Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?
 
This is absolutely the wrong question to be asking and making a huge number of assumptions. For one thing, we own the EIC body and soul pretty much, we can direct it, modify it, and access it's internal channels at our convenience. The Cult of Verena is not our creature by any means, is never going to be, and has other priorities than catering to our whim.
What does all of this have to do with what I asked? Are you denying that that the breadth and influence I described the Cult of Verena having is wrong? I never said "We will own the cult of Verena." I said, "This is an idea of what the Cult of Verena is."
Furthermore- the ultimate question you should be asking in this case- what does the Cult offer that the EIC and our Dwarf contacts don't? Tilea and Estalia? We can't even read those languages. Their knowledge base in this case is the obscurities I'm vaguely considering, their grasp of Justice is at best irrelevant to our situation or actively counterproductive considering we are a secret police officer.
Tilea, Estalia, Bretonnia, Ulthuan, Karaz Ankor, Magic, The Empire, The Cults and various other sources of knowledge that we have absolutely no access to. When you have to ask yourself what a centuries old divine cult with a fanatical obsession to preserving knowledge can offer us in terms of books, you've lost me. You're comparing this organisation which is spread throughout the old world to the Karaz Ankor which is a single polity and the EIC which is just a trading company based in and around Stirland. They have the contacts to get the books we can't and they have been developing these contacts for thousands of years. We may match or surpass them in books taken from the Dwarven Empire and maybe the college (doubtful), but in everything else they have better sources than ours.
In any case- the Cult of Verena, like any other endeavor is going to give us results proportional to what we put in it. Do we need to invest those resources right now? What do we need from them as opposed to what might we get from them? The fundamental assumption you are making that the Verenans can get us things we can't get elsewhere is something I don't really agree with in the slightest. Because even if they do have exclusive information, we can just hire Ranaldites to get it for us no AP required. At this point your misguided attempts to hype the Cult up have only soured me on anything they bring to the table.
Yes, hiring someone to rob knowledge from the cult that venerates knowledge and has a greater influence in the empire than us is definitely a great idea. What possible use could gaining favor in such an organisation have? I'll tell you. They can offer us favor that we can exchange for permanent bonuses to certain rolls. They are a powerful political entity that having a good reputation with will help with our career and any future politics.

And what do we need to do for all of this? Spend an action or two to let them copy books from our rather extensive library.

I am not trying to hype up the cult. You are the one who's completely downplaying it.
 
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?

How about we don't pursue this line of thought?
 
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?

No. No Grey Magister, or any other kind of Magister, is above the Articles.

Edit: The Vow of Poverty is specifically for the Greys, but that just makes it worse.
 
Last edited:
This does also mean that divine marks are also mutations. No one will ever call them by that name in-universe though. In this case books on mutations would likely be data on Chaotic mutations because that's probably the closest we can get to a general "Aethyric/Unreal Energy Mutations" subject.

I'm pretty sure the High Elves would cheerfully call them that, all the while chuckling about human superstitions behind a delicately upraised hand.
 
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?
Not strictly speaking. We're already kind of... bending the Vow, but as long as we do it in the approved ways and don't try to hide our windfalls, it shouldn't be a problem. (Until and unless someone with an axe to grind decides to make it a problem, perhaps? I'm not confident on that score.)

However this is certain- Obtain the wrong wealth, or pursue great wealth, or obtain it the wrong way, or use it in the wrong way... as as the Bursar puts it, those loopholes become nooses.
 
Last edited:
While I'm somewhat inclined to agree in this specific instance, I would like to point out that posts like these are far more likely to motivate spite-votes in favor of Roswita than they are to engender actual support.
Meh. Still dislike having anything more to do with the Stirlandian Elector Count. I rate it at equally low level of interest to 'investigating what happened to the old Empress', ie things I dont see have anything to do with Mathilde at all.

Dont get me wrong, I'm fine with Roswita as a peripheral character to Mathilde's aquaintances, I just see no reason to further interact with her specifically at all.

There are so many other more interesting characters and 'reason to interact with' choices to choose from.
 
Not strictly speaking. We're already kind of... bending the Vow, but as long as we do it in the approved ways and don't try to hide our windfalls, it shouldn't be a problem.

Obtain the wrong wealth, or obtain it the wrong way, or use it in the wrong way... as as the Bursar puts it, those loopholes become nooses.

There is also the matter of getting caught, not that we should hide something as mundane as money from the Grey College, but it bears remembering that the Grey College are not all-knowing the the doings of one Mathilde Weber as a certain book can attest.
 
