takes away a lot of this nuance from the situation. It's an argument against the Deciever that assumes we will use it as a hammer rather than the scalpel it is and completely invalidates it's usefulness.
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I do not have a recollection of that argument being made. Maybe there is context missing?

How about

"The deciver does not make them believe that we are telling the truth. It makes them believe that we believe we are telling the truth"

As has been explained before. How this relates to your scaple/hammer thing I don't understand, as I do not understand how your metaphor applies.

Uh, have hammer, wield with care, maybe?
 
Andres110 said:
I'd like to make a wand so that we still have a back slot available for a rifle.
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I maintain my previous stance on using a rifle - the comparative advantage it offers over our revolvers and Shadow Knives is not worth the multiple training actions we'd need to invest into it. Just get a staff.
Andmeuths said:
If we can't get that translation out of him, we can hand him over to the Grey College.
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Even if we do succeed, we can ask if they want to try and get anything specific out of the guy themselves.
 
Andres110 said:
Convincing him that not just continued life but freedom is a possibility may very well increase his level of cooperation, but it does start a clock ticking down to the point where you have to either follow through or sour any accumulated goodwill.
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Or a mindhole. That's sort of fits "souring goodwill", I guess.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
We'd be better off tying his freedom to a specific goal then, like a translation.

...You know, when we're done, we could just Mindhole him and start over on a new topic. Or hand him over to the Grey College.
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Mindhole is good to have up our sleeves, but if we use it on him it'll probably have his memory default to "in moulder cage --> in dwarf cell" with nothing in the middle; not something particularly conducive to good information gathering, as he'd probably freak the hell out, maybe figure out there's been shenanigans.
 
If we do want to gain our prisoner trust, I think a good step is making him believe that he being hunted down by his brethren. Have him believe that Moulder consider him a traitor and that Eshin consider him as something that needs to be remove immediately. Have sounds of battle with skaven scent near his cell to make him believe that they are trying to kill him. Tell him that if he ever gets out, he will be surrounded by enemies in the form of dwarves and his own kins. Assure him that no matter what happens, we will protect him. Play with his fear and distrust, make Mathilde seem like a saint and his only saviour. Make him dependent on Mathilde and slowly make him believe that the only thing he can rely on is Mathilde. Basically, gaslighting him into believing that everyone is his enemy except for Mathilde.
 
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