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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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seekingflame said:
Don't forget that "God had revealed this to me in a vision" is both an absolutely valid thing and somehow is still rather unhelpful with each god somehow still can contradicting others. That is when they do decide to share and not just act mysterious about all of it.
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Fortunately, those are problems of the theology faculty. We don't talk to those lunatics here, there's a reason they're off campus
 
BurnNote said:
Fortunately, those are problems of the theology faculty. We don't talk to those lunatics here, there's a reason they're off campus
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All fine enough, until you want to do your thesis on the famously historic event of say... the battle of black fire pass or the life of a one Myrmidia.

Then those lunatics might very much want to talk to you. worse, they have a monopoly on most of the direct sources.
 
Boney said:
The existence of Savage Orcs hints that they might, but later lore does veer towards a more cultural answer to it - that Orcs escaping from slavery under the Chaos Dwarves spread knowledge of ironworking, and that some Orc tribes either never got the memo or rejected it as 'un-Orcy'.
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Truly must have been the great debate of the time.

More Kill'y but less Orc'y or More Orc'y but less kill'y?

A debate with no losers (losers be dead, you see.)
 
Lore alert, lore alert. Have been chewing through the Dwarf Players Guide during work break and saw this and thought it pog.
descendants of some of the Belthani are citizens of the Dwarf Holds and serve as herdmen, fishermen and farmers. Even have town names
 
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soulcake said:
Lore alert, lore alert. Have been chewing through the Dwarf Players Guide during work break and saw this and thought it pog.
descendants of some of the Belthani are citizens of the Dwarf Holds and serve as herdmen, fishermen and farmers. Even have town names
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Context for the thread:

Cubicle 7 just released a Dwarf player's guide. So, the first roleplay source about the Dwarfholds since 1e's Stone and Steel.


Soulcake, my only question- do they talk about the Minor Ancestor Gods at all?
 
soulcake said:
Lore alert, lore alert. Have been chewing through the Dwarf Players Guide during work break and saw this and thought it pog.
descendants of some of the Belthani are citizens of the Dwarf Holds and serve as herdmen, fishermen and farmers. Even have town names
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I really, really like that idea.
Especially because 4e earlier established that the dwarfs had been trading with the Belthani since before the Imperial tribes arrived. This certainly makes a lot more sense than the dwarfs seeing the people they've been working and trading with for centuries be conquered and exterminated and shrugging their shoulders.
 
Mopman43 said:
Soulcake, my only question- do they talk about the Minor Ancestor Gods at all?
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In a general sense. Nothing too new, gave a few examples of it. I need to read more in depth because I definitely skimmed, but some stuff is neat-ish that stuck out to me.
They gave Priests of the Ancestors new lore. The original Ancestor Priests were chosen by Gazul from the Runesmith Clans, and they squared the temporary Rune circle by having them be largely the domain of the Priests of the Ancestor Gods. Since they're all from Runesmith Clans but are of lesser talent with Runecraft than fullblown Runesmiths. Categorized Priests differently too. Its not to specific Ancestors, but to roles of Doom Priest, Forge Priest and Hearth Priest

I will also say this,

I will never forgive Cubicle 7 or GW depending on who implemented this change:
Valaya is no longer explicitly mentioned as the wife of both Grimnir and Grungni. Only the latter. They got rid of my Girl's reverse harem/throuple, unforgivable.
 
soulcake said:
Lore alert, lore alert. Have been chewing through the Dwarf Players Guide during work break and saw this and thought it pog.
descendants of some of the Belthani are citizens of the Dwarf Holds and serve as herdmen, fishermen and farmers. Even have town names
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I didn't realize Dwarfs ever have non Dwarfs as citizens of their holds
 
soulcake said:
I will never forgive Cubicle 7 or GW depending on who implemented this change:
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That's been a bit back-and-forth for awhile.

It looks like they still say that Morgrim was the son of Grimnir and Valaya, so maybe Grungni was Valaya's official husband but Dwarf society was perfectly fine with her having a sidepiece?
 
I wanna see longbeards complain about the progressive trend of monogamous marriages and how they're destroying dwarven civilization.
 
Speaking of setting stuff around Dawi, I'm curious- and I know this may have been answered before but fifteen thousand pages.

Official lore is that Khazalid is a secret language- the Dawi don't use it around outsiders, and according to the newly released 4e Dwarf Player's Guide, it's outright treason to teach it to non-Dawi, while in DL it's not nearly so harshly restricted. Is this Boney going by older lore on Khazalid, or a change to make working for the Dwarves easier?
 
More lore for the lore throne.

Grungni now has a named Pickaxe. Blidazdurakaz ('Lightning Pick-axe').

If we play Khazalid etymology-aroo we can deduce>

Durak - Stone
Az- Axe
therefore *Drumroll*
Blidaz - Lightning

Now to determine if Blidaz is itself either: its own word, another compound or just "Blid" using the "az" signifier
 
horngeek said:
Speaking of setting stuff around Dawi, I'm curious- and I know this may have been answered before but fifteen thousand pages.

Official lore is that Khazalid is a secret language- the Dawi don't use it around outsiders, and according to the newly released 4e Dwarf Player's Guide, it's outright treason to teach it to non-Dawi, while in DL it's not nearly so harshly restricted. Is this Boney going by older lore on Khazalid, or a change to make working for the Dwarves easier?
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It's probably entirely on the first. This quest started a long time ago and Boney can't reasonably rewrite it all, and I don't think there's any indication that it was downright illegal to know in previous editions.

