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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres said:
Yeah, we do. It's good that there are brown people in Warhammer, and it's bad you think I shouldn't say that. It is, however, good you think Angelform's racist ass shit doesn't belong in this thread.
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You know it is possible to both think that brown people belong in Warhammer and not to want to have this conversation in an unrelated quest thread. I do not think the experience of engaging with the thread for the players or the GM is improved by it. To be clear I am talking strictly on the question of 'should this be written?' I am perfectly fine debating worldbuilding implications of Guttra and her family as seen above.

Edit: Mathilde'd by the GM, hopefully that's the end of it.
 
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In slightly related but less inflammatory news.

A thought, and you know maybe someone already posted this but as The Dwarf Guy™ I feel the need to share.

So in an earlier post I made a theory about Khazalid Linguistic drift being the cause for the odd names of the Norse Dwarf Holds.

Karak a Drak(k) > Krak a Drak > Kraka Drak
etc etc.

In speaking with some others I was posed the question of why the Norse Holds used this specific "Hold of [Something]" naming convention instead of the Worlds Edge "[Something] Hold" basically why not Karak Drak instead of Karak a Drak

But then look at these quotes, the highlighted parts especially, in conjunction and a picture forms.
Boney said:
Daemon and Shartak and Fimir fought against Dragon and Elf and the cunning beings and their creations, and we begin to turn the transformed energies of the Ruinous Powers against them.

In the end, the greatest creation of the cunning beings were those they created by accident. With the great machines sealing the world against the Ruinous Powers, the combined beliefs of their creations had accumulated and grown into an entirely new form of life. When the cunning beings finally fled, we fought alongside the Gods instead. To defeat the inrushing of energies at the poles, we and the Gods and the Elves built the Great Vortex, and magic drained back out of the world, and Daemons shattered as the world grew inimical to them.
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Boney said:
He nods, and turns back to the fire. "We call the Ancestor Gods the Ancestor Gods, because we once had gods who were not our Ancestors," he says in an oddly detached tone as he stares at the fire. "Long ago, far to the south, the old gods were our teachers and our wardens. But their numbers dwindled over time, and when the time was right we escaped, thanks to Grungni and Valaya and Grimnir. But some of those that followed did so not because they desired freedom or venerated our three leaders, but because they mourned their teachers who one day had stopped visiting, and remembered their Names, and knew that such things never truly die and must linger on somewhere. Karag Dum was founded by those who most mistrusted the old gods, and claimed a home with its back to the Chaos Wastes, as Chaos was the only force that could rival the old gods. We watched with suspicion as the Dawi turned their backs on a mountain range that could be mined for a thousand thousand years to spread to all corners of the Old World. Why Ekrund, pinned between the Badlands and the sea? Why Norsca, the shattered remnants of another prison? Why the Middle Mountains, desolate and cursed? Why risk everything to travel across the Dark Lands and the Great Ocean, often never to be heard from again?
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Boney said:
That was the immediate payoff you were hoping for, but he doesn't stop there. He confirms not just the existence of Albion, but tells you something of its nature, or at least what Elven legend tells of its nature. It is, he says, one of the few intact remnants of what was once the northern half of the continent of the Old World, where the Old Ones made their stand against the forces of Chaos pouring in from the newly-formed Chaos Wastes. The Sea of Claws, the Sea of Chaos, and the jagged mountains of Norsca were all carved out by weaponry and magical puissance unimaginable in modern times, or so he claims, destroying the massive verdant paradise that stretched for hundreds of miles across the top of an unimaginably large plateau. It is said that the Old Ones left the world before that war ended with the creation of the Great Vortex, but the Vortex was built atop a nascent Waystone Network consisting of the standing stones the Old Ones left behind, and when the Elves sought to expand it out into the rest of the world, they found that Albion had already joined itself to Ulthuan.
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Now consider this.

The four big Norse Dwarf holds name themselves after the following:

Drak(k) - Dragon or Monster
Ornsmotek - Eagle
Ravnsvake - Ravens
Dorden - Thunder

Consider the Norscans use these names
Dragonfolk - Lizardmen
Eagle and Raven - Tzeentch (here's where its tricky, but this could be an usurpation of an older deity's themes when the Norscans fell to chaos)

It isn't an insane thought to pose that the Norse Dwarfs may vaguely remember or even fully recorded the collapse of the Polar Gates.

