Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[ctulhuslp]

Depends on how tongs work.

To attune to the Wind, humans must alter their psyche and soul in a proper way. Therefore, magic is sort of metaphysically...a part of caster's nature, in the same way divine magic is only possible via deep, deep faith.

Therefore, I am not sure that there are zero consequences, metaphysically, for necromancy and dhar manipulation. Belt or not.
At least for me "Belt magically protects from metaphysical alterations from manipulating dhar" would make as much sense as "Belt magically protects against Ulgu-attunement of the soul and from Acrane Marks". It's..up to QM, but it would feel really unsatisfying and going against metaphysical nature of magic to me.


edit: Magic is not just some tool in WHFB; it is a part, often the part, of caster's soul, mind and body. Artifact changing such a fundamental constant of the setting would be...narratively very whiplash-y and weird, in my eyes.

 

[Yuckwitte]

[X] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
[x] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[x] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[x] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[x] Anton, to see how his firearm factory is going.

[x] The best reading chair ever.

[x] Loremaster: Expert on beekeeping

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I am entirely unconvinced that the idea that "tongs" protect the mind has any validity to it at all.

However I have managed to develop this hypothesis of what the entire thought-process that originated that idea might have been:

1. Necromancy is using Shyish tongs to manipulate Dhar
2. Therefore it's mentally messing with Shyish and not Dhar
3. Necromancers only go insane because of physical effects of Dhar
4. We have anti-Dhar belt and are therefore immune to consequences

Now the issue is that there are massive logic-jumps and assumptions inbetween and within those points.

Which in turn makes me question whether people are willingly ignoring the blatant flaws in such a reasoning or am I just wrong and that wasn't the thought-process at all.

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You're missing a descriptor.

1. Necromancy is using Shyish tongs to manipulate Dhar
2. Therefore it's mentally messing with Shyish and not Dhar
3. Necromancers only go insane because of physical and mental/soul effects of Dhar
4. We have anti-Dhar belt and are therefore immune to consequences

WE have word of god that Mathilde could juggle warpstone whilst wearing the belt and be fine, for that to be the case per WoG then we're immune to the side effects of dhar in their entirety.

Depends on how tongs work.

To attune to the Wind, humans must alter their psyche and soul in a proper way. Therefore, magic is sort of metaphysically...a part of caster's nature, in the same way divine magic is only possible via deep, deep faith.

Therefore, I am not sure that there are zero consequences, metaphysically, for necromancy and dhar manipulation. Belt or not.
At least for me "Belt magically protects from metaphysical alterations from manipulating dhar" would make as much sense as "Belt magically protects against Ulgu-attunement of the soul and from Acrane Marks". It's..up to QM, but it would feel really unsatisfying and going against metaphysical nature of magic to me.


edit: Magic is not just some tool in WHFB; it is a part, often the part, of caster's soul, mind and body. Artifact changing such a fundamental constant of the setting would be...narratively very whiplash-y and weird, in my eyes.

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It doesn't change the fundamentals of the setting. You're misunderstanding something. To use magic you must channel it through your soul. That's how you manipulate it in the first place. When using Shyish tongs you're not channelling dhar, you're channelling Shyish. This lets you manipulate dhar with out having your soul touch it. Now that's not enough for the ordinary wizard. Dhar radiates and corrupts you regardless because that's part of how that melange of crud works it's basically magical radiation. So even though Shyish tongs stops you channelling dhar you're still getting irradiated and corrupted.

The belt isolates the user from the radiation of dhar by transforming it.

 

[BungieONI]

I'm sympathetic to this view my self, but there's like 5 actual voters for that in a voterbase of 200. There's literally no risk of this being an issue.

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While in theory this is true, it was this sort of reasoning which convinced people to vote to read the Liber Mortis and basically break the Articles the first go round.

Like, if you give people good enough reasons, they will vote for using it and the problem Abby is pointing out is that testing it out gives more ammunition for people to convince themselves that its not as big an issue as they think. (This is basically what happened with me and the Liber Mortis after talking to veekie shortly after I joined the thread)

Its also a concern about nuance, which is difficult to maintain on fraught issues. For... anyone, really.

 

[Guile]

Why are we even going back over the Dhar debate? Vote for waifus, people

 

[Varano]

You're missing a descriptor.