I think I recall it being uncommon for humans to speak it, but humans on a campaign into the lost Karak Eight Peaks would eventually learn it if anyone would.
 
Some reasonable ways of squaring that circle, one or more of which may be true:
  • "Teaching it to someone untrustworthy (i.e. most non-dawi) is treason."
  • "You are responsible for what people do with the language which given the way knowledge of languages works means that initial instances of allowing others to learn the language worked their way to being treason eventually but realistically the cat's mostly out of the bag now".
  • "There are parts of khazalid that you don't ever share with outsiders, but you can work out and learn to use a reasonably functional khazalid pidgin without learning any of those parts and that's mostly what people mean when they say khazilid in practice."
 
horngeek said:
Speaking of setting stuff around Dawi, I'm curious- and I know this may have been answered before but fifteen thousand pages.

Official lore is that Khazalid is a secret language- the Dawi don't use it around outsiders, and according to the newly released 4e Dwarf Player's Guide, it's outright treason to teach it to non-Dawi, while in DL it's not nearly so harshly restricted. Is this Boney going by older lore on Khazalid, or a change to make working for the Dwarves easier?
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Here's the canonicity tier list for DL, from the WoQMs for FAQs threadmark:
Boney said:
Canonicity (for Quest purposes)
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.
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So as a rule of thumb, newly released 4e material would fall under Tier 5.
 
horngeek said:
Speaking of setting stuff around Dawi, I'm curious- and I know this may have been answered before but fifteen thousand pages.

Official lore is that Khazalid is a secret language- the Dawi don't use it around outsiders, and according to the newly released 4e Dwarf Player's Guide, it's outright treason to teach it to non-Dawi, while in DL it's not nearly so harshly restricted. Is this Boney going by older lore on Khazalid, or a change to make working for the Dwarves easier?
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Dwarves don't want it to be spread unnecessarily but recognize that the cat's out of the bag by now. Here's a quote from when we were discussing teaching Cython Khazalid so we didn't have to rely on Eltharin.
Boney said:
Dwarves don't want Khazalid floating around willy-nilly, but they're aware that you can't really keep the lid completely on a living language used by a far-flung community, and teaching it to a creature you're allying with is a sensible alternative to relying on bloody Eltharin.
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horngeek said:
Speaking of setting stuff around Dawi, I'm curious- and I know this may have been answered before but fifteen thousand pages.

Official lore is that Khazalid is a secret language- the Dawi don't use it around outsiders, and according to the newly released 4e Dwarf Player's Guide, it's outright treason to teach it to non-Dawi, while in DL it's not nearly so harshly restricted. Is this Boney going by older lore on Khazalid, or a change to make working for the Dwarves easier?
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Old lore has Khazalid being pretty widespread but Dwarves just being kind of grumpy about it being spoken by outsiders. The Cult of Sigmar uses Khazalid internally, and the Grand Theogonist traditionally takes a Dwarven name or epithet. The conceit of the book Grudgelore is that it's a human academic translating select portions of it into Reikspiel. There are all sorts of other examples of Dwarven texts ostensibly being translated for a human audience without it being treated as unusual in various boxouts in WFRP books. And it doesn't make any sense for it to be a secret that can be kept - there's a massive Dwarven diaspora that all speak Khazalid and it would only take one to let the cat out of the bag. And considering how many major Imperial cities are built on Dwarven ruins, there'd be a huge amount of accumulated writings to give impetus to the academics.

I use 4e when it sheds some light on previously unknown corners of the setting, but when it introduces things that don't just contradict old lore but just plain make no sense, I don't feel any need to even try to incorporate it.
 
Boney said:
Old lore has Khazalid being pretty widespread but Dwarves just being kind of grumpy about it being spoken by outsiders. The Cult of Sigmar uses Khazalid internally, and the Grand Theogonist traditionally takes a Dwarven name or epithet. The conceit of the book Grudgelore is that it's a human academic translating select portions of it into Reikspiel. There are all sorts of other examples of Dwarven texts ostensibly being translated for a human audience without it being treated as unusual in various boxouts in WFRP books. And it doesn't make any sense for it to be a secret that can be kept - there's a massive Dwarven diaspora that all speak Khazalid and it would only take one to let the cat out of the bag. And considering how many major Imperial cities are built on Dwarven ruins, there'd be a huge amount of accumulated writings to give impetus to the academics.

I use 4e when it sheds some light on previously unknown corners of the setting, but when it introduces things that don't just contradict old lore but just plain make no sense, I don't feel any need to even try to incorporate it.
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I mean if nothing else how would you even enforce the treason thing on the hundreds of thousands of dwarfs beyond the reach of the Karaz Ankor. Oh no, Grunki Beer-foot has taught his crew of Sartosan raiders Khazalid and it spread around the island, get the throng... wait, wait it is also being used by Silk Road traders who learned it from Chaos tribes that trade with the Dawi Zhar, Altdorf fences who learned it from the femous fence Yorek Diamond Eye oh yea and... every single tribe in southern and eastern Norsca who ended up integrating it into their language. That is a lot of throngs. :V
 
The main thing is that no dwarf will ever concede that a non-dwarf is speaking khazalid correctly. No matter how learned they will always complain that you're messing up the pronunciation and grammar.

(Matthilde is legally a dwarf so they're exempt from having to interrupt her to complain)
 
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The reason is probably that Dwarves mostly kept their language secret in Tolkien, and some WH-writer wanted to make a reference to that, without thinking how it fits in this world.
 
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