Going by canon Grungni's messengers arrived just in time to tell them to seal their Holds before shit got bad...

...but maybe not all of them sealed their Holds? Maybe some marched out, in the name of their teachers, long lost, but perhaps returned? Maybe some of those teachers died there, in that great conflict of Mortals, Dragons and Gods, and they chose to honour them in a way?

[Serious Crackpot brainstorming beyond this point]
Maybe the Norse Dwarf Holds are where they specifically for a reason. A Hold, a Temple, a tomb, maybe all three?

Spooky music plays

Anyway back to writing my own shit.
 
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hugo239111 said:
Regardless of any set "this is where humans are from, all humans are from here and evolved from this stock" convienant answer I don't think there is one. The Gods certainly wouldn't admit to their followers if they found a set and used some old Ones tools to start copy pasting so they could grow stronger. The Dawi stayed in their mountains and only marked cultures that interacted with them directly, IE Imperial tribes. The Asur could possibly know, but would you trust another species to tell you the truth of your own origins? The best guess that I could have to the answers couldn't be confirmed without going there, yet there are much more pressing matters in the present than the ancient past.
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Something I think worse noting is that the dwarves didn't stay in their mountains. It's just that the dwarves who lived in the lowlands got a pasting during the War of the Beard, then were ruined by the climate change associated with the Slann's continental tidying up, and then were driven back to the mountain holds as refugees when the greenskins moves west in strength.
 
All this talk of Warhammer ripping of Tolkien and not a single mention of Moorcock. For shame.
(Yes, discussion was about dwarves, and those bits were taken from Tolkien. I'm a Moorcock fanboy.)
 
Andres said:
On the subject of dwarfs, black dwarfs exist. WFRP 4e: Patrons of the Old World page 16, Guttra Morsbinssniz
She's from Marienburg.

There was also an aeldari book that came out for Wrath and Glory a little while ago that had art of a black eldar, so I think black elves probably exist too.
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Why are her proportions so human? Where is the renowned Dawi stoutness? Dwarfs are not minimized humans, they are supposed to be broad and barrely.
 
Alratan said:
Something I think worse noting is that the dwarves didn't stay in their mountains. It's just that the dwarves who lived in the lowlands got a pasting during the War of the Beard, then were ruined by the climate change associated with the Slann's continental tidying up, and then were driven back to the mountain holds as refugees when the greenskins moves west in strength.
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DragonParadox said:
The answer definitely exists because it happened and also because if no one else the Slann would remember it and they do not have any reason to lie, there is just the small problem that they do not talk to anyone.

So about reconstructing that Old One Language... :V
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The answer exists simply because there has to be one, the point I'm trying to drill down to is that it is inherently unknowable. There are the gods, the Old Ones and a dozen other polities that could manipulate a primitive human. The end all be all answer won't ever be found because of the lack of combination of knowledge

A good example is the waystone project, that was a half dozen organizations that had seperate information and view points on the exact same thing they were looking at. Slightly different methods and drift from ancient past muddied the waters. Now that they are combining information again there is a path back to the originators of the network. But at the end of the day the information isn't the goal, it's survival
 
hugo239111 said:
The answer exists simply because there has to be one, the point I'm trying to drill down to is that it is inherently unknowable. There are the gods, the Old Ones and a dozen other polities that could manipulate a primitive human. The end all be all answer won't ever be found because of the lack of combination of knowledge

A good example is the waystone project, that was a half dozen organizations that had seperate information and view points on the exact same thing they were looking at. Slightly different methods and drift from ancient past muddied the waters. Now that they are combining information again there is a path back to the originators of the network. But at the end of the day the information isn't the goal, it's survival
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One of these things is an engineering problem which happens to have varying solutions, the other is a historical question which has one answer, otherwise known as what actually happened. The argument being made here is akin to saying 'there are several recipes for concrete guess we never will know where the Indo-European migrations started' only it's not the Indo-European migrations it's more like something grandpa saw in his youth, with the complication that grandpa is a narcoleptic toad.
 
