Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Kornet]

Pretty sure that that is a preexisting case of contempt for Dhar.

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I'd argue that is neither, and it is a matter of professional pride and craftsmanship appreciation, which, while very dwarf-like, was entirely pre-existing. Mathilde's outrage at necromancers was always two-fold and was always along the lines if "you damned yourself for this? You dare to wield this horrific forbidden power of Dhar and you didn't even bother to learn to use it properly? You call that a spell? You are are a dishonor to the craft, sir."

 

[MooseHowl]

Dragomas took being a Journeyman to its ultimate extent and wandered into the Dark Lands. Many years after he was considered dead, he returned with a non-aggression pact from the Emperor of Cathay carved into a jade tablet. He was retroactively promoted to Lord Magister to grant him the authority to have negotiated it, and in the coming years he quickly rose through the Amber College in no small part because he was actually willing to engage in the politics of Altdorf. His discovery, hatching, and raising of the Imperial Dragon earned him the title of Magister Patriarch of the Amber Order, and him transforming into a Celestial Dragon in the Hall of Duels caused Alric to concede and go into a peaceful retirement. Since then, he has championed the cause of the Battle Wizards both on and off the battlefield, transforming them from a living weapon sealed up between battles to men and women respected for their sacrifice who live lives of meditation and training inside gilded cages, and considers the Imperial Zoo to be his personal hobby.

It's possible he's never worn a full outfit in his life, and according to College rumour, it was the work of many years to convince him to wear pants. He's bare from the waist up, his skin the deep brown of a lifetime in the sun, his frame small but wiry. "Algard," he says, and as always, his voice is slightly louder than the situation would call for. "What news, brother?"

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@BoneyM
BRUCE LEE!!!

You made BRUCE LEE an AMBER WIZARD and he can LITERALLY TURN INTO A DRAGON!!!!!!

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[TheWiseTomato]

The previous Empress died with child under seemingly natural causes

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I recall that happening. Was that child going to be Karl? I'm not all that familiar with the WHF timeline.

 

[BungieONI]

Considering what Mathilde has accomplished one would expect her to be a particularly strong battle wizard or even a Wizard Lord.

Instead she's used surprisingly little large scale or complex magic to get to where she is...

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I think the saying "A little Magic goes a long long way" is rather useful for Warhammer wizards to keep in mind.

 

[Kornet]

Considering what Mathilde has accomplished one would expect her to be a particularly strong battle wizard or even a Wizard Lord.

Instead she's used surprisingly little large scale or complex magic to get to where she is...

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I think that fairly typical for a Grey. They always heavily relied on their mundane skills.

 

[Katahiraga]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

 

[Quest]

So there was a lot of replies to my question and a lot of further discussion on the use of Dhar. I am rather annoyed by the people who never even read my argument and just apparently labelled me as someone who wants Math to go Black Magister. I would also like to say: "My question wasn't directed at you" but that's besides the point.

My position on her actively learning Dhar: NO. We have better things to do and it risks too much.

Reasons why we shouldn't:

1) It turns us into an oath-breaker and makes the dwarves hate us.
2) It makes the empire hate us and want to hunt us down.
3) It goes against her character. (Barring a situation similar to Van Hal's.)
4) It corrupts everyone around her because Dhar is corruptive, radioactive Uranium and hurts the things around us.

With that being said.

My argument was never about whether using Dhar was a good idea. It's absolutely not. It was just me clearing up whether it would corrupt Mathilde directly. I'm not going to bring up the quotes for this because it's been done to death already by me and others.

The metaphysical corruption of Dhar is prevented by the belt. It's not going to slowly drive us mad like it did Van Hal because he's Marie Curie experimenting with radiation without a radiation suit while we on the other hand have a dwarf-brand GM-confirmed radiation suit.

The mental effects of using Dhar is prevented by the knowledge of Dhar Manipulation which covers the theory behind using another Wind to manipulate Dhar. It prevents us from ever directly touching Dhar with our mind. Even if we do touch dhar directly once or twice, we know that Mathilde can deal with short-term use the same way she deals with Ulgu use.

People also mention metaphorical corruption. That somehow despite all of these we'll turn into cackling villains despite the previous two points. This isn't some guarantee that we'll be corrupted. This is BoneyM giving us the freedom to play the villain if we want to. Don't want to play the villain? Then don't vote for it. Don't instead jump down my throat when I'm correcting misconceptions.

Overall this means that while she absolutely shouldn't, Mathilde actually can Dhar without losing her mind. She still shouldn't because it will cause the people around her to lose their minds while both the empire and the dwarves declare us public enemy number one.

Now watch as someone ignores the nuance of my entire argument and goes "Using Dhar is bad. You shouldn't support Dhar. "

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

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I disagree with literally everything in this statement.

