notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Maybe we can make some headway in our papers!
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
It just sort of happens as points occur to people, or erroneous statements are made that people feel need correcting (like whether or not the Second Secret is a serious spell of Dhar). It doesn't need to happen at any point in time, but discussion is the point of the thread, so it might as well.
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Gabriella died in '62, according to Alkhademic, so it's more likely that Heidi took over the imposter position from someone else. Either a fellow priestess of Ranald or her mother, depending on whether or not her claim of being a Haupt-Anderssen is true.
We, the players, never saw the full list, nevermind the names that weren't on it learned by interrogating those that were.
I want to say Blackfire Pass, but we don't know the canon date that Marius Leitdorf became their Elector Count. If he's in charge... Well, it's not without good reason he was called the Mad Count.
Konstantin von Liebwitz, in this case, father of evidence that Karl Franz had terrible taste in childhood friends.Summary: The Electors are useless as expected.
Pretty sure that that is a preexisting case of contempt for Dhar.
Might be safer in a Skaven community disguised as a slave passing beneath notice than as a fellow Skaven who's unfamiliar, and therefore possibly a spy for a rival.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly your first point of "to ensure we never fall" by itself is one I completely agree with, because I don't think it'd actually be fun or beneficial in any manner in universe or out for her to fall for any reason. It is, to use an analogy from a series we love to reference a lot, like Gandalf using the One Ring: He could do great good, for a time, but it would be a terrible awe inspiring kind of good and to quote Tolkein.
Furthermore going by her reaction to the Necromantic College, she hates Dhar users enough that actively choosing to take the next step and wield Dhar and unequivocally not even on a technicallity but full on be a Black Magister would wreck her self image. And I'll fully acknowledge that if anyone found out what we've already done it'd be pretty horrific.
However, I have issues with taking that transformative of a character move as using the Second is even in scenarios of immense pressure due to the kind of stories I like. I'm not sure how much the thread shares that opinion but some seems reasonable without being presumptive.
For what its worth, I initially thought that I had no scenario that'd make me okay with using it but thinking about this post made me realize one. The only situation where I can see myself voting for it is if the Empire is already dead, for the sake of Vengeance, as the dwarves frame it. And at that point it either doesn't matter if she studies it to use Dhar with Ulgu or just uses because by that point she'll be operating on a world so messed up and dead she probably has time either way to really contemplate how to go about that Vengeance; or its not a situation I have to worry about because she is extremely likely to die in the lead up to the end point of the Empire being already dead.
I.e on the back of her basically going her equivalent of Slayer. Which is pretty depressing I'll admit.
Related to all of this, its like that point I've brought up before. When you look at Mathilde's character sheet, and then ponder what she's done with all those numbers and bullet points its kinda joyously simple to realize that she's terrifyingly powerful as a Grey Magister. This would, like Gandalf, make her a terrifyingly powerful Black Magister. But I sit here thinking about the nuances of Dhar use and I'm realizing she doesn't need it or need to subject herself to using it or subject the world to it simply because she is powerful enough to impose her will... to, reach beyond herself and affect the world in good ways more than a tiny peasant mom in the Stirland backwoods ever could dream of.
An example; an elder vampire leading an army of terrible undead can be decapitated by her instead of using the Second Secret. Both options are possible, one is harder to actually achieve. But she has options that involve not using what she learned in the Liber Mortis beyond Necromantic Insight, which is the only thing we can point at as fully fitting with College doctrines.
And I've come to the opinion that with how her power is structuring itself over time, there won't come a time where she actually needs to use it because every single other option is gone barring the Vengeance scenario. The specific reasons I think this is how we've gone about leveraging our friends, favors, what happened in the Necromantic College and what theoretical options we have in Vitae and Ranald Shenanigans/Theurgy.
I, fundamentally, do not see the need. In my mind it sits buried under all other paths of improving our ability to do good in the world, and I mean that all with all possible respect as a summary of I guess what I see as the most accessible facet of my point for other people.
However with all that said this line of thought as outlined above has issues with your second obligation where you describe how it reaches out beyond her, in an attempt to get us to consider it from a nuanced perspective. I have been for quite some time, which is how I reached this perspective I'm sharing right now. So, it being used as a qualifier as your first point looks, to use the common metaphor here, like willingly taking a step down the mountain slope when we don't need to and won't need to outside of my worst imaginings and can spend our time on things that make our worst imaginings less likely to happen.
As I describe in my post here, the strategic implications of applying the Second Secret are ruinous in a way that doesn't incline me to actually examining because I feel that I have a good enough picture of the potential consequences that it sinks to the bottom of the priority pole.
Or to phrase it using some of your words, I think after evaluating it that to get the utmost benefit is to spend time on things that I think are genuinely more effective for less cost. Or in the case of Theurgy, unknown costs that from my read of Ranald wouldn't be Black Magic since he isn't a proscribed god. And I don't see an issue with that, because I don't think you have to use everything you find to do good in this world, manifestly so with the Torc and this entire section with Sylvania.