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?

Well Mathilde has probably got enough status that she'd be sternly warned first but the Grey College isn't exactly going to give unlimited chances and using up the Great Deed to cover up for not upholding the vow would be extremely suboptimal.

The Grey College isn't going to just ignore breaches - not unless Mathilde is basically already running the place.
 
There is also the matter of getting caught, not that we should hide something as mundane as money from the Grey College, but it bears remembering that the Grey College are not all-knowing the the doings of one Mathilde Weber as a certain book can attest.
What's the behaviour your suggesting with that point? That we've not been caught yet, so let's break more rules?
Each rule we flout increases the chance of a slip up or bad luck revealing it.
At that point, I presume Grey Auditor Ninjas pour over all our deeds looking for other crimes- if the first one isn't enough to get us declared a Black Witch, stilled or worse (hello Liber).
 
I'd still be weirded out dating the kid of a person who I was attracted to for a while.
I really don't see the issue, there's actually a far smaller age gap that in Abelheim's case, she's very similar to him and has a lot of thr same traits Mathilde would have been attracted to.
 
What does all of this have to do with what I asked? Are you denying that that the breadth and influence I described the Cult of Verena having is wrong? I never said "We will own the cult of Verena." I said, "This is an idea of what the Cult of Verena is."
And I'm saying that's irrelevant. Spaghetti post or not, that doesn't change the fact I said you were misrepresenting the opportunity they offer us. They could have the means to make human high magic users and it wouldn't be relevant if we had no way of accessing it.
Tilea, Estalia, Bretonnia, Ulthuan, Karaz Ankor, Magic, The Empire, The Cults and various other sources of knowledge that we have absolutely no access to. When you have to ask yourself what a centuries old divine cult with a fanatical obsession to preserving knowledge can offer us in terms of books, you've lost me. You're comparing this organisation which is spread throughout the old world to the Karaz Ankor which is a single polity and the EIC which is just a trading company based in and around Stirland. They have the contacts to get the books we can't and they have been developing these contacts for thousands of years. We may match or surpass them in books taken from the Dwarven Empire and maybe the college (doubtful), but in everything else they have better sources than ours.
What. We already have access to the Karaz Ankor, the Empire, and magic far better than the Cult of Verena. Like why would you remotely assume they have access to magical texts the Colleges don't? You ignored my fundamental premise was that the Cult's reach only potentially opens up Tilea and Estalia and Barak Varr's markets almost certainly open up those already. And you are only weakening your argument boasting about the Verenan archives compared to the fucking Dwarfs. These are the people who have written testimony of their ancient gods openly on record, who can chronicle their history to the time long before the Cult of Verena existed where Estalia and Tilea were elven colonies.

As for why I'm equating the EIC+Barak Varr to the Cult it's because Barak Varr is the economic lynchpin of the Old World- probably more so than Marienburg. I don't even know why you think the Verenans are who we should see about Ulthuan, they might have some sources for it, but we can probably make arrangements for Asur literature when we inevitably go to Ulthuan.

It's beyond baffling why you think their repositories of knowledge eclipse the Dwarfs and only further weakens your argument.

Yes, hiring someone to rob knowledge from the cult that venerates knowledge and has a greater influence in the empire than us is definitely a great idea. What possible use could gaining favor in such an organisation have? I'll tell you. They can offer us favor that we can exchange for permanent bonuses to certain rolls. They are a powerful political entity that having a good reputation with will help with our career and any future politics.

And what do we need to do for all of this? Spend an action or two to let them copy books from our rather extensive library.

I am not trying to hype up the cult. You are the one who's completely downplaying it.
What are they going to do? No seriously lay it out for me. The Brettonians are problematic because they're impetuous enough to make it a matter of foreign policy affecting the Empire considering we're robbing their aristocratic ruling class. And I'm telling you while you are too busy fantasizing about Verenan favor, that favor takes effort to generate and we have far better means of generating favor. Furthermore- I'm talking about robbing Verenans outside the Empire. If a foreign sect of their cult is angry at us, they're going to have an incredibly difficult time making trouble for us in the Empire. To say nothing of their difficulties in actually identifying we're the ones who stole it. The Cult of Verena in the Empire is not going to make our lives any harder than the Cults of Sigmar or Ulric are- especially if we only start shit outside the Empire.

