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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I don't think that elfcation will have much interaction with the White Tower. We're going to the Shadowlands. We'll get brownie points with Nagarythians, but not much else out of it. In terms of diplomatic connections in Ulthuan.

About the Old One texts, Laurelorn was a colony of Ulthuan back in the day. Ulthuan probably has copies of a significant portion of those scrolls. It's not something that would shock Ulthuan. Neither are they likely to earn Mathilde significant brownie points with it.
 
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MrHobbit said:
I don't think that elfcation will have much interaction with the White Tower. We're going to the Shadowlands. We'll get brownie points with Nagarythians, but not much else out of it. In terms of diplomatic connections in Ulthuan.

About the Old One texts, Laurelorn was a colony of Ulthuan back in the day. Ulthuan probably has copies of a significant portion of those scrolls. It's not something that would shock Ulthuan. Neither is are they likely to get significant brownie points with it.
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The main question would be if they survived the Sundering intact. There was an awful lot of destruction, in both the war and the cataclysm. The Library of Mourning is substantially older than the White Tower.
 
Mopman43 said:
The main question would be if they survived the Sundering intact. There was an awful lot of destruction, in both the war and the cataclysm. The Library of Mourning is substantially older than the White Tower.
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The main question is how much of the Vault comes from texts uncovered after the War of the Beard. Caledor II reasserted Ulthuan's control over the colonies. There were seven hundred years from the end of the Sundering to the end of Ulthuan's withdrawal. That's enough time for copies to be made and returned to Ulthuan. It is not impossible that some of them were lost in the interim period between Caradryel and Bel-Korhadris. But they should still have the majority of scrolls from the time of withdrawal.
 
MrHobbit said:
The main question is how much of the Vault comes from texts uncovered after the War of the Beard. Caledor II reasserted Ulthuan's control over the colonies. There were seven hundred years from the end of the Sundering to the end of Ulthuan's withdrawal. That's enough time for copies to be made and returned to Ulthuan. It is not impossible that some of them were lost in the interim period between Caradryel and Bel-Korhadris. But they should still have the majority of scrolls from the time of withdrawal.
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Caledor asserted Ulthuan's control for all of above five mintues before starting a war with the Dwarfs (well, ok, we don't actually have a timeline AFAIK, but absolute complete maximum is 200 years, and I imagine the actual period is far less than that). And I don't think he (or anyone!)necessarily cared about copying texts over. It was only when Bel-Korhadris had the White Tower built that Ulthaun engaged in a policy of knowledge preservation after all (the Tower containing copies of everything) while before, I suspect various Princes, Lords, cities and Kingdoms had separate libraries that didn't really share knowledge. If that wasn't the case then the destruction of the Libraries of Caledor or Saphethion wouldn't have mattered, but they clearly did.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Caledor asserted Ulthuan's control for all of above five mintues before starting a war with the Dwarfs (well, ok, we don't actually have a timeline AFAIK, but absolute complete maximum is 200 years, and I imagine the actual period is far less than that). And I don't think he (or anyone!)necessarily cared about copying texts over. It was only when Bel-Korhadris had the White Tower built that Ulthaun engaged in a policy of knowledge preservation after all (the Tower containing copies of everything) while before, I suspect various Princes, Lords, cities and Kingdoms had separate libraries that didn't really share knowledge. If that wasn't the case then the destruction of the Libraries of Caledor or Saphethion wouldn't have mattered, but they clearly did.
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The only source I know of that says something on the matter, Archives of the Empire, Vol I, states that Caledor II reasserted control -2174 IC. The War of the Beard started pretty much two centuries after that. Even by elven terms, two centuries is a long time. It doesn't need to have been by Caledor II personally. There would have been an endless number of Ulthuani princes with the influence to have copies made of those texts.

The Library of Mourning is a completely separate entity to the other libraries that would have existed around the world. Recall that Ulthuan kept the secrets of how to build waystones and modify the network to itself. The destruction of the Libraries of Caledor and Saphethion mattered because Ulthuan kept a lot of knowledge centralized, to improve the political power of the people and institutions who held that knowledge. These Old Ones scrolls were originally inscribed in the colonies. There would be no point to the research happening in the colonies if it didn't eventually make its way back to Ulthuan.

