Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[MrHobbit]

Do we know if Boney uses that lore in his quest?

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It is literally some of the only lore on Games Workshop's Cathay that we have. Besides, it's not as if it isn't intuitive. Why wouldn't their attitudes trickle down?

Because no Cathayan peasant has ever met the Celestial Dragon Emperor, they are far more likely to have met some poor bugger who was born with mage talent and went bad/turned to chaos or worse. We know that the magic of dragons and the magic of humans is the same, but I would be surprised if Cathayan peasants make that comparison anymore than imperial peasants understand that divine magic and scary chaos magic come from the same plane of existence.

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What. Cathay isn't the Empire. Stop trying to apply the conditions of the Empire to Cathay! What the fuck.

No, the interaction that Cathayan peasants would have with magic-users would be them being retrieved by Astromancer cabals to be trained as wizards. Are the humans of Karak Eight Peaks magophobic? No. Why would the fuck would Cathayans be?!?!!

 

[DragonParadox]

Obviously none of them have met the Dragon Emperor, but their local ruler has good odds on being a Shugengan, who also use magic.

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Cathay is an empire of hundreds of millions, most of them are unlikely to have seen their local ruler either. It is hard to tell from how TW abstracts things, but I think the Shugengan are the high nobility, the kind of people a peasant in the back and beyond would be lucky to ever see in their lives.

 

[Boney]

Fun fact: Rome and China were aware of each other and had official, if occasional, diplomatic relations. Their ideas of each other were very often incredibly wrong but adorably romanticized, such as China being super impressed by how Rome never had power struggles. People are very quick to get super pissed off with those fuckers (Ulthuan) when they're messing with our shit (policing all transit into and out of the Jade Sea), but if there's two thousand miles of brutal terrain between you and them and the only contact you really have is that occasionally a caravan or shipload of nifty and exotic trade goods shows up, then there's no harm in being charmed by their quaint oriental/occidental ways.

 

[DragonParadox]

What. Cathay isn't the Empire. Stop trying to apply the conditions of the Empire to Cathay! What the fuck.

No, the interaction that Cathayan peasants would have with magic-users would be them being retrieved by Astromancer cabals to be trained as wizards. Are the humans of Karak Eight Peaks magophobic? No. Why would the fuck would Cathayans be?!?!!

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I find it very hard not to think of Cathay as China in a magical hat given that it's er... called Cathay, in addition to everything else but OK sure it's not an empire. Humans are still going to fear magic since those astromancers are not going to be perfect at catching talents, no more than the damsels of Bretonia are. The reason K8P isn't magi-phobic is a combination of really large scale works of positive magic and a small, concentrated population. We actually can get all the potential mages before they go insane/chaotic.

 

[Andres]

I find it very hard not to think of Cathay as China in a magical hat given that it's er... called Cathay, in addition to everything else but OK sure it's not an empire.

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MrHobbit very clearly said 'the Empire' not 'an empire'. Neither Cathay nor China are the Empire of Man.

 

[Mopman43]

find it very hard not to think of Cathay as China in a magical hat given that it's er... called Cathay, in addition to everything else but OK sure it's not an empire.

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Er, he said that Cathay is not The Empire, as in, Sigmar's. Not about if it's an empire.

Kislev doesn't have the Empire's cultural hangups about magic, why should Cathay?

 

[DragonParadox]

MrHobbit very clearly said 'the Empire' not 'an empire'. Neither Cathay nor China are the Empire of Man.

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Er, he said that Cathay is not The Empire, as in, Sigmar's. Not about if it's an empire.

Kiskev doesn't have the Empire's cultural hangups about magic, why should Cathay?

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Ah, OK, makes sense, sorry about that.

 

[MrHobbit]

I find it very hard not to think of Cathay as China in a magical hat given that it's er... called Cathay, in addition to everything else but OK sure it's not an empire. Humans are still going to fear magic since those astromancers are not going to be perfect at catching talents, no more than the damsels of Bretonia are. The reason K8P isn't magi-phobic is a combination of really large scale works of positive magic and a small, concentrated population. We actually can get all the potential mages before they go insane/chaotic.

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I genuinely do not understand what you are thinking. What are you trying to say.

