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The biggest problem I see with the monitoring is that we would need to interface with several nexuses to do it or dig down far enough to actually get to the flow of the leylines...
Both of those have the inherit problem of "now how do we do that without fucking it up and reshaping the landscape via explosive geological movement.

I do not think you would technically have to touch the magic to monitor it. The Asur just seem to observe the flow passively to tell when something has changed. That is how they figured out about the tributaries. That said you would need a lot of wizards and not just that but ones with good mage sight.

Alternatively you would need some kind of standard seviroscope at all points of interest which would still be quite costly for something that does not produce any imediate benefits.

Don't get me wrong @LostSnufkin I like your idea and I think down the line it would make a lot of sense to implement it, but for right now the question we should be asking is 'does it make more sense to use all that money and wizard power monitoring the network or expanding it?'. There are still obvious holes and I'm not sure we need a fine touch on where trouble may be hiding when a lot of the trouble is so obvious: Yes fix Sylvania, yes it would be nice if Mordheim was inhabitable by more than ghouls etc...

I think you may be a few steps ahead of where the Empire and the whole Old World is in regards to the Network.
 
I do think some continued engagement with the network is needed just to prevent hands-on experience getting lost. If they have to dig out the relevant books out of storage each time they need to debug the network it is not going to work long term.

Maybe make it part of the process of becoming a magister? TheColleges have a big list of all the Waystones, and each new magister gets as their first job to check on the Waystone which hasn't been checked on the longest. That would give everyone at least some basic familiarity with the functions of the network, and if they spot a problem they can call in the few wizards who specialise in it.



Adela was in for piloting Gyrocopter because it furthered her own ambition of understanding steam yes.

It seems unlikely she would want to be a pilot forever, though, since once she learned everything she could from it those ambitions would probably lead her to look for new sources of information or ways to use that knowledge. And/or if she took a leadership or teaching position somewhere she probably couldn't take a sabbatical each time Mathilde needs to spend a month somewhere else.

At some point Mathilde will need a new pilot.



[X] Plan: Next arc boon.
-[X] We have no current need for any of this. Bank it until the Waystone Project is over and we've decided on our next project.
[X] Save the boon until we choose our next project
 
Well you're not wrong about that once-a-year check not being that useful. Then again that's not really the aim of this.

For the leylines there is a wide spread of options - a single annual Altdorf check, checking several spots/branches, checking on branches on rotation so you can track issues to a region, doing more frequent checks/timed checks. You could use spells/techniques, or commission runic/enchanted devices so perpetuals can do the work. There is a whole range of options - and sure doing next to nothing produces very little...but it's just one option and ensures it can continue in tough times

The direct benefits of leylines monitoring are mostly useful because they can justify doing it. But it also keeps wizards engaged with the network, it provides continued data to make other analysis possible, it opens the door for more research into network performance, and it provides a way to measure just how much magic is siphoned away - if only for publicity/persuasion purposes.

The whole proposal though isn't about leylines monitoring at all, which is the reason why there is no actual requirement for anyone to do that much. What I was aiming for is to lay the foundation of a self-reinforcong structure that will grow of it's own accord and be resilient to crises and chaotic events.

The whole 'we're just blazing a trail' just like in Prague is very much at the forefront of this idea. Leylines monitoring and local mapping is good but just means to an end to keep the colleges engaged on a continual basis, to have sovereign and local rulers getting regular reports about opportunities and risks, to provide a more measurable cost/benefits to more investment, and so on.

That's the core of why it's an empire boon,and focused around non-college participation. Setting out whose responsibility what is, giving cults/regular academics an in, and making sure there are a range of options to fulfil requirements.



I mentioned before that this idea would take quite a bit of writing to flesh out, and I think it shows. I'm not sure if I'll actually get around to that - I'm only typing this out on my phone after all. But that's the aim - laying the seeds and setting the conditions for a self-reinforcing system
All I'm seeing is a repeating of the same argument without evidence to back it up. Yes, the initial "just monitor the flow of magic through the Altdorf nexus" buy-in is easy. But scaling up isn't free; in fact, it gets exponentially more time-consuming and difficult to justify. Wizard-hours are not a plant that you grow, it's a limited resource that you can't easily make more of in any reasonable time frame.