Edit: I forgot who had the colony founded: the Everqueen. Canon says that it was a Handmaiden acting on her own during the Sundering to study Old One artifacts. It's pretty sensible to assume that in Divided Loyalties the Everqueen had a similar goal. There is a pretty long list of elves who would be interested in the results. That the literal Everqueen is on the list highly suggests that Ulthuan still has the texts.
 
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MrHobbit said:
I don't think that elfcation will have much interaction with the White Tower. We're going to the Shadowlands. We'll get brownie points with Nagarythians, but not much else out of it. In terms of diplomatic connections in Ulthuan.
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Teclis knows about the project and was quite happy with it. He presumably knows Mathilde is the main driver. He can't make the time to go to the Colleges, but if she's here anyway?

Well, in that case it's just a question of this can be used to piss off other elves. Like inviting her and making everyone call her Loremaster because she is. That would have extra hilarity if someone then challenges her and she pulls out the greatsword and turns out to be pretty damn good.
Or he could just make snide remarks about how cool and smart and skilled this human is to have managed something do many others failed at.
 
Just a stray thought I have had recently: one of the many weaknesses vampires may have is ithilmar. In fact, the Strigoi we faced during bookmining expedition had such a weakness. With that in mind, could we perhaps establish some sort of deal between vampire hunters and Eonir so that the elves would provide the hunters with ithilmar arrowheads? Not for free obviously.
 
Altom said:
Just a stray thought I have had recently: one of the many weaknesses vampires may have is ithilmar. In fact, the Strigoi we faced during bookmining expedition had such a weakness. With that in mind, could we perhaps establish some sort of deal between vampire hunters and Eonir so that the elves would provide the hunters with ithilmar arrowheads? Not for free obviously.
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The whole reason we did the Ithilmar trade is that the Eonir are desperate for more Ithilmar because the only source of new metal is in Caledor and the Asur are not selling. I really doubt they would part with any of their finite reserves.
 
BurnNote said:
Teclis knows about the project and was quite happy with it. He presumably knows Mathilde is the main driver. He can't make the time to go to the Colleges, but if she's here anyway?

Well, in that case it's just a question of this can be used to piss off other elves. Like inviting her and making everyone call her Loremaster because she is. That would have extra hilarity if someone then challenges her and she pulls out the greatsword and turns out to be pretty damn good.
Or he could just make snide remarks about how cool and smart and skilled this human is to have managed something do many others failed at.
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Boney is already being generous by allowing us to only use three AP for the trip rather than four. Poking at the extra-Nagarythe content of the elfcation to hard, I think, is a great way to dissolve that abstraction.

The point of elfcation is to learn how Nagarythians kill Druchii. Mathilde isn't going to be broadcasting her presence in Lothern. Why would she? Even assuming Teclis would want to invite Mathilde to the White Tower to annoy some elves, which I don't see evidence of, it's out of the way. The quickest route from Lothern to the Shadowlands that Mathilde is likely to be allowed use of is by boat sailing around the Outer Kingdoms. Saphery is one of the Inner Kingdoms.
 
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BurnNote said:
Like inviting her and making everyone call her Loremaster because she is.
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Loremasters: "Ah! The famous silver savage! You've managed to make quite a stir for one of your short-lived kind. I do believe you've managed to personally annoy the Phoenix king with your spotty translation of Arsanil's boasting, and Hoeth only knows how many you've upset in the white tower. Now then, magister-"

Teclis: *coughs* "it's loremaster, actually."

Loremasters: "What!?! No! She hasn't studied in the white tower, she hasn't even-"

Teclis: "It's a dwarf title."
 
Blackout said:
The whole reason we did the Ithilmar trade is that the Eonir are desperate for more Ithilmar because the only source of new metal is in Caledor and the Asur are not selling. I really doubt they would part with any of their finite reserves.
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Not to mention that plain old mundane silver is a good bit more commonplace as a weakness to begin with.
 
MrHobbit said:
Boney is already being generous by allowing us to only use three AP for the trip rather than four. Poking at the extra-Nagarythe content of the elfcation to hard, I think, is a great way to dissolve that abstraction.

The point of elfcation is to learn how Nagarythians kill Druchii. Mathilde isn't going to be broadcasting her presence in Lothern. Why would she? Even assuming Teclis would want to invite Mathilde to the White Tower to annoy some elves, which I don't see evidence of, it's out of the way. The quickest route from Lothern to the Shadowlands that Mathilde is likely to be allowed use of is by boat sailing around the Outer Kingdoms. Saphery is one of the Inner Kingdoms.
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My assumption is that it would either be one option during the mini turn, which means there's oppertunity cost, or a social vote.