We don't care enough about the Empress' death, the Grey College has been implicitly involved in the Imperial family matters, they are never distracted to that extent, and we don't care about avenging people we don't know that isn't our job and that doesn't help anyone. Don't assume we're the only competent people in the Grey College or even the Empire.

 

[Kornet]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

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I think investigating that death is an extremely bad idea. Like, at all. It's either not connected to the conspiracy, and then we are wasting time. Or it is, and we are going against unspoken, but very explicit orders not to muck about the topic. Grey order loves it's need to know basis, and we were told that a) it is as classified as possible b) we do not need to know.

I think I'd just trust Regimand and Ranald that it was completed successfully.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

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You really want to solve this case huh. Why should we avenge the previous empress' death though? You state about how the situation is favorable to investigating the case, but you don't go about saying why expect to avenge someone we never meet. Should Mathilde go about avenging every death that happens?

The status quo is currently favorable to us. A Ranald worshiper is currently the Empress. This is really good for us as a Ranald worshiper. Why would we want to upset this status quo when it is helpful to us?

 

[Ganurath]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

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All that's missing is an in character reason for Mathilde to suspect that there's something amiss, what with her lacking metaknowledge, or a motive to investigate the event that lead to a devotee of Ranald becoming Empress Consort and thereby guaranteeing that the next Emperor won't be a tyrant. From a strictly IC perspective, the only way that this is a bad thing is if Ranald is secretly an aspect of Tzeentch, at which point Mathilde has much bigger concerns.

 

[TimEd]

Now is the right time to investigate the empress death, we have a lead, the witch hunters under Val contacts who found out about the black mail, the list made by Val Abelhelm's contacts, the grey order. The empress' deaths and by extension Karl Franz unborn son, could be avenged or something,

The grey order should be distracted by the vampires, and Mathilde is good at her job, when combined with the coin, it would she'd light.

Gabrielle and the witch hunters are the living links to this unsolved case.

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But WHY? Mathilde has NOTHING related to that case. Leave that problem to others to deal with. The Grey werent even able to tell us that there was something to hide regarding this case. Thats how far away from Mathilde's responsibility this is.

This is just showcasing the worst aspect of protagonist syndrome.

 

[Kornet]

All that's missing is an in character reason for Mathilde to suspect that there's something amiss, what with her lacking metaknowledge, or a motive to investigate the event that lead to a devotee of Ranald becoming Empress Consort and thereby guaranteeing that the next Emperor won't be a tyrant. From a strictly IC perspective, the only way that this is a bad thing is if Ranald is secretly an aspect of Tzeentch, at which point Mathilde has much bigger concerns.

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Playing the devil's advocate:
a) Mathilde has always suspected the death of the Empress was connected to the conspiracy.
b) Countess Gabrielle was on the list Mathilde handed to Regimand, and disappeared during conspiracy purges, presumed to be purged.
C) Countess Gabrielle suddenly became the Empress.


The whole situation is as fishy as Marienburg's market.

 

[thepsyborg]

I recall that happening. Was that child going to be Karl? I'm not all that familiar with the WHF timeline.

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No. Canon Karl Franz was born in 2470, the same year the quest started. The empress died pregnant in...2477 or '78? I forget exactly. At any rate, Karl Franz was already Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-FilmQuest at quest start, and to suggest the hypothetical unborn child could have been him is wishful thinking of the highest and most fanciful order.

Clearly the solution is to have the dwarves create a rune to do the 2nd Secret!

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That has been suggested. If possible, it would be highly effective. It might or might not be possible, and the only real way to find out is for a Runesmith to have it explained to him in as much detail as possible without killing whoever's trying to explain it where they stand, and then spend an uncertain amount of time poking dhar with runes in various ways to see if it works. The likelihood of any sufficiently skilled Runesmith being willing to even attempt this is...low.

 

[vsh]

But WHY? Mathilde has NOTHING related to that case. Leave that problem to others to deal with. The Grey werent even able to tell us that there was something to hide regarding this case. Thats how far away from Mathilde's responsibility this is.

This is just showcasing the worst aspect of protagonist syndrome.

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Nothing related to the case? It was a conspiracy that literally shaped our life for almost a decade and we still don't know what it was exactly and whether it's done for or merely hiding better. A giant plot hook a whole quest plot is hanging on, you know.

 

[Omegahugger]

So... Are we sure that Gabriela is an actual human being and not just Ranald wearing a wig? Because honestly this sounds like the kind of shit you need to be Ranald to pull off.

Look straight at Chaos. Nobody even makes jokes about becoming chaotic, because it's so grim and evil that it's just boring. It's literally the de facto and de jure corruption faction of the setting, but nobody in the thread has given it a serious first glance, much less a second, because there's simply nothing we could ever get from it. It fails instantly at every narrative point it's supposed to hit.

