Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I think the answer is, 'Dragon-Blooded Shugengan don't have the same restriction'.
(They couldn't, given that they're supposed to be casting either Yin or Yang)
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
(They couldn't, given that they're supposed to be casting either Yin or Yang)
If the other provinces paid much attention to Stirland's eternal struggle with Sylvania they might feel guilty about their lack of contribution to it. One of humanity's most consistent and condemnable qualities is a tendency to think less of those we have wronged.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Hey that's not fair.
Its a Dwarf quality too!
The... ninth child and the ulgu child, right?
Yes, but you compared it to High Magic. The Colleges are openly envious of the Asur for their mastery of it. Volans was quite envious of it. They are not openly envious of dhar. The majority of the Colleges are not envious of the capabilities of dhar, they quite like the wind their soul has become. Would there be some wizards? Sure. A few. Cathay has a bigger population than the entire Old World combined (sans the skaven). Of course there'd be wizards who would prefer to use other winds.
On another note, I wouldn't necessarily say that Cathay lacks healing magic. The Great Bastion Hospice building mentions that Yin monks use 'magicks' to heal inured soldiers. That implies there is at least a non-insignificant amount of people who can use healing magic. I don't know where that magic comes from, but we might as well be reading tea leaves without even an army book.
Andy Hall mentioned that the Shugengan can use High Magic in general. He seemed to be reading from the army book while saying it. Though it seems to be saying that there are less Shugengan who can wield all eight winds together rather than specializing in Yin or Yang.
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
I have a suspicion that trying to create another expedition into the Chaos Wastes just to ask some all-but-damned dwarves about their culture would push Mathilde's deception skills to their utter limit. And her morality, given how many people died on the last expedition.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The 9 children are:
Miao Ying, the Storm Dragon, who used the Lore of Life (Water)
Zhao Ming, the Iron Dragon, who uses the Lore of Metal (Metal)
Yuan Bo, the Jade Dragon, who actually uses both Light and Heavens but we're assigning him Lore of Heavens (Stone)
Li Dao, the Fire Dragon, who we're assuming uses Lore of Fire (Fire) because I mean, come on?
Yin-Yin, the Sea Dragon, who if we're going by the 4 quadrant dragons being based off the 4 Heavenly Beasts uses Lore of Beasts (Wood)
Shen Zoo, the Light Dragon, who we're assuming uses Lore of Light (Light) because, again, come on?
Shiyama, the Spirit Dragon, who is dead and so gets Lore of Death (Spirit)
And then there are two more dragons who we haven't even gotten so much as a hint about.
(What's it say that I can do all that purely off memory?)
I meant more ride in Shadowsteed in solitary. Or join a Kurgan Tribe in one of their pilgrimages there. Rather than mount another expedition.
Though, iirc, the Expedition was seen as an absolute win in terms of lives lost because of how few people died despite going to the Chaos Wastes.
infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
Not even Asarnil and Deathfang would go into the Chaos Wastes by themselves. It's absolutely not something Mathilde could or would attempt solo, especially for something as unimportant as satisfying her curiosity.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I don't think it's very productive to 'well actually' a hypothetical envy ratio. "Those guys are allowed to use all the cool winds forbidden to us mere humans" is a source of some envy, the same way "Those guys are allowed to use multiple winds which is forbidden to us mere humans" is.
We could be honest and moral about it. We'd just have to be asking the right people.
There are plenty of souls in the Empire who'd be willing to take a trip up there for its own sake. If we picked the right ones, we'd even activate a cool and thematic bonus to our spell casting attempts.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Several dozen turns later, Everchosen Mathilde marches her Warhost upon Karak Dum, breaking their twisted god and shattering their walls. She cuts a swath through the valiant, doomed defenders, tearing away a Runemaster's axe before he can die honourably, pulling him up with one hand imbued with unearthly power to look him in the eye and say:
"Hey, why do you call yourself a Runemaster anyway?"
"Hey, why do you call yourself a Runemaster anyway?"
- Location
- on the way to the fire.