Or even more simply, our... approach to Panoramia. We could have thoroughly berated her for her stupidity or otherwise punished her, because she absolutely was stupid with what she did, far more than we did. Instead we didn't, and improvement and good manifested from it.
And like... yeah. At this point I see this topic as a way to debate philosophy, which is far less stressful I can say that much.
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- Location
- Philippines
The conspiracy is related to the empress death, and our order may or may not have been responsible, and Gabriella might or might not be in the order's kill list, and so far Mathilde still knows nothing.
Seriously she did a lousy job at the conspiracy compared to the current her who spies successfully on vampires, killed a vampire, stole from a Ork God, disrupted the skavens goblin alliance and more.
Mathilde if possible would not rely on blind trust, especially when blind trust involves killing a bunch of people who are no more guilty than the grey order of doing the same thing, now she has a chance to get answers especially with the coin. The emperor's wife died, and Mathilde is in position to know how and why she died.
The Patriarch's party went back down and mysteriously disappeared.
You don't want to correct this mess up , of hers, when she was just a amateur, the current her should be able to succeed and find out the truth of the Empress potential murder.
Not to mention, Karl Franz was never born due to the empress dying. So it's worth investigating. The emperor is trusting people who might have killed his wife and son.
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- Location
- Australia
I think you focused too much on the dwarfs' respect for duty over greed. They'd be sympathetic because if they were in the same position, they too wouldn't want to miss out on taking home dragon bones, because dragon bones are hella cool to the dwarves too.
Drachenfels - 1d4chan
- Location
- his hidden lair
A bit of a wall of text so forgive me if I don't reply or try and debate everything. You've reasoned your stance out, acknowledged my opinion and defined the lengths you're willing to go- that's all I can ask. I suppose my contention is mostly aimed at the people who insist never means never- and that's because while there an absolute ton of good we can achieve through other means than plumbing the depths of Dhar, there are some potential scenarios to do good only enabled by a price we've pretty much signed the check for already. At the end like you've said it's all about trying to keep it in perspective.
I suppose my arguments kinda spiraled out of hand in a bid to refute any assertions of why this was an argument with absolute answers.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mmmmmm yeah I'm glad we're gonna be ignoring most of that.I think you focused too much on the dwarfs' respect for duty over greed. They'd be sympathetic because if they were in the same position, they too wouldn't want to miss out on taking home dragon bones, because dragon bones are hella cool to the dwarves too.
Drachenfels - 1d4chan
1d4chan.org
Quite.
I also tried to clean it up, but I need to sleep so that's probably all its getting.
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Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
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- He/Him
So, I just did some poking around, and...
Oswald von Königswald's original attack on Drachenfels, with the assistance of the Lahmian vampiress Geneviève Dieudonné, canonically took place in 2477. If Drachenfels is active now, in 2480...
What if Geneviève was caught up in the conspiracy purge?
Oswald von Königswald's original attack on Drachenfels, with the assistance of the Lahmian vampiress Geneviève Dieudonné, canonically took place in 2477. If Drachenfels is active now, in 2480...
What if Geneviève was caught up in the conspiracy purge?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Keep in mind that the Drachenfels thing is only a thing in that it produces gribblies. Any canonical events tied to that ancient lore cannot be counted on.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Depends if she exists, which is debatable even with her books being possibly republished recently in new editions.
I'm pretty sure the Empire can handle it though.
Kornet
Quite possibly a sloth abomination
- Location
- Mother Russia
I think we just love bickering. Personally, while I may argue for practicing the second secret in principle, I don't think I would argue doing that anytime soon. I see it as a nice, but rather low-priority thing.
Okay, finally enough caught up to be able to post.
Personally, I quite agree with you that actually using/practicing anything from the Liber Mortis is a big time sink for something not really needed that comes with a bunch of drawbacks and we shouldn't do it. I just think if that circumstances change to the point where using it is more practical than not then the ethical/mindset issues should take a backseat to being more effective at accomplishing our overall goals.
So, uh, as I understand it most vampires tend to look like people in their prime (i.e. early twenties). Gabby the original vamp died in '62, and we met Heidi in her Gabby guise sometime '75/'76 IIRC which means we were in our mid twenties. If Heidi started her impersonation in her early twenties, then she'd have been in her mid thirties by the time we met at the most (difference of ~ a decade, which is possible with good genes/healthcare). Plus, we don't actually know how the switch happened - it's possible there was a year or two gap the Heidi left so Gabby's appearance wasn't super fresh in peoples' minds. Combined with the possibility of Heidi starting at around 18 and looked older than she was for a bit before transitioning to look younger it's not inconceivable that Heidi is only 5-10 years older than Mathilde.
