Yeah and basically from my point of view there aren't any good reasons for Mathilde to make the choice to use Dhar with Ulgu or just directly picking it up(which is even worse). Particularly with Sylvania getting burnt out.
And that choice I mention to use it even while safe is a part of that metaphorical corruption Boney is talking about there in my view, particularly using it to do things like promote her personal power or ascend to some magical/divine state or killing people with it.
I will mention he does talk about metaphorical corruption which sounds like what you're talking about here.
I just don't happen to view experiments in destroying dhar and warpstone as picking up Dhar use, the same way I do not view experiments in x-ray scanning as a part of nuclear armament.
Yes, I know the law disagrees, but I do not care. I do not fear it, as it can be enforced against us regardless of our future actions and I don't believe the risk measurably increases from experiments (we have worked with larger amount if dhar as part of snakejuice experiments), nor do I beleive in it's purpose here, as we are the kind of freak accident it could never account for.
Personally speaking, I think it would be wise to do some amount of testing of the second secret before putting it behind glass "in case
of zombie apocalypse", because what the grand theogenist did can be safely filed under 'miracle' and I doubt we'd be so fortunate if we try the "leaf through the liber Mortis, roll up our sleeves and tell Sigmar to hold our beer and watch this!" trick.
that quote came when the contexed was in dhar would be used against you. it was after when the idea we would be using it ourselves came up.
there is a conceptual difference between 'enemy magic, wrap stone being thrown at you and falling into demon shit etc... and willingly reaching out and messing with it yourself.
and in magic, conceptualism is as important as the Technicals.
that quote came when the contexed was in dhar would be used against you. it was after when the idea we would be using it ourselves came up.
there is a conceptual difference between 'enemy magic, wrap stone being thrown at you and falling into demon shit etc... and willingly reaching out and messing with it yourself.
and in magic, conceptualism is as important as the Technicals.
[X] Check in on your fief in Stirland.
[X] Loremaster: Expert on weaving
[X] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
Whilst that's true it's also because they pretty much beat it out of the winds of magic like literally. The dwarves smash magic over the head with a hammer until it does what it's told.
[X] Loremaster: Expert on beekeeping
[X] A bathtub, an even better place for reading.
[X] Roswita, as she tries to wrap her head around the influx of Battle Wizards.
[X] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
And that's the crux of the 'tong' part: you are not imposing your will on reality in a dhar-ish way, you are imposing it in an ulgui-ish way. It just happens that the reality you impose your will on happens to contain dhar.
I just think even on level you're talking about it still works, you're still mystically attuning your self to a specific wind of magic and still only actually manipulating that wind of magic with your soul, second order and third order effects of that wind manipulation may still impact the mindset of the user but they're enough steps removed to not be a problem.
Yeah, as long as magic has zero conceptual/metaphysical component, this rule-lawyering of "technically we are not doing it" should be sufficient.
Whether that's indeed the case, well...we shall see, I suppose.
We are not a dwarf, those are different creatures, and human magic is not dwarf rune magic. Runelords do not have Arcane Marks either, you know?
Also, not sure runes have no conceptual component.
If there were no such component, would Ancestor Rune work on humans back in Karag Nar battle? Like, if it were a simple "x.morale = x.morale +1 if x.race == DWARF else x.morale", would it even have worked via, uh, attuning humans to dwarf mindset or whatever it did?
It's not really worth working on Dhar at the moment - we'd have to keep it ultra secret and would thus only be able to get very limited practical use out of it.
We've got two pretty huge projects (snekjuice/theurgy) to work on that we can actually publish and use the results of, so they seem like a much more effective use of time.
We can just dead-drop the Liber Mortis with the Amethysts now that we've read it. If we ever have a hole in our schedule that can only be filled with Dhar research, we can spend a bunch of favor once we're a trusted Magister Lord to regain access to it for research purposes entirely above-board.
I mean, your interpretation makes sense if Dhar and magic generally is 100% mechanistic and there is no, like, metaphysical meaning behind the imposition of your will on reality and the act itself does not say anything at all about you.
And, like, in a setting without concept of Arcane Marks and human Wind Attunement I would agree with you.