- Pronouns
- He
Why limit to spellcasting bonus?I don't think it's very productive to 'well actually' a hypothetical envy ratio. "Those guys are allowed to use all the cool winds forbidden to us mere humans" is a source of some envy, the same way "Those guys are allowed to use multiple winds which is forbidden to us mere humans" is.
We could be honest and moral about it. We'd just have to be asking the right people.
There are plenty of souls in the Empire who'd be willing to take a trip up there for its own sake. If we picked the right ones, we'd even activate a cool and thematic bonus to our spell casting attempts.
Mathilde march north at the head of a perfectly common human army. That is in truth one third Tzeentchian cultists, one third undead And one third Skaven, each one believing they managed to infiltrate the famous Lady Magister's Weber important quest and unaware of the other third.
And Mathilde who laid out clues on purpose and choose the most suspicious Applicants only , happy to have found a solution for gathering an expendable volunteer force.
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Wow, it is good then that I didn't say 'well actually', I pointed out your own words. I do not, in fact, possess the ability to read minds read the future. So when you say that Cathayans might be jealous of the Empire for similar reasons that Imperial wizards might be jealous of High Magic, I replied to that point! Why the hell do you think I should have responded to Imperial jealousy of dhar when you made no mention of it? I am incredibly annoyed by your implication that I should have talked about dhar when you mentioned HIGH MAGIC!
And really, no, institutionally human Cathayans are not going to be jealous of Imperial wizards. As I said, there would be exceptions. But the vast majority would write it off as barbarian nonsense. You know, like how real China did. I also disagree with the notion that Imperials are jealous of dhar users. Are there exceptions? Yes. Obviously, Black Magisters have to come from somewhere. But the vast majority of Imperial wizards prefer to stay sane. Talking about the people who would spare the thoughts to be jealous as if they are even significant minorities of their organizations is nonsense. The way that Imperial wizards wistfully look at qhyash is absolutely not the same thing of how they think about dhar. Why do you even think that is comparable?
Do not snip out lines like this, respond to the whole point or don't post at all.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We know the generals of why the Karag Dum Runesmiths called themselves Runemasters: because they thought they were hot shit.
That's essentially claiming they reached heights that the god that taught them that art didn't. Being able to bind Cor-Dum suggests that that wasn't all talk. They... knew stuff. Though I don't imagine they do anymore, given their current state. Perhaps they decided to burn all their knowledge of Rune stuff after turning themselves into a thorn against Chaos.
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infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
Point of order, that's just Thorek's (and maybe the Runesmith community's in general) opinion. We didn't actually ask Borek about it.
Blackangel
Preacher of the dice gods
I've finally caught up! Love the quest, I love the smugness.
- Location
- Finland
If they had the knowledge equal, let alone superrior, to the ancestor god of runework, i don't think they would need to bind Cor-Dum.
They obviously did have runic secrets everyone else had forgotten, but trying to elevate themselves above Thugni's direct students was, arrogant, at minimum.
Assuming that is what they intended, which they may not have, we only have second hand accounts about their intentions.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
What I'm trying to tell you is that I'm not responding to your posts with a strict literal correctness that would necessitate adhering to this sort of standard.
I sympathize with feeling strong emotions about what other people post. I've been there. I don't feel like you're a bad person for caring deeply.
I can be wrong. I have definitely been wrong even in this thread. But first and foremost I'm 'here' to have a good time.
I'll package up my general thoughts on the whole tangent here, for easy consumption:
People often want what they cannot have. Based on my experience reading the wishes of people in this thread, a desire to cast from other lores often comes up. High magic, other colors, and Dhar all produce equal yearning as observed from posts where people talked about that sort of thing. It seemed to me that a civilization with a large single wind institution might feel similarly to the thread. High magic and Dhar both seemed like good descriptions of a similar feeling in Imperial institutions, because they both have a lot of people burning themselves up to try and achieve them in the lore. Yes, even though Dhar is bad. Many people, only some of them in the lore, do not like or want to believe that Dhar is bad. So I drew a line using the thread's emotional angle to point at what Cathay's feelings might be, and then drew a flat line over to the Empire to try to describe the normal feeling for people in the thread who didn't have the feeling on their mind. It's an emotional triangulation.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Fairly sure that humans also count for Ghur is they are living a sufficiently hunter gatherer lifestyle.