Dude, I'm not the one saying 'The Dwarfs are only one nation- they can't possibly have a knowledge base comparable to this organization- pay no heed to the 3,000 year awaited reclamation we're part of and all the clans that still identify and have records of being from Lost Holds after literal millennia'. We are serving the institution who's major problem is their institutional memory is too long and too all encompassing and you're talking hotshit about Verena?

Edit: I'm done arguing this, I've been warned about marginal behavior and this is just getting me worked up- I doubt I'll change your mind and mine is pretty made up so agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:
What's the behaviour your suggesting with that point? That we've not been caught yet, so let's break more rules?
Each rule we flout increases the chance of a slip up or bad luck revealing it.
At that point, I presume Grey Auditor Ninjas pour over all our deeds looking for other crimes- if the first one isn't enough to get us declared a Black Witch, stilled or worse (hello Liber).

I'm not actually suggesting anything, just pushing back against the implicit idea that 'of course they will find out'. If there is ever a rule we feel would benefit the K8P, the Empire or the world at large to breach then we should weigh it with the knowledge that we actually can get away with this stuff, and do good (see the paper on necromancy owed in part to the Necromantic insight of the Liber Mortis).
 
Is there any reason for Mathilde to believe that talking to a broad selection of Magisters and Magister Lords about their take on Uglu would (or wouldn't) broaden her own understanding of the Wind?

It would, but over longer periods and based on a specific topic. This is what College classes focused on different magical pursuits are.

@BoneyM - Does Branalhune have a "Sparring" setting, or is it all-kill, all the time?

It does.

Also, if it's sheathed, does it take the sheath with it when it Goes Away with the Rune of the Unknown?

No.

Hm. I have to wonder, how far would Karag Zilfin's shadow extend into the Badlands?

There's a few peaks between Zilfin and the Badlands. It'd hit some parts of it but it's not a clear shooting gallery.

ah @BoneyM, I thought you liked my Romcon options.....

At some point soon I'll have another romance vote with an Interested In General option, and if it wins I'll start adding dating options to the social turns. But by all means, if a romance-y option wins a write-in I'll go with it.

Say, there's something I've always wondered about the whole gilding process the Metal Mages do. Why do they use gold ? Wouldn't an actually useful metal be better, like steel ?

A lot of their origins are in alchemy, which considers gold an ideal and pure substance.

On a turn-sized scale factoring in the Gyrocopter for stuff like 'head back to the college and take a class' makes sense because the general idea is that we're not going to be spending more time travelling than we are learning. Once or twice a week fits in neatly with that sort of thing. But little explicit schedule based things like 'you head to Altdorf and get back every three days' do run into the problem of it taking an awful lot of flying to achieve.

The scheduling does break down if you poke at it too much, but I felt it was a lesser evil than 'College or Skaven, pick one'.

Yeah @BoneyM if there is one thing i might gripe about for this quest, it's how you've handled the fief, damn thing basically just exists to justify the very rare abuse of loopholes and not much else.

I've given the option to be more involved and it's been voted against, and I gave the option to give up even theoretical control of it and it was also voted against. The only way to actually force the issue would be 'it gets eaten by zombies because it was sad you never visited' and I'm positive that would lead to more gripes.

I... semi agree for different reasons. The current structure of the "social turns" does make us seem more like a modern businessman who flies every few weeks.

This is because we vote on them after the main turn. I think if they were chosen with the rest of the actions, they could be integrated more smoothly. Even if we had no other buisiness there, one trip a year to Stirland or Altdorf is perfectly reasonable.

If you are inclined for a bit of feedback @BoneyM, the social turns are really well written but might be better integrated if we chose them with the "major" choices. This system of extra choices for social actions with no mechanical benefits was a good one, but they do feel slightly disjointed from the rest of narrative.

Of course the other way of doing it can have disadvantages as well.

The major vote is already pushing the limits, and it gets something like half to a third of the votes that more fundamental yes/no or multiple choice votes get. If I was doing weekly updates, then we could break it down into multiple voting periods and have everything neatly line up on a calendar, but I don't think that'd be a preferred solution.

Hmm. I'd probably want to ask our fellow Grey Wizards about what the consequences and effects are, of over-using Mockery of Death on somebody. Is there no side-effect or harmful effect? Or does it risk putting them into a coma, if you keep them in a sleep for ages?

@BoneyM, does Mathilde know the answer to that question? Is it anything to worry about, or not?

The results of overuse are unpredictable but universally bad to the sanity. It's an open question whether it's Ulgu side-effects or a result of the brain being locked in place for extended periods.