1. Necromancy is using Shyish tongs to manipulate Dhar
2. Therefore it's mentally messing with Shyish and not Dhar
3. Necromancers only go insane because of physical and mental/soul effects of Dhar
4. We have anti-Dhar belt and are therefore immune to consequences

WE have word of god that Mathilde could juggle warpstone whilst wearing the belt and be fine, for that to be the case per WoG then we're immune to the side effects of dhar in their entirety.

Click to shrink...

citation needed

 

[Mopman43]

I'm sympathetic to this view my self, but there's like 5 actual voters for that in a voterbase of 200. There's literally no risk of this being an issue.

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To be fair, there was like, 100 voters the time that Dhar usage actually came up. The voterbase has expanded somewhat.

All the same, I see no reason to cross-over from not technically breaking Article 7 to most definitely breaking Article 7.

 

[chocolote12]

citation needed

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For what? Juggling warpstone?

 

[Kornet]

citation needed

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Have one

It means that you could juggle warpstone, hug a demon, and fling Dhar around and just have to deal with your robes getting singed as the corruption burns away rather than sinking into your soul. If you had this in Sylvania you would have just had to deal with occasional minor flashfires on your skin instead of those ominous 'go on, raise the dead, you know you want to' options popping up all over the place. It probably says a lot about Kragg's opinion of manling wizards that he saw that as the main sort of 'protection' you needed.

That said, while it makes you immune to metaphysical corruption it doesn't make you immune to metaphorical corruption; you could still go down a dark road where you become the next Nagash or fall to one of the Chaos Gods through hubris or personality flaws or personal tragedy, but you're not going to get fishhooked into it by mystical means.

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[Thespurgin]

Pretty sure she'd explode.

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I think she'd just die, honestly.

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Thus, OMAKE.

That being said, we WERE previously the lightningrod for Only God's divinity. If Ranald thought it'd be funny, I could see him going "Fuck it, you're the avatar of Uglu now! Malekith doesn't deserve it!"

He's taken, by the healer goddess. That spot has been filled.

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I was under the impression she is very much a lover scorned... but as a hopeless romantic myself, I can't blame him for pining.
Still doesn't rule out his assistance though. Malekith of all people being the avatar of Uglu is an affront to the winds of magic IMHO. The guy literally dedicated himself to learning chaos magic and Dharmancy when he found the Iron Circlet. Toss that Darth Vader wannabe in with the slaanesh worshippers and get a new model!

 

[SuperSonicSound]

To be fair, there was like, 100 voters the time that Dhar usage actually came up. The voterbase has expanded somewhat.

All the same, I see no reason to cross-over from not technically breaking Article 7 to most definitely breaking Article 7.

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Yea I'm not interested in wielding dhar as I've said repeatedly. What I am interested in is how due to those changes we've research opportunities that could unlock a lot of other cool things.

 

[kingreaper]

None attuned to Ulgu.

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I have a feeling that if there were an epic staff attuned to Ulgu it's entirely possible that one of its traits would result in no-one being aware of it...

 

[ctulhuslp]

You're missing a descriptor.

1. Necromancy is using Shyish tongs to manipulate Dhar
2. Therefore it's mentally messing with Shyish and not Dhar
3. Necromancers only go insane because of physical and mental/soul effects of Dhar
4. We have anti-Dhar belt and are therefore immune to consequences

WE have word of god that Mathilde could juggle warpstone whilst wearing the belt and be fine, for that to be the case per WoG then we're immune to the side effects of dhar in their entirety.

Click to shrink...

Again, I think this approach fails to see the difference between "juggling warpstone" and "magic, which is explicitly part of caster's soul in the setting".

Magic is not just a tool in WHFB, it's part of caster's being. I am not sure comparison is valid.

I mean, WoG is WoG, and if boney rules so, so be it....
But it'd be like, contravening one of setting's underpinnings, really, to ignore that magic is not just another tool, but a part of their being, and thus act of casting - of imposing your will on the reality - is, like....says something about caster, something that merely touching Magical Uranium does not.


What kind of person, fundamentally, would you have to be to willingly impose change on reality in a Dhar-toned way?

i mean, again, is boneyM says belt handwaves the difference away and protects from the metaphysics of "the kind of person whose will runs in dhar-enough way to impose it on reality" from having consequences...sure, not going to argue with WoG here.