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I know that every time the word "nobody" is used in thread, it comes with a giant Omegahugger-shaped asterisk, but I feel the need to point out this pre-hiatus post.

Honestly, if one of the four had showed up and offered to heal Van Hal, I would've gone for it. Though I suppose that isn't too surprising for a Dhar voter.

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Like I said earlier, in my tunnelvision to get Abel back I may have made some poorly phrased comments.

Also, I found this gem in the same post.

... Honestly, part of me wishes we had convinced miss not-a-vampire to join us, just so we could recieve an offer of vampirisation to save him. Yes, I am that desperate.

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No, past-Omegahugger. That would not have helped us at all.

Lady must have ovaries of solid warpstone with the magic she keeps pulling...

 

[primemountain]

Uhhh, @BoneyM Is this thing cannon?

Banish Undead
Casting Number: 26
Casting Time: Full action
Ingredient: A vial of blessed water (+3)
Description: You create a magical vortex within 48 yards (24 squares)
that sucks energy from the Undead. Use the large template.
Those Undead affected take a Damage 5 hit, unless they are
Skeletons or Zombies, which are instantly destroyed instead.

I think that casting number would put it squarely in the Fiendishly Complex rating. But. It's not battle magic. And it is a 100meter diameter vortex that instant kills skeletons and zombies. That said, it is a necromancy spell. I'm just not sure if it is cannon to the quest.

At a guess, comparing this to the Second Secret, using this makes you look more like a Necromancer (it is a Necromancy spell) but is less likely to leak the First Secret of Dhar.

A hundred meter diameter circle is probably more than enough to kill a couple of squads of undead chaff. Hell, it could evaporate part of an undead army. But this is real necromancy, so I'm not sure where to rank it compared to Second Secret usage, with everything we know about Dhar and the gear Mat has.

Second Secret is a "There is an Undead Apocalypse". Hopefully we just stopped that, so we won't need to use it if the Dead from the Sands don't march on Karag Eight Peaks. Or one of the other Karags, and Belegar sends us to help.

But this Banish Undead thing sounds like the kind of thing you might be able to study the theory of, and try and work out how an Amethyst (Shyish) mage might cast a variant of it. Or did someone already do that, and that's how Wind of Death was invented?

Huh. Now that I think about it, this sounds like it has stuff in common with Pit of Shades as well.

EDIT: That blessed water bit makes me thing maybe this thing is Necromancy in name only. Not likely, but hey, maybe it's less evil Necromancy? I kid, I kid.

 

[Kornet]

Uhhh, @BoneyM Is this thing cannon?

Banish Undead
Casting Number: 26
Casting Time: Full action
Ingredient: A vial of blessed water (+3)
Description: You create a magical vortex within 48 yards (24 squares)
that sucks energy from the Undead. Use the large template.
Those Undead affected take a Damage 5 hit, unless they are
Skeletons or Zombies, which are instantly destroyed instead.

I think that casting number would put it squarely in the Fiendishly Complex rating. But. It's not battle magic. And it is a 100meter diameter vortex that instant kills skeletons and zombies. That said, it is a necromancy spell. I'm just not sure if it is cannon to the quest.

At a guess, comparing this to the Second Secret, using this makes you look more like a Necromancer (it is a Necromancy spell) but is less likely to leak the First Secret of Dhar.

A hundred meter diameter circle is probably more than enough to kill a couple of squads of undead chaff. Hell, it could evaporate part of an undead army. But this is real necromancy, so I'm not sure where to rank it compared to Second Secret usage, with everything we know about Dhar and the gear Mat has.

Second Secret is a "There is an Undead Apocalypse". Hopefully we just stopped that, so we won't need to use it if the Dead from the Sands don't march on Karag Eight Peaks. Or one of the other Karags, and Belegar sends us to help.

But this Banish Undead thing sounds like the kind of thing you might be able to study the theory of, and try and work out how an Amethyst (Shyish) mage might cast a variant of it. Or did someone already do that, and that's how Wind of Death was invented?

Huh. Now that I think about it, this sounds like it has stuff in common with Pit of Shades as well.

EDIT: That blessed water bit makes me thing maybe this thing is Necromancy in name only. Not likely, but hey, maybe it's less evil Necromancy? I kid, I kid.

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If we didn't gank the necromancy college, we could have bought it in item form!

...and then disapprove of it's shoddy construction and throw it into mount Doom from a gyrocopter.

 

[pucflek]

TFW Karl Franz is a Ranald plot.

 

[TimEd]

Nothing related to the case? It was a conspiracy that literally shaped our life for almost a decade and we still don't know what it was exactly and whether it's done for or merely hiding better. A giant plot hook a whole quest plot is hanging on, you know.