Oh it absolutely does. Like, Mathilde picking up Dhar and using it would not be good for her. For any reason I can think of. Its doing what Black Magisters do and well... her self image is not a Black Magister and she hates them pretty deeply going by her reaction in the Black College of Necromancy. Her willingly becoming something she hates would be bad for her mental state.
The concept thus in my mind is that a big part of it is internal, and that the choice marks a change in her as a character, a person, and the story. Metaphysically in the sense of it having narrative meaning, its a very particular hmm.
It'd affect her. That I know for certain. The choice of using Dhar, tongs or no, and before she actually uses it is going to change her.
Whether magic works with the sort of philosophical point your making which is rather similar to how Tolkein magic works is not really how I understand magic working in Warhammer. Or at least not directly. What I mean is, you use Dhar and its going to mess up the environment and corrupt people and things and its going to mess up your mental state. Particularly if you personally equate it with evil like Mathilde does. Because magic is derived from a caster's mental state, the above means it all goes very fucked up. But another version appeared in the Grand Theogenist's trick which seemed to make things turn out alright.
Not good, because there was cursed ground outside Altdorf for who knows how many years and the other issues involved but better than if doing it for reasons you can't justify to yourself.
I just don't happen to view experiments in destroying dhar and warpstone as picking up Dhar use, the same way I do not view experiments in x-ray scanning as a part of nuclear armament.
Yes, I know the law disagrees, but I do not care. I do not fear it, as it can be enforced against us regardless of our future actions and I don't believe the risk measurably increases from experiments (we have worked with larger amount if dhar as part of snakejuice experiments), nor do I beleive in it's purpose here, as we are the kind of freak accident it could never account for.
Yeah, and I'm not gonna challenge that opinion because I think its a completely fair one. I won't vote for it, but that's because I want to stick to my own intent.
But to you both, I'm beginning to tucker out so I think that's my last point on this topic.
Now on another less intense topic does anyone think we'd get hints as to the locations of nearby dragons if we purchased Extensive Imperial and Extensive+Obscure Dwarven sources for our library?
So we are agreed that if Mathilde theoretically wants to learn to dhar she has the tools needed to do so without any personal direct repercussions? (excluding social consequences and dhar exposure to those around us)
We've also already breached the Articles in all but name. Your argument rings a lot more hollow when we would be executed for what we've already done if anyone knew. Full stop. All our good deeds? Ash in the wind of our pyre. Make an argument about how it might make hiding our efforts harder, but let's not use the Articles as a shield while ignoring the fact we've betrayed the trust of every other Imperial Wizard through our actions.
I...actually do care about the "in all but name". From a human perspective, the letter of the Articles isn't enough to keep us from the pyre for what we've done. But from a dwarven perspective- and may I remind you that most days we like Dwarves better than humans, and our thought processes and internal dialogue are getting increasingly dwarf-flavoured with mining metaphors- from a dwarven perspective the letter of the Articles is the difference between Dawongr Weber and oathbreaker Weber. And I think that matters, to us the thread, and to Mathilde who's finding she very much respects the dwarves among whom she's made her home and whose respect she enjoys in return.
I'd personally like the Duckling Club/chapterhouse to grow into its own and become an institution with a bit of momentum behind it. Once we aren't looking after a bunch of Journeymanlings as directly we can start on tutoring an apprentice. Also, Eight Peaks is likely to be the best chance we have to teach someone young, impressionable, and weak without them being horribly over their heads. We're already in a safeish place, and plan to be for years, if not decades. I imagine that by the time we move on, the thread will be itching to go on an extended excursion to Nehekhara or Mousillon or some similar place where no responsible Magister would drag an apprentice, so we should probably do this pretty soon.
Also, if we wait until we hit Wizard Lord I could see us ending up teaching a very politically sensitive child or absurd prodigy, since I doubt Lords have the time to teach very often. Personally, I'm partial to having some nobody street-rat sidekick than a stuck up noble or once in a thousand years talent.
Two separate Roswita actions seem a bit much. Do we really need a double dose? Could those voting for the Roswita action with less votes (watching her react to battle wizards) consider dropping that one?