DragonParadox said:
One of these things is an engineering problem which happens to have varying solutions, the other is a historical question which has one answer, otherwise known as what actually happened. The argument being made here is akin to saying 'there are several recipes for concrete guess we never will know where the Indo-European migrations started' only it's not the Indo-European migrations it's more like something grandpa saw in his youth, with the complication that grandpa is a narcoleptic toad.
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Agreed the end result is pretty much what Mathilde said at the beginning of the project. It was so obvious no one bothered writing it down.
 
Talon TigerDino said:
Why are her proportions so human? Where is the renowned Dawi stoutness? Dwarfs are not minimized humans, they are supposed to be broad and barrely.
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Andres said:
I think it might be the clothes and pose obscuring her figure. Might just be the artist didn't get it quite right though.
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I suspect that the artist might not have thought her to be a Dwarf at all. It's not in her backstory at any point. It's just listed on her character sheet.
 
DragonParadox said:
One of these things is an engineering problem which happens to have varying solutions, the other is a historical question which has one answer, otherwise known as what actually happened. The argument being made here is akin to saying 'there are several recipes for concrete guess we never will know where the Indo-European migrations started' only it's not the Indo-European migrations it's more like something grandpa saw in his youth, with the complication that grandpa is a narcoleptic toad.
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Also, Tale of Metal exists. There seems no particular reason that spells designed to function on other forms of crafted material couldn't also exist.

Archeology is in many ways much, much more rewarding in this setting.
 
So, who is going to control the town at the end of the bridge? The empire or the elves?

You would think it's a simple question, but nations are always iffy on territorial boundaries, even with swamps.

Whoever controls that end of the bridge is saying 'we own the land at least this far in'.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So, who is going to control the town at the end of the bridge? The empire or the elves?

You would think it's a simple question, but nations are always iffy on territorial boundaries, even with swamps.

Whoever controls that end of the bridge is saying 'we own the land at least this far in'.
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Middleland most likely, the elves would not want to expose their people beyond their 'moat' of swamps.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So, who is going to control the town at the end of the bridge? The empire or the elves?

You would think it's a simple question, but nations are always iffy on territorial boundaries, even with swamps.

Whoever controls that end of the bridge is saying 'we own the land at least this far in'.
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Which end, the Eonir or the Middenland end?
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
The Middenland end, the other end I'm assuming would be well within Eonir zone.

It's the other end that is a bit blurred on who owns what.
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Middenland, the elves just don't like the idea of anyone being able to easily cross the swamp, with a remote deactivating bridge that isn't a problem and so they should be fine with having their direct human allies claim it.

(Though if they offer Mathilde the honor of the trade post of all trade post I wouldn't be opposed...)
 
I suppose it depends on whether Laurelorn feels the need to control the other end of the bridge. They probably won't, so it's free real estate for Middenland. But if they do need to control it, then they will probably push to occupy it for themselves.
 
The relevant section when Mathilde proposed it says that one of the two towers is on the ruins of a Middenland town...

Boney said:
[...] The more practical remainder are cautious but not quite skeptical, reasoning that as long as the infrastructure is mostly on their side of the swamp, they can always just knock it over and sink it into the swamp, should it contain any unwanted trickery. With sufficiently vigorous knocking and a sufficiently deep swamp, there's not much that doesn't work on.

[...]

[...]By the time the year starts to draw to a close the foundations are being laid down for the towers, one atop a southern rise of the Misty Hills and the other among the ruins of Vorbegwerk. Without any further assistance from yourself it will likely take several years for the path to be completed, but it is underway.
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...But, Mathilde's first proper entry into Laurelorn notes that it was abandoned by the Graf's decree; and from one of the same turn's social actions we can assume he felt comfortable doing so (and presumably giving that land to the Eonir) because it was poor and small enough that it didn't show up on most maps.

