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Later on Mathilde implied that before the duel, nobody had seen him turn into a Cathayan dragon.
Not necessarily. The "hitherto unknown" bit refers to the specific type of dragon, not the transformation. The type of dragon was "hitherto unknown" because before Dragomas demonstrated his transformation no one knew that type existed, but says nothing about when Dragomas first showed off that ability.
 
Dragomas is the guy who walked into the "here be dragons" territory as a fresh journeyman, and did not merely survive, but thrive.
I am perfectly fine accepting that he came back knowing battle magic tier spells not available in standard college spellbook.
Some people are just built different.
 
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It's possible that he only mastered it after coming back, but it's extremely doubtful that he didn't learn how to turn into an Cathayan dragon in Cathay.
What we know about Cathay heavily implies they would not even think about teaching a foreign human how to transform into a dragon. They do not even seem to do it with the Shugengan. They also seem like they could be very offended by a human pretending to be a Cathayan dragon. Less so the western dragons, but the Cathayan dragons definitely.

Not necessarily. The "hitherto unknown" bit refers to the specific type of dragon, not the transformation. The type of dragon was "hitherto unknown" because before Dragomas demonstrated his transformation no one knew that type existed, but says nothing about when Dragomas first showed off that ability.
Yes, I know it refers to the type of dragon. My reading of the passage is that the type of dragon was not known until the aforementioned leadership duel with Alric. Hence Dragomas could not have shown off that ability until he used it in the Supreme Patriarch duel. In my eyes the phrasing of the sentence ties "hitherto" to the "one-on-one duel."

When leadership is decided by a one-on-one duel, turning into a hitherto unknown and evidently very powerful species of Dragon is quite difficult to argue with
 
Ah yes, "Dragomas" came "back" from Cathay, able to transform "into" a dragon. We all believe that *wink*.

Nothing to see there.

Heheh, "Transformation of Kadon", sure, whatever you say.
 
A bit late but if we are learning new languages learning Thieves Cant is an option I think.

Considering Grey collage seem to have incorprated it to its enchantment paradigm learning it might be helpful.
 
* puts on shiny tinfoil hat* the Dragomas who went to Cathay wasn't the same one that came back. Dragomas reached Cathay and then was interrogated and replaced by a Dragon Prince who shapeshifted into him.

Then the Dragon Prince came back to the Empire and acted as Dragomas with the idea of ascending in the hierarchy of the Colleges and the Empire for when the moment comes betray the Empire for Cathay.
 
When Mathilde commissioned the Amber's monolith/battle altar, she got told this:

"When one of us transforms, we hold what we truly are inside of us, and so when the spell ends we revert. Someone else does not have the training to hold who they are within them, so the transformation sinks deeper into them until nothing remains untouched. So the menhir also imbues a second spell into them, which does the remembering of what they were."

Between this and how RPG materials suggest that the Ambers commune with animal spirits (metaphorical or otherwise), I'm inclined to think that the usual way of learning Transformation of Kadon is to either go up to the big monster in question to grow familiar enough with it and its spirit (probably accomplished through Binding Scrolls of Kadon), or to go on a vision quest to interact with that beast spirit. Probably dangerous either way!

This may explain Dragomas' mastery of the spell: he may have already been familiar with Cathayan dragons on a personal basis.

(Incidentally, I'm given to understand dragons are considered beasts for purposes of Ghur because even if they can talk and be smart and stuff, they act like beasts. They usually treat humans as prey.)
 
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The issue with these theories is that the Empire is a complete backwater compared to Cathay. Why would any dragon bother?
 
Cathay magical tradition prohibits human use of any wind other than Azyr (if I remember right). Learning that there's an empire of humans on the other side of the deadly death wastes ruled by the Chaos Dwarves that have no trouble using every wind (institutionally) would be a bit of a shock, at least to the human Cathay-ans. They probably have the same level of salt towards Imperial Wizards that we do towards High Magic users.
 
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The issue with these theories is that the Empire is a complete backwater compared to Cathay. Why would any dragon bother?

Less competition from your siblings? It might be comfier to be the only dragon in a relative backwater than having to claw and fight for status in theoretical luxury and civilization.
 