I think Teclis would invite her if he knows, because he really likes humans, and fucking with elves. And it's at least plausible that he all be informed.
 
BurnNote said:
My assumption is that it would either be one option during the mini turn, which means there's oppertunity cost, or a social vote.

I think Teclis would invite her if he knows, because he really likes humans, and fucking with elves. And it's at least plausible that he all be informed.
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Ulthuan is a continent. You can't just have a jaunt on to Saphery from Lothern while traveling to Nagarythe. I could see visiting Tor Yvresse and Eltharion, but not Saphery. Word would have to travel from Lothern to wherever Teclis is, probably the White Tower. Then Teclis's invitation would have to reach Lothern in time before Mathilde gets on a ship to Nagarythe. Visiting Lothern isn't Mathilde's goal. It's a side quest. She's just going to take in the sites, maybe buy a few souvenirs, and set out.

Teclis does have a fondness for humans and messing with elves. But still remember that Teclis, for all his diplomatic incapability, is still an Asur prince and advisor to the Phoenix King. There is no benefit to calling Mathilde to the White Tower. There was a benefit to convincing Finubar to share information about the Waystone Network.
 
Glau said:
Loremasters: "Ah! The famous silver savage! You've managed to make quite a stir for one of your short-lived kind. I do believe you've managed to personally annoy the Phoenix king with your spotty translation of Arsanil's boasting, and Hoeth only knows how many you've upset in the white tower. Now then, magister-"

Teclis: *coughs* "it's loremaster, actually."

Loremasters: "What!?! No! She hasn't studied in the white tower, she hasn't even-"

Teclis: "It's a dwarf title."
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Mathilde is begining to repair the wounds of the War of Vengeance by being the first dwarf to visit Ulthan in literal millennia.
It's just like Eike said.
Boney said:
When she engages in diplomacy, she does not do so in the traditional means and methods of diplomats and ambassadors. In a world of circuitous maneuvers she charts a course directly towards her intended destination. When such methods fail, they are the hallmark of one completely inept at diplomacy; when they succeed, they alter the very course of history.
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MrHobbit said:
Ulthuan is a continent. You can't just have a jaunt on to Saphery from Lothern while traveling to Nagarythe. I could see visiting Tor Yvresse and Eltharion
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Nagarythe is on the opposite end of the continent from Lothern, right? I wonder what sort of a tour we are going to get going there and back. Also, I wonder if we get sent by giant eagle or something for time reasons.

If so, we totally need to talk shit about how our personal gyrocopter is better.
 
Glau said:
Nagarythe is on the opposite end of the continent from Lothern, right? I wonder what sort of a tour we are going to get going there and back. Also, I wonder if we get sent by giant eagle or something for time reasons.

If so, we totally need to talk shit about how our personal gyrocopter is better.
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I imagine we'll ride an Elf ship through the Inner Sea, dock in Ellyrion, then head to Nagarythe through the Phoenix Gate. I believe that'd be the fastest route at least.
 
Glau said:
Nagarythe is on the opposite end of the continent from Lothern, right? I wonder what sort of a tour we are going to get going there and back. Also, I wonder if we get sent by giant eagle or something for time reasons.

If so, we totally need to talk shit about how our personal gyrocopter is better.
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You're right, it is on the opposite side of Ulthuan. Lothern is actually quite a bit out of the way for Mathilde. Tor Yvresse is actually a lot closer to the Old World and Nagarythe. Daroir specified Lothern, though the quickest route is to sail to Rokhame, then sail further to Nagarythe.

Ulthuan has sky-cutters, but I don't think it is likely that Mathilde will get to ride one, or a great eagle. Not for what is basically an internship.

Mopman43 said:
I imagine we'll ride an Elf ship through the Inner Sea, dock in Ellyrion, then head to Nagarythe through the Phoenix Gate. I believe that'd be the fastest route at least.
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Sea travel is pretty much always quicker than even horse travel though. There's not an insignificant amount of land between the shores of the Inner Sea and the Annulii Mountains. It's definitely quicker than traveling through mountain passes. The quickest route is probably to sail around the coasts of Caledor and Tiranoc. Though there is a river that feeds into the inner sea that originates near either the Phoenix or Dragon Gate.