You do not need perfection for the population to not fear magic. Cathayan dragons have been shaping their humans for the past seven thousand years. The vast majority of magic users do not turn to chaos or become insane, that is a Sigmarite lie fueled by bigotry. Especially in an environment that was built by magic-users! Magophobia isn't a genetic condition. Kislevites don't fear magic. The Indish also don't appear to fear magic either. Why would Cathayans?

 

[Andres]

Wizards aren't psykers.

 

[DragonParadox]

I genuinely do not understand what you are thinking. What are you trying to say.

You do not need perfection for the population to not fear magic. Cathayan dragons have been shaping their humans for the past seven thousand years. The vast majority of magic users do not turn to chaos or become insane. Especially in an environment that was built by magic-users! Magophobia isn't a genetic condition. Kislevites don't fear magic. The Indish also don't appear to fear magic either. Why would Cathayans?

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Kislevites certainly do fear magic in all but its culturally acceptable forms, easiest way to tell if someone is a ordinary citizen of Kislev is to look at it the person casting is a woman or not, hence Mathilde getting more respectful looks to start with and Johann more guarded

We do not know anything about Ind other than how they think about the Winds.

 

[Mopman43]

Kislevites certainly do fear magic in all but its culturally acceptable forms, easiest way to tell if someone is a ordinary citizen of Kislev is to look at it the person casting is a woman or not, hence Mathilde getting more respectful looks to start with and Johann more guarded

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And Cathay has its own culturally respected forms of magic.

 

[DragonParadox]

And Cathay has its own culturally respected forms of magic.

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Never said it didn't, so does the Empire, so did the Empire before Magnus in the form of divine magic, that does not mean that magic in general, random foreigners in funny robes which is where all this started, is not feared.

 

[adaer]

Boney has already mentioned that disdain for foreigners is not exactly a rational thing. But why would Cathayan peasants be terrified of wizards? The Celestial Dragon Emperor is a wizard. As is all of his children, and so are all of their children. Magic would be normal to them. The dragons of Cathay would not build a society with magic-terrified menials, given all the magic that they use.

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I'd still be pretty afraid of some dude with a gun despite the fact that my country employs a frankly absurd amount of them both in the army and as law enforcement. I don't think the fact that these extremely dangerous people can't be disarmed and sometimes explode into demons changes that equation much.

 

[Valmond]

Never said it didn't, so does the Empire, so did the Empire before Magnus in the form of divine magic, that does not mean that magic in general, random foreigners in funny robes which is where all this started, is not feared.

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I think the important thing there is not magic, but random foreigner.
People fear magic, they also fear swords, when wielded by people not culturally approved to wield them.

 

[MrHobbit]

Kislevites certainly do fear magic in all but its culturally acceptable forms, easiest way to tell if someone is a ordinary citizen of Kislev is to look at it the person casting is a woman or not, hence Mathilde getting more respectful looks to start with and Johann more guarded

We do not know anything about Ind other than how they think about the Winds.

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Could you please stop for a second and think about what you post? In Cathay there is a culturally accepted form of magic: astromancy. Alchemy is more controversial, but it's unofficially legal enough and has the backing of a dragon. Wizards are not psykers. They are not instantly damned to insanity and chaos by birth. That is what Sigmarites believe. SIGMARITES ARE WRONG!!!

And Cathay has large-scale works of positive magic. There's the Wuxing compass! The astromancers run their equivalent of the waystone network. There's also the Great Bastion.

You know what. You have not presented any evidence. You have only said that Cathay must be the same thing as the Empire, despite the fact that its circumstances are completely different.

Cite something saying Cathayans are magophobic.

We have an idea of what Ind thinks about magic. They believe that Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, Ghyran, and Chamon are positive and should be encouraged. They think the other three winds are undesirable and thus should be battle wizards.

I'm still pretty afraid of some dude with a gun despite the fact that my country employs a frankly absurd amount of them both in the army and as law enforcement. I don't think the fact that these extremely dangerous people can't be disarmed and sometimes explode into demons changes that equation much.

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Okay.

Find proof that Cathayans are magophobic. Mages are absolutely not the same thing as a person with the gun and practically any mage in the Empire would be pissed at this comparison. Battle wizards are. But the majority of magic users are not battle wizards.