Cathay magical tradition prohibits human use of any wind other than Azyr (if I remember right). Learning that there's an empire of humans on the other side of the deadly death wastes ruled by the Chaos Dwarves that have no trouble using every wind (institutionally) would be a bit of a shock, at least to the human Cathay-ans. They probably have the same level of salt towards Imperial Wizards that we do towards High Magic users.
I think Boney had already written some stuff on Cathay before TW3 came out and said the thing with Azyr. It's possible that for quest purposes they do in fact have institutions for all the Winds.
 
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Cathay magical tradition prohibits human use of any wind other than Azyr (if I remember right). Learning that there's an empire of humans on the other side of the deadly death wastes ruled by the Chaos Dwarves that have no trouble using every wind (institutionally) would be a bit of a shock, at least to the human Cathay-ans. They probably have the same level of salt towards Imperial Wizards that we do towards High Magic users.
Aqshy and Chamon are practically allowed too. Those are the winds that Zhao Ming's alchemists use and his status as favorite son of his mother allows them to flourish across the Celestial Empire.

I doubt Cathayans would be envious of the Empire. They've monofocused on Azyr for the past several millennia. The other winds would surely be seen as less prestigious because they're not the favorite of the Dragon Emperor.

Is there a reason for that we know of?
I believe GW has said that the dragons don't think it is safe for humans to use the other winds. Alchemists get by because of sibling favoritism.

Less competition from your siblings? It might be comfier to be the only dragon in a relative backwater than having to claw and fight for status in theoretical luxury and civilization.
That is essentially agreeing to lose to your siblings. They've been set in their positions for over four thousand years. It's fun to joke about it, but of the siblings only Yin-Yin cares about outsiders enough to venture beyond the borders. The wind preference would match. But she is also very haughty and very unlikely to give up the fight to be Dad's favorite child. None of them would, but Yin-Yin is one of the least likely to.
 
That is essentially agreeing to lose to your siblings. They've been set in their positions for over four thousand years. It's fun to joke about it, but of the siblings only Yin-Yin cares about outsiders enough to venture beyond the borders. The wind preference would match. But she is also very haughty and very unlikely to give up the fight to be Dad's favorite child. None of them would, but Yin-Yin is one of the least likely to.
Though there is, of course, 2 dragons that are completely undefined by canon.
 
Is there a reason for that we know of?
Out of the dim mists of my empty mind, I think humans were said to be believed not to have suitable temperaments for any of the others (in the sense that the results were perceived as not good).

Which, if you're seeing a Ghyran user mutate into the jolly green giant for the first time, is fair.
I doubt Cathayans would be envious of the Empire. They've monofocused on Azyr for the past several millennia. The other winds would surely be seen as less prestigious because they're not the favorite of the Dragon Emperor.
Dhar is so anti-prestigious that you'll be killed on sight for it everywhere worth living, and it still attracts envious eyes. Power is power, and getting locked in to doing the same thing as everyone else is a lot less attractive when you know you could have specialized in any of the winds that have healing spells.
 
The Cathayans in-quest at least have some sort of odd relationship with Dhar, given that the Cathayan Jet that Mathilde found way back when was created to allow its user to cast Dark Magic (and High Magic) magic freely while disrupting other winds and god-magic.
 
The Cathayans in-quest at least have some sort of odd relationship with Dhar, given that the Cathayan Jet that Mathilde found way back when was created to allow its user to cast Dark Magic (and High Magic) magic freely while disrupting other winds and god-magic.
That was before Total Warhammer Cathay was revealed, so it is possible that Johann was just mistaken about what Yin and Yang meant.

(Old lore circa 6th edition went with the version in-quest, Jet items with the same effect being in the Ogre Kingdoms book, but that has obviously been retconned)
 
Man the more I read about Cathay the more interested I am in Mathilde going there for a while. I wish I'd be able to think of a good hook or reason to do so.:cry:
 
While I think society is mono focused on a particular wind. It's also really important to remember that how winds are seen is important for the way they work.

If you ask a Caythan on how to magically make the fields grow faster. That would be a thing the Dragon Emperor does by blessing the kingdom. The idea of jade as helping crops never really implanted into the minds of everyone. Jade wizards over there could be significantly more like alchemists. Carefully tended to greenhouses with a bigger focus on posions and other fun stuff.

This is me just guessing for the most part. But even if some of the winds are banned. I for sure think that every dragon is hiding their favored magic users, it's just Zhao Ming isn't subtle about it. And I wouldn't be shocked at all if Yuan Bo had a couple of grey wizards in their pocket.
 
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