We don't want tons of wizards getting involved in the existing leylines all over the place, because a lot of the wizards the Colleges have are either Journeymen--and are explicitly taught to not mess with Waystones except under specific circumstances--or Magisters who have much better things to do with their time than go around checking in on leylines and waystones that are going to be functioning just fine 99.99% of the time.

There is no "blazing a trail" here, because we can't pull in the manpower and resources of entire states into this, because the Colleges are the magical resources of the Empire and while it can spare wizard hours and resources for stuff like building permanent infrastructure, it cannot spare that for regular maintenance (which isn't even required) and monitoring of the entire damn network down to every leyline.

To paraphrase an early part of the quest: "I've got an army of thousands of peasants armed with crossbows and spears, and I've got ten cannon. You (the wizard) are the cannon. Find a way to make this work with thousands of peasants instead of the precious few cannon that I have, and I'll consider it."

The Colleges already work to generally check in on waystones they know the locations of and make sure they're still in working order. But this is not "every waystone gets checked and monitored every year", and the wizard-hours to measure energy flows for a substantial amount of time at each waystone don't exist. And as a reminder, the waystone network sends energy in packets of varying size and composition, making the process of gathering useful data even harder and more time-consuming. This is the kind of thing that can work if you have wizards with the right skills and tools placed at key waystone nexuses year-round to measure the flow through that, but getting more granular is just not practical at all.
 
I do think some continued engagement with the network is needed just to prevent hands-on experience getting lost. If they have to dig out the relevant books out of storage each time they need to debug the network it is not going to work long term.
Actually, it's easier than you'd think. What's needed is to record detailed descriptions of the network, what waystones are, what components they're made from, how to produce those components, known alternative components/processes, and who made what, and then store all of that information in places with an excellent track record of preserving information. Examples include Karaz-a-Karak, Laurelorn, and Ulthuan. Write a book or several on it and include copies of them in every secure library you can afford to put them in, with instructions to keep making new copies to preserve the information over long periods of time.

The reason the knowledge was lost the first time around is because the people who built the golden age network never imagined they'd even need to do anything to preserve the knowledge. The Sundering suddenly occurred, then the War of Vengeance, then the Time of Woes, all in a row, interrupting the ongoing project and putting it far back on the priorities list indefinitely. Barak Varr still has the de-activated Waystone Nexus monolith sitting in storage, where the original waystone project had been in the process of setting it up. It was all interrupted that suddenly and thoroughly.

Now, waystones are in mass production again, but this time with components that can be much more easily sourced and with alternative solutions developed in case any one of those components becomes unavailable. The Karaz Ankor holds the reclamation of more of its lost Karak-Waystones as a top priority for long term efforts, and the dwarves already defend and fortify their existing karaks extremely well against even the most insidious of threats. Laurelorn is more secure than it's been in a very long time. The Empire has actual magical institutions founded by Teclis himself, who impressed upon the founding members the eternal importance of defending and preserving the waystones...and now the Colleges have a far more complete picture of them and appreciation for their importance.

This time around, the Waystone Project has proceeded with the acknowledgement of dangers and risks that the participants of the original waystone projects never imagined: that war, time, neglect, disasters, and thievery are all factors that have to be guarded against. The Stone Flower is a pyramidion that looks like, well, stone, and thus doesn't inspire thieves to pick off the golden tops of waystones and ruin them. Multiple component options exist for each part, from the advanced to the primitive. We've incoporated an alternative transmission method into the design so that they can work even when not part of the main Waystone Network. Our supply chains don't rely on a single exotic substance that can only be obtained from one place and forged by a small number of specialists.
 
I do think some continued engagement with the network is needed just to prevent hands-on experience getting lost. If they have to dig out the relevant books out of storage each time they need to debug the network it is not going to work long term.

Maybe make it part of the process of becoming a magister? TheColleges have a big list of all the Waystones, and each new magister gets as their first job to check on the Waystone which hasn't been checked on the longest. That would give everyone at least some basic familiarity with the functions of the network, and if they spot a problem they can call in the few wizards who specialise in it.