Yeah, as long as magic has zero conceptual/metaphysical component, this rule-lawyering of "technically we are not doing it" should be sufficient.
Whether that's indeed the case, well...we shall see, I suppose.
Err no, I'm saying even with that conceptual and metaphysical component we're okay, because the winds of magic themselves embody mystical concepts and ideas and it's those ideas and concepts you need to mentally attune with to wield that wind which makes using that wind as a remote manipulator of other winds viable, it's also worth pointing out if you were right counter spelling would risk killing/damaing the caster that is trying to counter spell and that's never the case you cannot get backlash from trying to counter spell an enemy caster and you're definitely trying to hit one wind of magic with your wind when doing that so it's probably not a risk.
Just to be clear once again I'm not arguing for dhar manipulation even with Tongs I want to stay away from that.
Personally speaking, I have no desire to ever turn over the Liber Mortis to the College, if the Van Hal's thought it was safe to do so they would have done it centuries ago. The Empire doesn't need it for the Second Secret, they've already proven they have that in the copy kept in the Cathedral of Sigmar, and I'm sure the Amythest College has a large collection of Neromantic Lore they've studied over the years to know how to counter their enemies.
IMO, the best thing we can possibly do, is just keep it hidden like it has been. Then once we start building down, we let Kragg and Belegar know what we have, and have them help us making The Tightest Fucking Vault they possibly can, with the understanding that it is to stay sealed for the rest of eternity, unless The Empire is on the brink of destruction by Necromantic Forces, in which case they are to bring it out and LEND IT to which ever Wizard might be trust worthy enough to destroy the Undead Legions and then return the book.
I'd personally like the Duckling Club/chapterhouse to grow into its own and become an institution with a bit of momentum behind it. Once we aren't looking after a bunch of Journeymanlings as directly we can start on tutoring an apprentice. Also, Eight Peaks is likely to be the best chance we have to teach someone young, impressionable, and weak without them being horribly over their heads. We're already in a safeish place, and plan to be for years, if not decades. I imagine that by the time we move on, the thread will be itching to go on an extended excursion to Nehekhara or Mousillon or some similar place where no responsible Magister would drag an apprentice, so we should probably do this pretty soon.
Also, if we wait until we hit Wizard Lord I could see us ending up teaching a very politically sensitive child or absurd prodigy, since I doubt Lords have the time to teach very often. Personally, I'm partial to having some nobody street-rat sidekick than a stuck up noble or once in a thousand years talent.
Well... Imo if we hit Wizard Lord before picking one up I'm pretty sure we'll have enough lee way and authority to teach whoever we wish since the Colleges will manifestly trust our judgement.
That aside, I don't actually consider the Duckling Club/Chapterhouse to be mutually exclusive with an apprentice, in the sense that its useful infrastructure to teach an apprentice with and they could pretty straightforwardly be included into it.
I...actually do care about the "in all but name". From a human perspective, the letter of the Articles isn't enough to keep us from the pyre for what we've done. But from a dwarven perspective- and may I remind you that most days we like Dwarves better than humans, and our thought processes and internal dialogue are getting increasingly dwarf-flavoured with mining metaphors- from a dwarven perspective the letter of the Articles is the difference between Dawongr Weber and oathbreaker Weber. And I think that matters, to us the thread, and to Mathilde who's finding she very much respects the dwarves among whom she's made her home and whose respect she enjoys in return.
Like I don't want to push for Dhar usage but you can't quote a person say No and ignore the entire premise of their post. They explicitly pointed out it would still have sociological consquences and asked you to void that concern when asking about it because they're asking people to acknowledge the basic facts and conceits that we've had revealed to us about magic and the context of our artififacts and Mathildes IC knowledge.
He knows that the Dwarves and pretty much every one would hate us if we were running around using Dhar. That's not what the question was about. I don't know why people feel the need to contort themselves into this position.
"Yes it's technically safe in the sense that using dhar via tongs wouldn't corrupt us because of the belt, it's still a bad idea that I don't want to peruse for a whole host of other reasons." That's the actual nuanced position which is cool I'm with you on that.