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You know what else 'literally shaped our life for almost a decade' and is 'A giant plot hook' with us still knowing NOTHING about what is happening?

THE QUARREL BETWEEN NORDLAND AND MIDDLAND

And are we doing anything about that? No! We have just as much to do with that tangle of politics as we do about a conspiracy which we are completely unconnected to.

Both are the results of rolls unrelated to us. The Politics due to quite a bit of failed rolls asking for reinforcements and their 'result' and the Conspiracy due to a Nat 1 along with (I assume) a few other discrete rolls.

 

[Katahiraga]

All that's missing is an in character reason for Mathilde to suspect that there's something amiss, what with her lacking metaknowledge, or a motive to investigate the event that lead to a devotee of Ranald becoming Empress Consort and thereby guaranteeing that the next Emperor won't be a tyrant. From a strictly IC perspective, the only way that this is a bad thing is if Ranald is secretly an aspect of Tzeentch, at which point Mathilde has much bigger concerns.

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It's a matter of her honor or professional pride I supposed, it's one of the few times Mathilde has actually fail and is out of her depth, at the hat time Mathilde will blindly trust her closest allies,

Now, the badass spy agent Mathilde, uses logic evidence, she actually investigates get evidence, know who the players are on the board, who the enemies are, how beat to crush them.

Besides failing to save Abelhelm Val, the closest failure to outright failure is that her, actions led to the Empress death, something she as a grey wizard not only failed to prevent, but might I directly be responsible for, and currently she is no closer to being on top of things and has no idea what's going on, when Gabriella who the grey order might or might not be after is supposedly on the list of people to kill. She blindly gave the list to her master without investigating first, but then again she wasn't a badass spy, master of disguise and cloak and dagger ninja wizard yet, so that may be excused.

Besides that failure is the mysterious death of the Patriarch, which again Mathilde was not able to influenced, not even resolve in the aftermath.

So her in character reason to go after the conspiracy is to atone for her incompetence or lack of strength which got the empress killed, and left her in the dark, then there is her pride, this is one of the few failures she has on her record as a grey wizard, and she has a chance to do her duty and eraed that stain of failure on her mostly spotless winning streak of be grey wizard accomplishments

 

[Hex123]

TFW Karl Franz is a Ranald plot.

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Will Tzeentch sue for copyright infringement?

 

[Kornet]

TFW Karl Franz is a Ranald plot.

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Honestly, I'm hyped about the idea if a guile hero as the Emperor. It should be most entertaining.

Hell, it should be entertaining even in prince form. The Prince and and the pauper, anyone?

 

[TimEd]

It's a matter of her honor or professional pride I supposed, it's one of the few times Mathilde has actually fail and is out of her depth, at the hat time Mathilde will blindly trust her closest allies,

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She had NOTHING to do with that plot aside from give a list of names to Regimand.

Its like blaming a courier for War breaking out betweeen two nations. Sure, said courier tried (and was sucessful) in helping in a minor part of the plot, but obviously the courier was too far removed to influence the greater machinations regarding said Major Event.

It would be sheer madness for that Courier to blame themself for somehow causing said War.

 

[Kornet]

It's a matter of her honor or professional pride I supposed, it's one of the few times Mathilde has actually fail and is out of her depth, at the hat time Mathilde will blindly trust her closest allies,

Now, the badass spy agent Mathilde, uses logic evidence, she actually investigates get evidence, know who the players are on the board, who the enemies are, how beat to crush them.

Besides failing to save Abelhelm Val, the closest failure to outright failure is that her, actions led to the Empress death, something she as a grey wizard not only failed to prevent, but might I directly be responsible for, and currently she is no closer to being on top of things and has no idea what's going on, when Gabriella who the grey order might or might not be after is supposedly on the list of people to kill. She blindly gave the list to her master without investigating first, but then again she wasn't a badass spy, master of disguise and cloak and dagger ninja wizard yet, so that may be excused.

Besides that failure is the mysterious death of the Patriarch, which again Mathilde was not able to influenced, not even resolve in the aftermath.

So her in character reason to go after the conspiracy is to atone for her incompetence or lack of strength which got the empress killed, and left her in the dark, then there is her pride, this is one of the few failures she has on her record as a grey wizard, and she has a chance to do her duty and eraed that stain of failure on her mostly spotless winning streak of be grey wizard accomplishments

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What failure? What incompetence? What atonement?

This operation was a smashing sucess.

As a field agent, Math provided her handler critical intel, allowing for a large enemy network to be apprehenfed, and also played a small part (assigned by her handler) in dismantling it. She did not get a full view of the operation because of infosec and said information being not needed for her part in the op.

Mission complete with flying colours.

Now, fishing for most classified state secrets out of curiosity? That is the kind of behaviour which gets you a shadowchisel in the back of your neck, and rightly so.