Doesn't the Phoenix Gate border Avelorn? Seventh edition's map says that the Dragon and Phoenix Gates border Avelorn, while the Eagle, Griffon, and Unicorn gates border Ellyrion. Though 8e places the Dragon Gate much more to the south-west, over the river that separates the two kingdoms.
 
MrHobbit said:
Ulthuan is a continent. You can't just have a jaunt on to Saphery from Lothern while traveling to Nagarythe. I could see visiting Tor Yvresse and Eltharion, but not Saphery. Word would have to travel from Lothern to wherever Teclis is, probably the White Tower. Then Teclis's invitation would have to reach Lothern in time before Mathilde gets on a ship to Nagarythe. Visiting Lothern isn't Mathilde's goal. It's a side quest. She's just going to take in the sites, maybe buy a few souvenirs, and set out.

Teclis does have a fondness for humans and messing with elves. But still remember that Teclis, for all his diplomatic incapability, is still an Asur prince and advisor to the Phoenix King. There is no benefit to calling Mathilde to the White Tower. There was a benefit to convincing Finubar to share information about the Waystone Network.
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On the one hand, you are correct. On the other hand, going to the White Tower would guarantee that Mathilde, who has been noted to prefer Verena over Hoeth because she believes that Verena's posture is more active concerning threats to knowledge and the world and because Verena has a sword, would meet the Swordmasters of Hoeth, an order dedicated to the god comprising more skilful sword wielders than arguably any other organisation in the setting that also happens to be Ulthuan's equivalent of the Grey Order in its function. This would be extremely funny.

(She might still meet them elsewhere, of course; nonetheless!)
 
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mathymancer said:
I was about to say that they do but we're not getting those from the Ithilmar deal, since that doesn't include magical subjects, but actually the deal does include magical topics, it's just been awhile and I forgot. You might be thinking "wait so why did you even post this" which is a fair question, and the answer is that writing a library post caused me to take a look at our library, and while looking at our library I happened to notice a recent edit:
Boney said:
Old One Vault - A heavily secured archive of copies of scrolls in an unknown language, allegedly detailing experiments they performed at the dawn of the world.
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Neat! But also terrible; I beg this thread to not immediately embark on a 14AP project to translate this thing at the expense of our existing projects.
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I propose we ask Deathfang if he can read Old One script.
 
WestOrEast said:
  1. Would the elves know about Mathilde being declared a dwarf?
  2. Would they believe it?
  3. Would they care?
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Mathilde was not declared to be a dwarf. She was declared to have the soul of a dwarf. Nobody thought that she was a dwarf. Additionally, the announcement isn't widely known of in the Empire. Mostly it just seems to be theologians and a handful of others. And most of the people who noticed the announcement just forgot about it. It really meant nothing.

The odds of an elf learning about the announcement is not zero, but they are not very high. And it is practically guaranteed that any elf who could learn about the announcement would learn about by interacting with the movers and shakers of the Empire. That would mean that they themselves would have political experience. They would just write it off as the dwarfs trying to assuage their pride after being out done by a human.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Boney write a post about this before, different than the ones I've linked and quoted. I think it mentioned elves just writing it off as dwarf foolishness, but I can't find it, so I might be remembering a post someone else made.

Boney said:
Mathilde is not 'legally a Dwarf'. She is a human with a weird theological question mark that almost nobody really understands and fewer people actually care about - to Dwarves considering whether she is an insider or an outsider, her deeds heavily outweigh that business.
....
Giggling and saying 'yes' when a bunch of stuffy speciest Dwarves ask you if you nabbed a Dwarf soul, however, absolutely is, especially if they then go on to announce to the world that they're a bunch of twits who gave the God of Dunking On Twits a perfect set-up. The resounding facepalm from the theological world would have been followed up by the Grand Theogonist having someone write them a very gentle letter. Its intended purpose, that nobody has to think too hard about why a human has accomplished what Dwarves completely failed to even try, is dead in the water, and now it's chuckled at by some and firmly ignored by others.
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I have a dumb question, and I expect a dumb answer: if young Mathilde is Akko, and Older Mathilde is Yor, who is Eike?

Edit: oh no wait, I figured it out. It's obviously Fern from Frieren.
 
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