From what I've gathered they have better memories, much better emotional recall and are slower to change their minds. This leads to things like keeping grudges (lower g without supporting culture) and higher cases of deep shame and depression if not handled correctly. Otherwise they seem less mentally deviant from each other than humans. Different personalities, sensitivities, motives and interests are of course still a thing, but both criminal thought and insanity seem to be much rarer and less severe outside of specific types more common to dwarves (paranoia, depression, OCD, focus on singular things, gold fever, anger issues).
The dialogue, characters, characterization and story-telling/world-building in this is great. I love it.
Patriarch Algard keeping tallies of every time his Towers dunked on an enemy is great. The dialogue with him was great.
The few lines on Dragomas's backstory? It's great. It paints you an entire picture of what this person is like and what they did, it tells you what they focus on and what they try to do, and... it's great.
It also manages to set up the deeds and backstory of a character, to hype them up, without feeling lame. Without feeling like another of those "And so, they totally cleared out this road and killed this army." (Warhammer armybook hype-building can be hit and miss at times.) While at the same it... it both doesn't feel overwhelming, but also doesn't feel... wasted-y? Dragomas managed to get a non-aggression pact with a far-off nation. That sort of things speaks more to his capabilities -- his martial skills and probable diplomacy and his ability to deal with other cultures -- than it does to some kind of... of attempt to make everybody world-shaking (but still somehow not world-shaking) that WHFB can be hit-or-miss on. Yeah, making a treaty or pact with a far-off country might feel like a big deal (and which an armybook might try to use) but in this case it felt more like an attempt to show "Yes, this person is skilled at diplomacy, politics, and likely combat." rather than attempt to make you believe that it's... well, you know.
And him turning into a dragon to win the Supreme Patriarch fight is pretty easy to understand. And fucking awesome. And his focus on treatment of Battle Wizards, and his focus on the Imperial Zoo as a pet project, gives you an idea of 'what this person tries to focus on' 'what sort of political attempts/goals/focuses did this person achieve or attempt?' as well as 'what do they do when they're off-screen?'
Look, Wizards do things like gleefully and totally happily keep track of how many enemy armies they suckered in, or that time they dramatically turned into a dragon in front of a crowd, or that time they knocked over the Scholomance, shanked the Prophet of Only Gork, and so on. It's great.
And somehow, as soon as I heard the Empress's voice being familiar, I immediately leapt to the assumption that it was Gabriella. "But no, that would be absurd, righ--oh wait it totally is. Huh."
Algard does not have an open-door policy, but that is only because it would let the warmth out. Any Grey Wizard who believes they have sufficient reason to see him are allowed to do so, with the understanding that the right will be revoked if squandered on trivialities. So surely after your arrival, the door to the Magister Patriarch's office opens and you push in the cart you've borrowed for this purpose.
Algard is brilliant, but just as prone to eccentricities as any Wizard. Instead of bookshelves or mementos, his office walls are lined with carefully illuminated copies of the Imperial Army's estimates of the Chaos warbands, Beastherds, undead hordes and even one Naggaroth raiding party that have each succumbed to the lure of his famous Screaming Towers and been caught by ambushes and pincers as a result. His desk is completely clear save for a small enchanted windsock that shows the direction and strength of the Winds' whimsies, with his inbox and outbox rotated into dimensions created for this sole purpose of maintaining a clean desk.
This is amazing and perfect and and and I just love this. This is just... perfect.
This is something that speaks to me on a deep level.
It just clicks. With me and, I hope, Mathilde too.
Like if Mathilde had managed to use Burning Shadows on the Citadel, or a mountain, and ever afterwards kept a physical tally of the each assault she managed to break with Burning Shadows.
Oh yeah, and the windsock thing is neat too. A bit whimsical. But so, so believable for that. You can feel the sheer emotion of "Yeah, I think this'd make for a neat knickknack to place on my desk. It's even vaguely functional. Thematic, definitely." that's in it.
Even as the war against the Skaven begins to swing in Frederick's favour, the war within his mind spirals quickly. By the time that the Empire had mobilized under the future Emperor Mandred, Frederick was so far gone that with three pages of scrawled suspicion and paranoia he had talked himself into believing that they were allied with the rats and had begun to formulate battle plans along a second front. The rantings are cut off mid-sentence, and only a single line appears below:
The results are conclusive. Nagash's Art cannot be safely wielded by even the best of mortals. May his Morr be more merciful than Usirian.