If we pulled that off we would become the favorite of Tzeentchian even if we refuse every offer. Mathilde would find gifts of tainted objects everywhere.
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- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Glad to have you here! It'll be a bit before the next turn-plan vote. I dunno how much attention you paid to the thread comments outside of the quest text itself, so a rundown of what's coming up:
- There'll be at least one more social-turn update next, featuring:
- A new magic initiate appearing in Karag Nar. It's possible players will give input on which College to send them to, or they might decide one of the priesthoods is a better fit, or things might get really exciting and the family refuse to send their child away at all and Mathilde's stuck wrestling with jurisdictional problems as Karag Nar isn't actually part of the Empire.
- The "Elf Olympics" determining the next Eonir Champion are due. Kadoh, the current champion, is likely to win again because elves don't really decay physically so if you've got a winning streak going it can go for a long time. If he does lose, there's political ramifications as that changes the balance of power in Tor Lithanel that we're relying on to keep the Waystone Project going.
- Someone approaching Mathilde for something or other. A mystery box, that may or may not come with a player vote.
- After that update, or the one after if for some reason it stretches long, there'll be a purchase-turn vote:
- It will probably see no currencies spent as everything's running a little low at the moment. But it's possible people decide to spend some money on Ulthuan books, or some College Favour on translating Eonir medical texts for the Shallyans, or Vitae on something from the Runesmiths. If you come up with something specific you'd like to see, make your case before the vote!
- Along with that is the next batch of books to pick up for the Library. Hard to say exactly what we'll pick as we're still waiting to see the whole corpus we're getting from our recent trade of Ithilmar for a copy of the Library of Mournings. If some new exciting category we have no equivalent texts for in Imperial/Dwarf appears that we'd never considered before, it might prompt us to fill out the remainder. Otherwise, topics floated around have been:
- A College purchase to either:
- Round out our remaining Winds ([ ] LIBRARY: Chamon, Shyish, Hysh, Ghur)
- Get some Imperial knowledge on Nehekhara as it seems to be cropping up here and there, with one spare slot for something else, so something like ([ ] LIBRARY: Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations, Liminal Pathways)
- Or a Barak Varr purchase similarly focusing on:
- What the Dwarves know about Nehekhara ([ ] LIBRARY: Geography of Nehekhara, The Nehekharan Pantheon, Nehekharan War-Statuary)
- Or a Backfill operation to populate one of the emptier sections of our library, like war and combat or applied sciences
- A College purchase to either:
- And that begins the next turn cycle, where people start making plan votes for what Mathilde should do next.
- The big debate currently going on in the thread (off and on, because nobody wants to talk about just one thing for months) is whether or not to have Mathilde finally take up her standing invitation to visit Nagarythe in Ulthuan next turn to kill some Dark Elves (aka, the "Elfcation"). With sub-discussions on:
- how exactly to spread out the necessary three actions - whether to get it all done at once, or put some "on credit" for the following turn in order to get more last-minute prep actions done.
- Whether or not to bring Eike with us to Lothern—the Port City of Ulthuan—and leave her to her own devices for three months. This one seems very split, mostly because while on the face of it it's an irreplaceable opportunity for her, there hasn't been an overwhelmingly popular proposal for what she's actually going to do while she's there.
- Which face of Ranald's Coin to invoke. Until recently, consensus was pretty strong for the Protector, getting Mathilde maximum credit for her actions on the turn. With Ulthuan now having joined the Project, there's been mumbling about instead putting it on one of the other sides (Gambler as an Oh-Shit button, or Night Prowler in case of infiltration (though there aren't many permanent settlements in Nagarythe), or Deceiver in case of interaction with Dark Elves, or even the Father in case of a chance run-in revealing the missing Daughter. Protector still has a strong following, though.