I know the very notion is alien to Mathilde but a lot of Magisters have no interest in traveling, much less traveling to some random ass corner of the Empire once they get their full status. There are people in the Colleges teaching, turning staffs and making power stones full time.
 
The biggest problem I see with the monitoring is that we would need to interface with several nexuses to do it or dig down far enough to actually get to the flow of the leylines...
Both of those have the inherit problem of "now how do we do that without fucking it up and reshaping the landscape via explosive geological movement.

Hah, yeah. I was hoping to gloss over that. In my original thoughts I figured it might be too hard to jump to nexus-level leylines and we'd have to start with just tracking smaller stuff... But that didn't fit with the boon-format so I decided to handwave it.

I mean maybe it's easy but probably not.

Don't get me wrong @LostSnufkin I like your idea and I think down the line it would make a lot of sense to implement it, but for right now the question we should be asking is 'does it make more sense to use all that money and wizard power monitoring the network or expanding it?'. There are still obvious holes and I'm not sure we need a fine touch on where trouble may be hiding when a lot of the trouble is so obvious: Yes fix Sylvania, yes it would be nice if Mordheim was inhabitable by more than ghouls etc.

I think you may be a few steps ahead of where the Empire and the whole Old World is in regards to the Network.

Hmm, well I'm not carrying too many expectations, and I don't think it's that important we do this. But I absolutely think this sort of thing is by far the most bang-for-buck we could go for.

The leylines monitoring and mapping is... Well it's nice. But what I'm going for is not just decades but centuries of magical research. Not just a few high level leaders thinking about waystones until the next big crisis, but every layer of society and type of institution aware and involved with the network in some way. More than shoring up holes and making a few improvements here and there - instead nations committing to working towards 100% coverage.

On the scale of nations and the Old World, and on the scale of centuries - the problems are quite tricky. And I think the solutions just require a delicate touch and a push in just the right place.

All I'm seeing is a repeating of the same argument without evidence to back it up. Yes, the initial "just monitor the flow of magic through the Altdorf nexus" buy-in is easy. But scaling up isn't free; in fact, it gets exponentially more time-consuming and difficult to justify. Wizard-hours are not a plant that you grow, it's a limited resource that you can't easily make more of in any reasonable time frame.

We don't want tons of wizards getting involved in the existing leylines all over the place, because a lot of the wizards the Colleges have are either Journeymen--and are explicitly taught to not mess with Waystones except under specific circumstances--or Magisters who have much better things to do with their time than go around checking in on leylines and waystones that are going to be functioning just fine 99.99% of the time.

There is no "blazing a trail" here, because we can't pull in the manpower and resources of entire states into this, because the Colleges are the magical resources of the Empire and while it can spare wizard hours and resources for stuff like building permanent infrastructure, it cannot spare that for regular maintenance (which isn't even required) and monitoring of the entire damn network down to every leyline.

To paraphrase an early part of the quest: "I've got an army of thousands of peasants armed with crossbows and spears, and I've got ten cannon. You (the wizard) are the cannon. Find a way to make this work with thousands of peasants instead of the precious few cannon that I have, and I'll consider it."

The Colleges already work to generally check in on waystones they know the locations of and make sure they're still in working order. But this is not "every waystone gets checked and monitored every year", and the wizard-hours to measure energy flows for a substantial amount of time at each waystone don't exist. And as a reminder, the waystone network sends energy in packets of varying size and composition, making the process of gathering useful data even harder and more time-consuming. This is the kind of thing that can work if you have wizards with the right skills and tools placed at key waystone nexuses year-round to measure the flow through that, but getting more granular is just not practical at all.

Well I certainly felt like I was repeating my argument - although I felt I'd made it poorly initially in my attempt at maximum brevity.

But it's just not an argument that spending lots of resources on monitoring the leylines is a fabulous idea. Yeah I gave a bunch of options for varying levels of involvement... But I also said that that wasn't the point of it all. Some of the options - using enchanted/runic items and perpetuals, very much address the limited wizards issue.

It's very much explicitly going for a 'how do we make this work with thousands of peasants' thing. I thought long and deeply about both the 'thousands of peasants' aspect and the 'blazing a trail in prague' thing - and I figured out current approach wasn't going far enough. I was figuring out current approach uses too much wizard-time, and doesn't leverage the resources nations do have.