What little unused cargo space there is in the gyrocarriage is quickly filled with the administrative paperwork of the rule of Teufelheim and the education of Alkharad's disciples, but the pilots and the Hammerers take your regret that you can't also take the dragon bones very seriously and with some quick work with ropes and chains the skull of one of the long-dead beasts is lashed to the side of the gyrocarriage.
Additionally, what will Mathilde end up doing with her new dragon skull?
[ ] Canopy bed, except skull instead of canopy.
[ ] On display in the Duckling Club.
[ ] The best reading chair ever.
[ ] A bathtub, an even better place for reading.
[ ] Build it into the entrance to the Penthouse.
[ ] Store away for some future purpose.
[ ] Other (write in)
- In tribute to the massive turnout for the previous vote, Mathilde has managed to add a dragon skull to her haul. Because that wasn't one of the winning votes, it is and will always be solely aesthetic. It cannot be used to make anything except kicking rad furniture. There is no way to change that. There is no way to retrieve any other bones from Teufelheim. Don't ask. Seriously, don't.
Please don't make a bath out of it though. Ew. Maybe not a chair or bed, too. Even after being seriously cleaned, I still wouldn't be able to forget that it came from a Necrarch's hoard.
Two separate Roswita actions seem a bit much. Do we really need a double dose? Could those voting for the Roswita action with less votes (watching her react to battle wizards) consider dropping that one?
I kinda want to return the Liber Mortis to Van Hal's line, once we're sure that Roswita won't burn us for it -- reading their ancestor's journal of how and why he did the things he did was clearly important enough for every member of the family up until Abelhelm to keep it, despite knowing the risks it'd bring.
We've got two pretty huge projects (snekjuice/theurgy) to work on that we can actually publish and use the results of, so they seem like a much more effective use of time.
a bit iffier on whether it's a good idea to publish what we find on Theurgy.
there is a very... not atheist... but a 'lets keep the gods out it' ethos in the College, officially at least. basically since its founding because of Volans third letter. (his letters are kind of treated by the college like early Christians treated St Paul's letters. not quite gospel but you should really really take it seriously.)
"Even though this might be true, I do not believe that we, the Magisters of the Imperial Colleges of Magic, should follow their example and choose for ourselves Gods to wholly dedicate ourselves to and beg favours from, to use in conjunction with our own arcane spellcraft. Nothing in this life or the next is free, and whilst I am willing to trust in my own abilities and limitations, and accept any errors I make while weaving my spells, I do not wish to trust the continued benevolence of a deity whose need for my faith and dedication might far outweigh my own need for His or Her aid."—from Magister Volans' third letter to the Colleges of Magic
While most would probably just go 'wow shiny' there will be a faction that would have problems with this line of study.
Oh it absolutely does. Like, Mathilde picking up Dhar and using it would not be good for her. For any reason I can think of. Its doing what Black Magisters do and well... her self image is not a Black Magister and she hates them pretty deeply going by her reaction in the Black College of Necromancy. Her willingly becoming something she hates would be bad for her mental state.
The concept thus in my mind is that a big part of it is internal, and that the choice marks a change in her as a character, a person, and the story. Metaphysically in the sense of it having narrative meaning, its a very particular hmm.
In a narrative sense, I dislike the idea that we can use Dhar with no repercussions.
Like, a story where the Godzilla Threshold is reached, and we decide to do as Frederick did, using Dhar and knowingly damning ourselves, but going willingly into it for the sake of the Empire and etc.- that's a story I could understand and get into.
"There's this evil magic, functionally the source of, like, 50% of all the shit affecting the world, but I can use it without any problems" isn't satisfying to me. The Lord of the Rings didn't end with Frodo using the power of the Ring to beat up Sauron and then dump it in Mount Doom, you know? A story of temptation, resisting temptation, failing, fallen heroes, those are all story beats that I can accept and even enjoy, if in a bittersweet way. Us just using Dhar, and being perfectly fine thanks to Kragg's belt... I just don't like that sort of narrative.