Just thought of something. What sort of security measures do we have against Skaven sabotaging this rune by digging to it or similar? How much trouble would they have?

Rest assured that if Dwarves bury a giant diamond holy grandmaster-made Rune at the bottom of a mountain when there's Skaven about, they're going to take a precaution or two.

@BoneyM It is possible to build more than one variation of the shrine of Ranald? And if so, what do we need to do to build them? Simply purchasing the terrain and building it? Or do we need to wander around until we feel that our coin marks a good position?

Yes, but only one temple can be in the place where Ranald mugged Mork. Exact details of how future temples might work will come after such a temple is built.

I recognise that this is a small point, and speaks only to Mathilde's beliefs, but it's also a pet peeve of mine so I want to address it anyway: This is incorrect. Torture is never a necessary tool. It is not useful when you have some way to verify the resulting information. It is not better than nothing if you have limited time. Information of dubious provenance is not better than none. This has been studied extensively, and the results are both conclusive, and date back beyond living memory - as far back as the fifth century, people have been demonstrating that torture is not only immoral, but entirely ineffective. Torture has negative utility, period.

I don't want to clog up the thread with such an unsavoury subject, so I will say no more on the matter, but if people, @BoneyM included, are interested in discussing the topic further and checking my sources, my PM's are open.

Some things are baked into the setting. I'd hope nobody takes Mathilde's internal monologue as real-world advocacy.

Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?

Try it and find out.
 
There's a few peaks between Zilfin and the Badlands. It'd hit some parts of it but it's not a clear shooting gallery.
Hmm. Is Karak Drazh right on the edge of the mountain range? What's it's hypothetical threat range look like?

Me thinks Barak Varr, K8P, and the potential reclaimers of Black Crag might think a fully armed and operational Battle Mountain might be the order of the day.
 
Hmm. Is Karak Drazh right on the edge of the mountain range? What's it's hypothetical threat range look like?

Me thinks Barak Varr, K8P, and the potential reclaimers of Black Crag might think a fully armed and operational Battle Mountain might be the order of the day.

None of the currently-existing Karaks are on the edge of a range. Dwarves go for the larger and more impressive mountains, which tend to be further in. From memory, Ekrund and Karak Varn are the exceptions of the fallen Karaks.
 
Even if Mathilde ignores the vow if poverty, the grey college won't kill her outright, since that reason is not enough to kill her as a means of punishment and she hasn't done anything outright evil, plus she is far too useful to them alive correct, is that correct?
... Probably best not to try the limits of the Vow here
The Vow of Poverty is purposefully designed with loopholes and wiggle room as a matter of practicality, because its purpose isn't to enforce that Grey Wizards renounce their worldly possessions, it's to safeguard against the abuse of their power
If Mathilde actually ignores the Vow it means she's going beyond merely profiting off of the work she does for the Empire
It means she's actively seeking to gain wealth as a goal, above and at the expense of her duties
It means she's either crossed the line or is dangerously close to crossing the line to where her loyalty does not lie with the interests of the Empire, but to the accumulation of wealth for her own means and comfort
At that point how useful she is, how skilled and powerful, becomes a detriment not a boon, because she isn't an asset anymore she's a threat
The way the Grey College does things means that there won't be some kind of warning for behavior like that, they either trust you or they don't, and violating the Vow means they can't trust you
 
Last edited:
Why not try to use some of the gold to start a few businesses, earn more money use it to improve the common peasantry, get richer and improve and upgrade our fief, it is Mathilde's responsibility
 
Why not try to use some of the gold to start a few businesses, earn more money use it to improve the common peasantry, get richer and improve and upgrade our fief, it is Mathilde's responsibility

Yeah, no, there's a (mile wide) line between "these laws are deliberately vague, so don't push them to see where the rope ends." and "Ain't no rule says a dog can't commit mass-murder in a public place."
 
Kinda feel bad for Qrech, even if he does end up give Mathilde everything he knows, in the most positive outcome he'll most likely end being led somewhere nice-looking but discrete and get told by Mathilde to look at the flowers as she readies her revolver/summon her greatsword.
I don't think the dwarfs would like it if we used neighbouring mountains as an object lesson that "mountain" and "eternal/enduring" shouldn't use the same word.
Didn't they have written Grudges in the past against mountains for inconventiently collapsing onto top of Throngs?

While they wouldn't go out of their way against mountains who done them no wrong, especially since it would be a work of millennia, unless they live under it they don't seem to give them any special protections either.
 
Back
Top