The aim is to move towards bringing every echelon of the nation into involvement with the network, giving other institutions (academic, religious) involvement, and forestalling political issues. The aim is to have those involvements be ongoing, have some direct benefits, benefit other involved parties, and make more clear by their nature the benefits of involvement.

I know that I never really fleshed out much of the extras to cement that, so I can see why it comes across as an attempt to set up leylines monitoring on a national scale for some benefits from that.... But that's really not what it's about.

The plan would be to have a national office that allocates duties, rights, and responsibilities in regards to the network. It provides means for the colleges, cults, counts, academics, and others to share the benefits of each others involvement.



It's also not an entirely serious suggestion, at least here. I am rather serious about the merits of the approach... But trying to use these boons for it is really hamfisted. Personally, I want the airship.

I'm not sure this sort of direction is really one the thread will ever consider going down (mostly because it would be quite boring to read about). But nevertheless I've always enjoyed reading everyone else's ideas and theories so I thought I'd start talking about mine.

So sorry if I've been unclear or appear to be advocating for something silly - it it's not really about the leylines monitoring or the local maps directly... I just wantedy initial post to be as brief as possible so as not to bore people.
 
Got a couple of ideas I want to bounce off the thread.

Idea one: We propose to the colleges that if we provide the AV and equipment they will provide a set of eight powerstones (and a perpetual to babysit the equipment) and we split the resulting Orbs 1-7. No doubt we can find uses for an Ulgu Orb.

Idea two: We save up another boatload of CF, but another full set of powerstones, hire a perpetual or Runesmith apprentice to babysit for a month and make a full set of Orbs for use by WEBMAT wizards.
 
Considering her wildly varying academic output, I could actually see somebody theorizing that she's going around stealing other peoples' work, erasing their memory of it, and publishing it under her own name.
I imagine many people would be offended on her behalf if they hear that theory. Notably dwarves due to how much pride they take in doing things themselves they would see the accusation of stealing someone else's work and passing it off as your own as a one of the worst claims you can make against someone.
 
Considering her wildly varying academic output, I could actually see somebody theorizing that she's going around stealing other peoples' work, erasing their memory of it, and publishing it under her own name.
I mean, in this very update Dragomas had the gall to ask in front of us "Hey Algard, are you taking stuff your spies or other unsavory sources found out and using Mathilde as a mouthpiece to put them into respectable circulation?" So "'Mathilde Weber' is actually a cover name for the research of a lot of different people" is clearly a theory people have seriously entertained.
 
I mean, in this very update Dragomas had the gall to ask in front of us "Hey Algard, are you taking stuff your spies or other unsavory sources found out and using Mathilde as a mouthpiece to put them into respectable circulation?" So "'Mathilde Weber' is actually a cover name for the research of a lot of different people" is clearly a theory people have seriously entertained.

To be fair to Dragomas this particular insight does sound like something you would find in a Chaos Dwarf's grimoire.
 
I mean, in this very update Dragomas had the gall to ask in front of us "Hey Algard, are you taking stuff your spies or other unsavory sources found out and using Mathilde as a mouthpiece to put them into respectable circulation?" So "'Mathilde Weber' is actually a cover name for the research of a lot of different people" is clearly a theory people have seriously entertained.
It's such a wild thing to ask in front of everyone given all the rumors about Algard having so many dubious books. I love Dragomas' bluntness.

It really says a lot about this vote that we barely made mention of that.
 
It's such a wild thing to ask in front of everyone given all the rumors about Algard having so many dubious books. I love Dragomas' bluntness.

It really says a lot about this vote that we barely made mention of that.
Might also be a deliberate setup for Algard to clarify things, so the question doesn't go unanswered and doubt tarnishes Mathilde's accomplishment. Dragomas is noted as a lot more willing to play politics than most Ambers. That's one of the big reasons he's lasted so long as SP, not just that he can turn into a weasel dragon. Though that helps a lot.
 
