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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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pucflek said:
If Total War is to be believed, they appear to look down on the Old Ones, or at least hold them in certain amount of contempt. But thats just the Dragons. I don´t think they necessarily hold it against their creations, feels like to me, because why would they create a human polity if that were so.
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To be fair there are plenty of good reasons to look down on the Old Ones, they did make the Polar Gates which exploded into Chaos that is still trying to eat the world.
 
pucflek said:
If Total War is to be believed, they appear to look down on the Old Ones, or at least hold them in certain amount of contempt. But thats just the Dragons. I don´t think they necessarily hold it against their creations, feels like to me, because why would they create a human polity if that were so.
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There's that, and also the fact that we don't know if Boney is using TW to build his lore, or what parts of it if he does.
 
It is a known fact that looking down on an outside group is something only ever done after careful and rational comparisons. Nobody has ever looked down on someone while not actually being any better than them. If someone is acting like they're better, it always and only means they really are better. Also not at all in need of further examination is the inbuilt assumption that the strength and value of an entire society can be boiled down to a single axis that will allow you to make objectively correct judgements as to which is superior.
 
Boney said:
It is a known fact that looking down on an outside group is something only ever done after careful and rational comparisons. Nobody has ever looked down on someone while not actually being any better than them. If someone is acting like they're better, it always and only means they really are better. Also not at all in need of further examination is the inbuilt assumption that the strength and value of an entire society can be boiled down to a single axis that will allow you to make objectively correct judgements as to which is superior.
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Look, Dragons are very clearly rational beings that can assign proper value to things, especially the ones they happen to 'own'. This is objectively fundamental aspect of reality. Just ask any Dragon and try to disagree when they tell you so.
 
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That Imperial-Cathay non-agression pact will come in handy in five centuries when the Imperial Zoo dragon - Zhao Ming diplomatic talks devolve into open brawl about whose humans are better.
 
Boney said:
It is a known fact that looking down on an outside group is something only ever done after careful and rational comparisons. Nobody has ever looked down on someone while not actually being any better than them. If someone is acting like they're better, it always and only means they really are better. Also not at all in need of further examination is the inbuilt assumption that the strength and value of an entire society can be boiled down to a single axis that will allow you to make objectively correct judgements as to which is superior.
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Ah but have you considered that dragons are simply better? Not on a single axis but on every axis.
 
pucflek said:
If Total War is to be believed, they appear to look down on the Old Ones, or at least hold them in certain amount of contempt. But thats just the Dragons. I don´t think they necessarily hold it against their creations, feels like to me, because why would they create a human polity if that were so.
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Cathayan dragons look down on Ulthuan dragons for allowing the Elves to ride them. Presumably they also have a lower opinion of the Elves for riding them.
 
Boney said:
If there's one thing that your experiences with Dwarves and Elves have taught you, it's the power of accumulated experience, and how easy it is for those who lack it to underestimate it.
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Do we think she was being so extra here because she made the realization about Gormann on the way over and needed to reinflate her ego?
 
Obviously Mathilde is going to go to Lustria and manage to make a treaty with the Slaan, as shown by how she comes back with a Lizardmen ambassador and what they consider basic magical lore.
 
pucflek said:
The dragon-blooded prove that any objections to dragon riding are entirely hypocritical :V
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People say that, but it's not really the same thing.

Their objection to the Caledorians is any kind of appearance that dragons could be viewed as subservient, or even worse, as beasts of burden.

Obviously the Cathayan dragons top, so there's no equivalence there.
 
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K von Carstein said:
Do you have any sources for that?
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The initial Lorebeards podcast that interviewed Andy Hall. It's not in the Cathay army book proper, but the people who wrote the book say that the distaste that the dragons of Cathay have for the High Elves filters down among the people of Cathay.

DragonParadox said:
Cathay has dragons, but so does Ulthuan, they are at most a peer power and the isolationism would probably knock them down to near-peer in terms of real power projection. Also the majority of Cathayans are subsistence farmers who would be as terrified of wizards as the next peasant. Their nobility might look down on the Asur, being either dragons or dragon blooded but I am not sure that would translate into some kind of disdain for Wind use. As far as we know all the Dragon Children are wizards themselves.
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Boney has already mentioned that disdain for foreigners is not exactly a rational thing. But why would Cathayan peasants be terrified of wizards? The Celestial Dragon Emperor is a wizard. As is all of his children, and so are all of their children. Magic would be normal to them. The dragons of Cathay would not build a society with magic-terrified menials, given all the magic that they use.

This is not what I said. The Dragons and their children are an Us. The Asur, Indish, Hung, and Empire are all Thems. I did not bring up their opinion of Ulthuan as evidence of what they would think about foreign magic users. I brought it up because Ulthuan is much closer to being a peer of Cathay than the Empire and they still look down on it. The vast majority of Cathayans aren't going to think about the barbarians, and the vast majority of those that do aren't going to be envious of them. Why would they be? They're barbarians.
 
MrHobbit said:
The initial Lorebeards podcast that interviewed Andy Hall. It's not in the Cathay army book proper, but the people who wrote the book say that the distaste that the dragons of Cathay have for the High Elves filters down among the people of Cathay.


Boney has already mentioned that disdain for foreigners is not exactly a rational thing. But why would Cathayan peasants be terrified of wizards? The Celestial Dragon Emperor is a wizard. As is all of his children, and so are all of their children. Magic would be normal to them. The dragons of Cathay would not build a society with magic-terrified menials, given all the magic that they use.

This is not what I said. The Dragons and their children are an Us. The Asur, Indish, Hung, and Empire are all Thems. I did not bring up their opinion of Ulthuan as evidence of what they would think about foreign magic users. I brought it up because Ulthuan is much closer to being a peer of Cathay than the Empire and they still look down on it. The vast majority of Cathayans aren't going to think about the barbarians, and the vast majority of those that do aren't going to be envious of them. Why would they be? They're barbarians.
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Because no Cathayan peasant has ever met the Celestial Dragon Emperor, they are far more likely to have met some poor bugger who was born with mage talent and went bad/turned to chaos or worse. We know that the magic of dragons and the magic of humans is the same, but I would be surprised if Cathayan peasants make that comparison anymore than imperial peasants understand that divine magic and scary chaos magic come from the same plane of existence.
 
The only ulthuan dragon related thing we know of in relation to Cathay is that deathfang was involved in some tomfoolery there (or dragons of ulthuan were if not him in particular) and that it was not joint exercise with Asur.
 
DragonParadox said:
Because no Cathayan peasant has ever met the Celestial Dragon Emperor, they are far more likely to have met some poor bugger who was born with mage talent and went bad/turned to chaos or worse. We know that the magic of dragons and the magic of humans is the same, but I would be surprised if Cathayan peasants make that comparison anymore than imperial peasants understand that divine magic and scary chaos magic come from the same plane of existence.
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Obviously none of them have met the Dragon Emperor, but their local ruler has good odds on being a Shugengan, who also use magic.
 
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