- Those who don't want to go to Nagarythe next turn then have further splits in focus:
- A turn spent dedicated to exploring the "Father" face of Ranald's Coin by interacting with devotees of both the known Daughter (Haletha, by taking the Forest of Shadows exploration action) and one or more candidates for the unknown daughter (most popular being The Lady of Bretonnia, by inviting the Damsels to the Waystone Project)
- Accelerating rollout of Waystones now that we have a working prototype. We've got a lot of exploration actions to take, and several places in desperate need of the version we already have. Some also want to go straight back to the drawing board and knock out a second prototype for a different use case (a non-riverine copy of the one we have, or a "cheap and easy" low-magic version for maximum coverage)
- Self-improvement, taking actions to give Mathilde more skills in Intrigue, Diplomacy or Combat in prep for taking the Elfcation in a turn or two.
- I don't think anyone's really made a case for a research-focused turn. Mathilde's got a lot of stuff left to look at in her backlog, and more can always be done with WEBMAT, but slow-and-steady seems to be the going approach.
- Likewise, nobody's agitating to spend multiple actions training Eike directly. It's an option, but thread consensus is that she seems to be doing fine. If you disagree, feel free to come up with a plan and push for it.
- And then there's all the one-off filler actions that will populate the remaining action slots of a given turn (next turn we have 6AP instead of 5 without invoking overwork penalties, as Mathilde is a workaholic). Stuff like spell research or codification, or Windherding, or...well, look at the list of available actions last turn. There's a lot.
- The big debate currently going on in the thread (off and on, because nobody wants to talk about just one thing for months) is whether or not to have Mathilde finally take up her standing invitation to visit Nagarythe in Ulthuan next turn to kill some Dark Elves (aka, the "Elfcation"). With sub-discussions on:
And you're missing the point of what I say when you do that. It probably is not a good idea to go about accepting that you not are posting correct things. I already said that it was a bad comparison. Trying to project the Colleges and the thread on Cathay is just completely wrong-headed.
This emotional triangulation misunderstands what we know about Cathay. Cathay is arrogant. They look down upon anyone who isn't Cathayan as a barbarian. The designated xenophile of the faction is Yin-Yin, who wants to bring Cathay's harmonious ways to the world, by force. This does not indicate much appreciation for foreign culture or values.
With the thread and the Empire, Ulthuan is the superior. Ulthuan is the world power and capable of the greatest achievements with magic. The Empire is the barbarian envying the wonders of their elders. When we're talking about a random astromancer, it's the opposite. Cathay is the superior civilization. They had the guidance of the Celestial Dragon before the Polar Gates fell. Do you remember Boney's recent post about Us vs Them? For the majority of Cathayans, the idea that the so-called Empire has wizards that specialize in each of the winds means nothing. Sure they do, they're barbarians. What connection do they have to us? They're also used to it, because they border Ind. And while Cathay seems to have a high opinion of the tigermen, that doesn't translate to viewing Indic magic-users positively either. They also have a lot of experience with wind-using magic users to their north, who would decidedly sour such opinions.
Would there be Cathayan wizards envious of foreign powers that use a much greater variety of wizards? Sure. But that percentage is already rather small because the majority don't care about foreign powers. Of those that do, you would need sift through them to find any that are willing to consider treating them with respect. The Colleges of Magic only exist because Teclis, a foreigner, stepped in and convinced Magnus to legalize them. Cathayans have no such reason to compare themselves to foreigners. They look down on Ulthuan. Edit: clarified some stuff
We actually have a good idea of what it looks like for diplomatic Cathayans to try to be considerate of people from the Old World:
Total War quoting an adjunct of Zhao Ming said:
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infinityDivided
Prince Of Doom
- Location
- USA
You missed that we're finishing up the AV book, and so are probably going to present it and the Morbs during that turn (or the next social turn, either or).
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Do you have any sources for that?
Cathay has dragons, but so does Ulthuan, they are at most a peer power and the isolationism would probably knock them down to near-peer in terms of real power projection. Also the majority of Cathayans are subsistence farmers who would be as terrified of wizards as the next peasant. Their nobility might look down on the Asur, being either dragons or dragon blooded but I am not sure that would translate into some kind of disdain for Wind use. As far as we know all the Dragon Children are wizards themselves.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
If Total War is to be believed, they appear to look down on the Old Ones, or at least hold them in certain amount of contempt. But thats just the Dragons. I don´t think they necessarily hold it against their creations, feels like to me, because why would they create a human polity if that were so.