 

[Alectai]

We've also already breached the Articles in all but name. Your argument rings a lot more hollow when we would be executed for what we've already done if anyone knew. Full stop. All our good deeds? Ash in the wind of our pyre. Make an argument about how it might make hiding our efforts harder, but let's not use the Articles as a shield while ignoring the fact we've betrayed the trust of every other Imperial Wizard through our actions.

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Nope, it's using Dark Magic that's illegal, studying it is A-OK.

It's just that literally nobody would believe we studied the Liber Mortis and didn't do it to use Black Magic because its reputation is that bad. But that sliver of respectability is likely what keeps Mathilde from actually showing up on any sekrit detection methods that the Grey College uses.

The moment we actually put into practice any of the Dhar secrets, we are officially in violation, as opposed to the Article 4 shield which lets us observe and document the phenomena.

 

[Mopman43]

Yea I'm not interested in wielding dhar as I've said repeatedly. What I am interested in is how due to those changes we've research opportunities that could unlock a lot of other cool things.

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I'm not, like, averse to the idea of trying to wield one wind with another wind. I don't think it'll do anybody much good, even if it can be used safely, but, you know, you do you, man.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Again, I think this approach fails to see the difference between "juggling warpstone" and "magic, which is explicitly part of caster's soul in the setting".

Magic is not just a tool in WHFB, it's part of caster's being. I am not sure comparison is valid.

I mean, WoG is WoG, and if boney rules so, so be it....
But it'd be like, contravening one of setting's underpinnings, really, to ignore that magic is not just another tool, but a part of their being, and thus act of casting - of imposing your will on the reality - is, like....says something about caster, something that merely touching Magical Uranium does not.


What kind of person, fundamentally, would you have to be to willingly impose change on reality in a Dhar-toned way?

i mean, again, is boneyM says belt handwaves the difference away and protects from the metaphysics of "the kind of person whose will runs in dhar-enough way to impose it on reality" from having consequences...sure, not going to argue with WoG here.

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Read the edit to the post you just quoted. I put an explanation for what I think you're missing.

 

[BungieONI]

Have one

Click to shrink...

Yeah and basically from my point of view there aren't any good reasons for Mathilde to make the choice to use Dhar with Ulgu or just directly picking it up(which is even worse). Particularly with Sylvania getting burnt out.

And that choice I mention to use it even while safe is a part of that metaphorical corruption Boney is talking about there in my view, particularly using it to do things like promote her personal power or ascend to some magical/divine state or killing people with it.

What kind of person, fundamentally, would you have to be to willingly impose change on reality in a Dhar-toned way?

i mean, again, is boneyM says belt handwaves the difference away and protects from the metaphysics of "the kind of person whose will runs in dhar-enough way to impose it on reality" from having consequences...sure, not going to argue with WoG here.

Click to shrink...

I will mention he does talk about metaphorical corruption which sounds like what you're talking about here.

 

[racnor]

[X] Princess Edda, to pry for details about her illicit romance with Prince Kazrik.
[x] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[x] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[x] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.

 

[Kornet]

Again, I think this approach fails to see the difference between "juggling warpstone" and "magic, which is explicitly part of caster's soul in the setting".

Magic is not just a tool in WHFB, it's part of caster's being. I am not sure comparison is valid.

I mean, WoG is WoG, and if boney rules so, so be it....
But it'd be like, contravening one of setting's underpinnings, really, to ignore that magic is not just another tool, but a part of their being, and thus act of casting - of imposing your will on the reality - is, like....says something about caster, something that merely touching Magical Uranium does not.


What kind of person, fundamentally, would you have to be to willingly impose change on reality in a Dhar-toned way?

i mean, again, is boneyM says belt handwaves the difference away and protects from the metaphysics of "the kind of person whose will runs in dhar-enough way to impose it on reality" from having consequences...sure, not going to argue with WoG here.

Click to shrink...

And that's the crux of the 'tong' part: you are not imposing your will on reality in a dhar-ish way, you are imposing it in an ulgui-ish way. It just happens that the reality you impose your will on happens to contain dhar.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Have one

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that quote came when the contexed was in dhar would be used against you. it was after when the idea we would be using it ourselves came up.

there is a conceptual difference between 'enemy magic, wrap stone being thrown at you and falling into demon shit etc... and willingly reaching out and messing with it yourself.

and in magic, conceptualism is as important as the Technicals.

that's why is magic.