I assumed Dragomas was asking if it was laundered insights because Algard is the resident expert on liminal realms and pocket dimensions. And Algard saying it's the first he's hearing about this is exactly how it seems
 
I mean, in this very update Dragomas had the gall to ask in front of us "Hey Algard, are you taking stuff your spies or other unsavory sources found out and using Mathilde as a mouthpiece to put them into respectable circulation?" So "'Mathilde Weber' is actually a cover name for the research of a lot of different people" is clearly a theory people have seriously entertained.
From an outside perspective, Mathilde's academic career looks weird.

Her entire Journeying, she writes a single niche paper that's rather dry and technical. That's it, and it's what she graduates with. Said Journey had her be Spymistress of Stirland, which surely affords lots of opportunities for studying strange things and writing papers on them, right?

Wrong, because she was utterly swamped from the get-go. She had the responsibilities of Spymistress with less than nothing to work with. She had to establish the most basic infrastructure of her job singlehandedly, starting with asking another member of the council for any budget at all. Before she could establish any kind of information network to work with, she had to find the feudal contracts and tax documentation that had been stolen by her predecessor, and in terms of crises for a brand-new Journeywoman working alone to be saddled with, that is pretty ridiculously high up there. She spent her Journey scrambling to bring some semblance of security, awareness, law, and stability to Stirland that had been so thoroughly undermined that there were Sylvanian agents with necromantic spells embedded within them working at Eagle Castle.

And then, just when she's starting to get her feet under her, the Elector Count decides preparing for a war against Sylvania now is less painful than waiting for Sylvania to come to Stirland, especially with Anton successfully hiring a dragon. So now she's taking part in an invasion of bloody Sylvania.

That is the environment in which she grabs the first thing she can find to write a paper about and tries to churn one out. She publishes it at a time when the war completely overshadows her academic efforts in every way, and then her life gets turned upside-down when her Elector Count dies in front of her and she has to take command and finish what he started.

It's only when she, a researcher and investigator at heart, gets to settle down in Karak Eight Peaks--where her job is literally to tackle everything weird--that she suddenly starts publishing papers like crazy on a wide range of topics. I would argue that this stems from two things: the foresight and luck to be somewhere where lots of weird and notable things are happening, and the fact that she was not overloaded with immense problems she needed to singlehandedly solve ASAP or there would be disastrous consequences. Not having a staggering backlog of the higher priority than any academic curiosity just to get to the start line for your very important job makes a hell of a difference.

But again, from the outside, her academic output goes from "barely there" for years to "taking off like a rocket" all of the sudden and never stopping.
 
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It's only when she, a researcher and investigator at heart, gets to settle down in Karak Eight Peaks--where her job is literally to tackle everything weird--that she suddenly starts publishing papers like crazy on a wide range of topics. I would argue that this stems from two things: the foresight and luck to be somewhere where lots of weird and notable things are happening, and the fact that she was not overloaded with immense problems she needed to singlehandedly solve ASAP or there would be disastrous consequences.
I mean you could argue that, but I think more than anything about her circumstances Mathilde's influx of paper writing came about because of Max and the Room of Serenity. Without those insane windfalls, I doubt Mathilde would have ever become a prolific academic paper writer, no matter how busy she technically was or how many weird things she poked at.
 
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Yeah, Mathilde's writing career mostly took off because she got a really, really nice writing room.

Which just proves that all those luxuries within are of direct and practical use!

No Dwarven air conditioning, no Aetheric Vitae!
 
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I mean, in this very update Dragomas had the gall to ask in front of us "Hey Algard, are you taking stuff your spies or other unsavory sources found out and using Mathilde as a mouthpiece to put them into respectable circulation?" So "'Mathilde Weber' is actually a cover name for the research of a lot of different people" is clearly a theory people have seriously entertained.
Nah. The real conspiricy theory is that Max is the secret genius and that Mathilde has some sort of blackmail over him and is stealing all the credit.

After all, basically our only solo paper was Mathilde's servicable at best graduation piece.

There is an entire Magda Wessen fanfiction sub-genre dedicated to this idea. Half of which has some thinly disguised reader avatar come in to "save" not!Max from the Evil! Magda Wessen.

The other half is very dedicated to exploring this blackmail dynamic with Magda in charge in .... lurid detail.

It's one for the Druchii and Skaven shelf.
 
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