The quote does mention that the specific context of "like studying serial killers for a week" would come as a result of using Dhar for a week. Presumably once the belt is factored in Necromancy is like other Lores of Magic in that the specific mindset needed can get pretty bad, but the main cause of mental corruption is overuse and/or it becoming a go-to problem solving tool. This doesn't stop using Dhar from being a bad idea based on the (many)other reasons that have come up, but it does mean we wouldn't really need to worry about how much Dhar usage was affecting Mathilde's thought-patterns until we were putting in a fair amount of practice with Necromancy in order to use it as our own personal Battle Magic personal scale nuke equivalent or going full Omegahugger/ninjafish.
Personally, I quite agree with you that actually using/practicing anything from the Liber Mortis is a big time sink for something not really needed that comes with a bunch of drawbacks and we shouldn't do it. I just think if that circumstances change to the point where using it is more practical than not then the ethical/mindset issues should take a backseat to being more effective at accomplishing our overall goals.
Maybe Vlad is/was the same sort of meticulous sort as Van Hal that takes really good care to avoid miscasts/overexposure, and misattributed part of that resistance to being a vampire rather than his behaviour.
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- Location
- Australia
Why would it be classified?
- Location
- Diamond City
Vote Tally and the Vibrant Social Life of Dame Magister Loremaster Mathilde
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We saw Anton recently guys.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[+] The Wizards of Karak Eight Peaks (locked in)
[ ] Prince Gotri, who will seize any excuse to talk about his gyrocopters.
[x] Princess Edda, to pry for details about her illicit romance with Prince Kazrik.
[ ] Prince Kazrik, as he tries to pry a shipwright loose from Barak Varr.
[x] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[x] Titus Muggins, who's returned to farming with every avenue of attack defended.
[x] Francesco Caravello, proud leader of the Undumgi
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart, as the new home of the Winter Wolves takes shape.
[x] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[ ] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[x] Karak Hirn, to satisfy your curiousity about Prince Ulthar.
[x] Roswita, as she tries to wrap her head around the influx of Battle Wizards.
[x] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
[x] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[ ] The Amber College, to see how your donation of Lustrian eggs is going.
[ ] Anton, to see how his firearm factory is going.
[ ] Wilhelmina, to see how she's going when she's not a terrifying financial juggernaut.
[x] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[ ] Check in on the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory.
[x] Check in on your fief in Stirland.
[ ] Other (write in)
Additionally, what will Mathilde end up doing with her new dragon skull?
[ ] Canopy bed, except skull instead of canopy.
[ ] On display in the Duckling Club.
[x] The best reading chair ever.
[ ] A bathtub, an even better place for reading.
[ ] Build it into the entrance to the Penthouse.
[x] Store away for some future purpose.
[ ] Other (write in)
It's something I've been working on myself. I won't clutter Boney's thread with talk of it, save to direct you towards my signature.
[ ] Prince Gotri, who will seize any excuse to talk about his gyrocopters.
[x] Princess Edda, to pry for details about her illicit romance with Prince Kazrik.
[ ] Prince Kazrik, as he tries to pry a shipwright loose from Barak Varr.
[x] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[x] Titus Muggins, who's returned to farming with every avenue of attack defended.
[x] Francesco Caravello, proud leader of the Undumgi
[x] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart, as the new home of the Winter Wolves takes shape.
[x] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[ ] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.
[x] Karak Hirn, to satisfy your curiousity about Prince Ulthar.
[x] Roswita, as she tries to wrap her head around the influx of Battle Wizards.
[x] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
[x] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[ ] The Amber College, to see how your donation of Lustrian eggs is going.
[ ] Anton, to see how his firearm factory is going.
[ ] Wilhelmina, to see how she's going when she's not a terrifying financial juggernaut.
[x] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[ ] Check in on the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory.
[x] Check in on your fief in Stirland.
[ ] Other (write in)
Additionally, what will Mathilde end up doing with her new dragon skull?
[ ] Canopy bed, except skull instead of canopy.
[ ] On display in the Duckling Club.
[x] The best reading chair ever.
[ ] A bathtub, an even better place for reading.
[ ] Build it into the entrance to the Penthouse.
[x] Store away for some future purpose.
[ ] Other (write in)
It's something I've been working on myself. I won't clutter Boney's thread with talk of it, save to direct you towards my signature.
- Location
- Canada
Incorrect
Only the Patriarch died doing whatever the hell he was doing, and his body was recovered
His Battle Wizards both survived and recovered him
- Location
- Australia
Wait, fucking what?
True.
Becoming a better Grey Wizard seems considerably more tempting in the short and even medium term than trying to go further into Dhar related research.
Really hoping for more magic learning in the coming turns.
Considering what Mathilde has accomplished one would expect her to be a particularly strong battle wizard or even a Wizard Lord.
Instead she's used surprisingly little large scale or complex magic to get to where she is...
- Location
- Philippines
My mistake about the total party kill, still bonus dungeon
- Location
- Canada
The previous Empress died with child under seemingly natural causes
No one was able to find anything suggesting otherwise though the nature of a sudden and unexpected death is of course suspicious, it occurred at the same time that the conspiracy was dismantled which suggests a connection
Mathilde has no idea what to think of the matter other than desperately hoping the two are unconnected