 

[ctulhuslp]

It doesn't change the fundamentals of the setting. You're misunderstanding something. To use magic you must channel it through your soul. That's how you manipulate it in the first place. When using Shyish tongs you're not channelling dhar, you're channelling Shyish. This lets you manipulate dhar with out having your soul touch it. Now that's not enough for the ordinary wizard. Dhar radiates and corrupts you regardless because that's part of how that melange of crud works it's basically magical radiation. So even though Shyish tongs stops you channelling dhar you're still getting irradiated and corrupted.

The belt isolates the user from the radiation of dhar by transforming it.

Click to shrink...

I am not sure I do: if "channel through soul" implies way more distant relationship than what concepts of Wind Attunement or Arcane Marks tell us.

I think that the way you conceptualize it probably applies to High Elves, but humans in setting have been remarked upon to associate very strongly with their chosen Wind, along with generally being more mutable.
(Notably enough, humans cannot use True Dhar either)

I mean, your interpretation makes sense if Dhar and magic generally is 100% mechanistic and there is no, like, metaphysical meaning behind the imposition of your will on reality and the act itself does not say anything at all about you.
And, like, in a setting without concept of Arcane Marks and human Wind Attunement I would agree with you.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

citation needed

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Citation for what? I mean this is entirely unhelpful to the discussion if you're going throw these words out with out any kind of clarification to what you're objecting to or what needs citing.

I am not sure I do: if "channel through soul" implies way more distant relationship than what concepts of Wind Attunement or Arcane Marks tell us.

I think that the way you conceptualize it probably applies to High Elves, but humans in setting have been remarked upon to associate very strongly with their chosen Wind, along with generally being more mutable.
(Notably enough, humans cannot use True Dhar either)

I mean, your interpretation makes sense if Dhar and magic generally is 100% mechanistic and there is no, like, metaphysical meaning behind the imposition of your will on reality and the act itself does not say anything at all about you.
And, like, in a setting without concept of Arcane Marks and human Wind Attunement I would agree with you.

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I just think even on level you're talking about it still works, you're still mystically attuning your self to a specific wind of magic and the concepts it embodies and still only actually manipulating that wind of magic with your soul, second order and third order effects of that wind manipulation may still impact the mindset of the user but they're enough steps removed to not be a problem or if they are a problem they're much easier to deal with than the effects of the first order counter manipulation of the soul and mindset of the user from directly manipulating a wind. Per WoG we've been told that Mathilde already has to ground her personality and views in those around her lest she be warped by using Ulgu.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Again, I think this approach fails to see the difference between "juggling warpstone" and "magic, which is explicitly part of caster's soul in the setting".

Magic is not just a tool in WHFB, it's part of caster's being. I am not sure comparison is valid.

I mean, WoG is WoG, and if boney rules so, so be it....
But it'd be like, contravening one of setting's underpinnings, really, to ignore that magic is not just another tool, but a part of their being, and thus act of casting - of imposing your will on the reality - is, like....says something about caster, something that merely touching Magical Uranium does not.


What kind of person, fundamentally, would you have to be to willingly impose change on reality in a Dhar-toned way?

i mean, again, is boneyM says belt handwaves the difference away and protects from the metaphysics of "the kind of person whose will runs in dhar-enough way to impose it on reality" from having consequences...sure, not going to argue with WoG here.

Click to shrink...

All of your concerns are neatly answered by the fact that, using Wind X to manipulate Wind Y means that you never channel Wind Y through your soul.

 

[Lealope]

Why are we even going back over the Dhar debate? Vote for waifus, people

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Sure.

[X] Roswita, as she tries to wrap her head around the influx of Battle Wizards.
[X] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.

Not gonna lie, I kinda sorta ship Roswita/Mathilde just a little bit now. Is any potential relationship fraught with issues for an enormous number of reasons? Yeah, of course. But I think they'd be cute.

[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.

I want Heidi to be our BFF and to have sleepovers and do each others nails and talk about Ranald.

 

[Thor's Twin]

I must say, if we do want to get into imperial politics, and I do if only to be a Wizard Lord, then making fast friends with the Imperial Consort is a great way to do that. And we have so much to learn from her about the more subtler arts of intrigue regarding the long Con.

I can just sense that if we are able to talk to her, it will be the start of a wonderful and productive friendship.