Boney said:
Your earlier foray into Laurelorn had begun at Salzenmund and had taken you to the destroyed Nordland village of Oldenlitz. You're certain that was not simply a matter of the most convenient meeting place for the Vicereine, but instead a specific impression that she wished to convey. You suspect today's route to be no different, as you're directed to a specific milestone in the Schadensumpf that, according to the records you checked in Middenheim while you were passing through, is the nearest point on the road to the site of the battle where Middenland fought alongside Laurelorn against the Beastmen. You've decided to take it as a hopeful sign, as the Elves could just as easily have directed you towards the nearby village of Vorbegwerk which has been abandoned by the Graf's decree and is quickly being reclaimed by the swamp that once sustained it. That would have set a very different tone for this meeting.
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Boney said:
You're not entirely comfortable with an Elf speaking so casually of slain humans, but if they were caught poaching by Middenland's patrols they'd face the same fate, just from a noose instead of a bowstring. "And the village of Kammendun?" you ask carefully. Vorbegwerk in the north of the Schadensumpf was a tiny village too small to appear on most maps and too poor for anyone to bother to work out who they should pay tax to, but Kammendun in the south is significantly larger and part of the Graf's demesne.
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It seems quite likely that both towers will end up controlled by Laurelorn. But who knows, since the first quote above says that they're fine with the infrastructure as long as they can destroy it in case of some treason, maybe they'd accede to letting the Vorbegwerk tower be held by Middenland?

I wouldn't count on it, though.
 
Boney said:
Even without considering SV rules - which shouldn't be put completely out of mind in the first place - there are ways to deal with the peoples that get lumped together as 'Chaos Marauders' without going full Crusader Kings 2 Death Sounds Dot MP3. You just make them a better offer. It doesn't change them overnight, but over time, more and more people are gonna take the better offer because Chaos demonstrably sucks for the majority. Nordland did it to the Norscan settlers who moved in after half the province died from the Black Plague. The Gospodars did it to themselves and then to the Ungols. Marienburg has already halfway done it to the southern coast of Norsca. The constant churn of the Kurgan tribes demonstrates that they have to actively work to keep it from happening to them.

When people talk about the self-defeating nature of Chaos, they're not just being trite. Chaos sucks for everyone except the Sigvalds of the world. Anything but Chaos is as much an existential threat to Chaos as Chaos is to everything else. The ultimate victory of Chaos is an apocalypse because it is only safe in a vacuum.
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There are old, I want to say Chaos (for obvious reasons) Army Books, where the mortal forces of Chaos regard themselves as an essentially liberatory force which seems like the sort of thing that would end up arising in Chaos theology if such a threat and deal ended up presenting itself, true or not.

I mostly mention this because I enjoy warbling about Chaos and old army books.
 
Voikirium said:
There are old, I want to say Chaos (for obvious reasons) Army Books, where the mortal forces of Chaos regard themselves as an essentially liberatory force which seems like the sort of thing that would end up arising in Chaos theology if such a threat and deal ended up presenting itself, true or not.

I mostly mention this because I enjoy warbling about Chaos and old army books.
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It does have just enough truth to it to make good propaganda, Chaos does free one from the 'limitations' of morality and ultimately mortality in the form of daemon princedom, but really cultists do that all the time. Tzeench claims to speak from freedom, Nurgle for mercy, Slaanesh for truth and self perfection, Khorne for courage and valor. Really all pushing into the Steppe would do is force the Chaos elites in the Marrauder tribes to dust off the old book of lies that they never had to use before on account of being too strong to challange
 
DragonParadox said:
It does have just enough truth to it to make good propaganda, Chaos does free one from the 'limitations' of morality and ultimately mortality in the form of daemon princedom, but really cultists do that all the time. Tzeench claims to speak from freedom, Nurgle for mercy, Slaanesh for truth and self perfection, Khorne for courage and valor. Really all pushing into the Steppe would do is force the Chaos elites in the Marrauder tribes to dust off the old book of lies that they never had to use before on account of being too strong to challange
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I distinctly recall it being more good faith on the part of mortals than that would imply, but unfortunately I can't find the post and I'm not generally in the business of spending a supper's worth of money on books older than I am so I don't have the book itself to look at.
 
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