 

[DragonParadox]

I think the important thing there is not magic, but random foreigner.
People fear magic, they also fear swords, when wielded by people not culturally approved to wield them.

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Magic makes the random foreigner a lot more scary since it is powerful and mysterious to the ordinary person. Hence I think it is fair to say they outside of strictly enforced contexts magic would be scary in Cathay. Thought exercise, take the caster out of it entirely, person in Cathay encounters a glowing magic box with strange runes on it. Are they

A) Be very happy because it is a gift from the Dragons?
or
B) Stay the hell away from it and send for some kind of expert?

I think that as a general rule B makes more sense if all you know is that it is magic and not from what.

 

[Alratan]

Kislevites certainly do fear magic in all but its culturally acceptable forms, easiest way to tell if someone is a ordinary citizen of Kislev is to look at it the person casting is a woman or not, hence Mathilde getting more respectful looks to start with and Johann more guarded

We do not know anything about Ind other than how they think about the Winds.

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If Realm of the Ice Queen can be believed, the Kislevite seem to hate and fear arcane magic just as much as the pre-Magnus Empire did, but while the Empire only had one category of legitimate magic, divine magic, the Kislevites had two, witchcraft as well as the divine magic of cults.

Notably, both hated anyone who used Wind based magic, considering it inherently corrupting, which without specialist training that wasn't available, it is.

 

[Mopman43]

If Realm of the Ice Queen can be believed, the Kislevite seem to hate and fear arcane magic just as much as the pre-Magnus Empire did, but while the Empire only had one category of legitimate magic, divine magic, the Kislevites had two, witchcraft as well as the divine magic of cults.

Notably, both hated anyone who used Wind based magic, considering it inherently corrupting, which without specialist training that wasn't available, it is.

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I really doubt that the average Kislevite could tell you that there's anything fundamentally different from how Ice Magic works compared to the Colleges, except for the fact that Ice Magic is obviously better, being Kislevite.

They're not going to start talking about 'the corrupting influence of the Winds of Magic'.

 

[DragonParadox]

Could you please stop for a second and think about what you post? In Cathay there is a culturally accepted form of magic: astromancy. Alchemy is more controversial, but it's unofficially legal enough and has the backing of a dragon. Wizards are not psykers. They are not instantly damned to insanity and chaos by birth. That is what Sigmarites believe. SIGMARITES ARE WRONG!!!

And Cathay has large-scale works of positive magic. There's the Wuxing compass! The astromancers run their equivalent of the waystone network. There's also the Great Bastion.

You know what. You have not presented any evidence. You have only said that Cathay must be the same thing as the Empire, despite the fact that its circumstances are completely different.

Cite something saying Cathayans are magophobic.

We have an idea of what Ind thinks about magic. They believe that Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, Ghyran, and Chamon are positive and should be encouraged. They think the other three winds are undesirable and thus should be battle wizards.


Okay.

Find proof that Cathayans are magophobic. Mages are absolutely not the same thing as a person with the gun and practically any mage in the Empire would be pissed at this comparison. Battle wizards are. But the majority of magic users are not battle wizards.

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Please be a bit less aggressive about this

That said, the waystone network? Why would most of the population know about the Waystone Network/Celestial Compass? Even if they did they would probably think about them the way Bretonians think of Grail Chapels, the good holy places that have nothing to do with foreign or otherwise strange wizards. Also Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, Ghyran, and Chamon? What do those funny names mean to the average subsistence farmer or minor craftsman? There is a panel around here about experts overestimating what the general public knows about their fields.

 

[Alratan]

I really doubt that the average Kislevite could tell you that there's anything fundamentally different from how Ice Magic works compared to the Colleges, except for the fact that Ice Magic is obviously better, being Kislevite.

They're not going to start talking about 'the corrupting influence of the Winds of Magic'.

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They quite possibly would have beliefs about masculine coded magic that leaks out of the (Chaos) God's Eye in the far north being inherently corrupt, and the female coded witchcraft and gender indifferent divine magic that comes from a different source, not the evil north, being a totally different phenomena and so acceptable.

Just as people in the Empire consider divine magic fundamentally different to arcane magic and can justify why that's the case.

 

[Boney]

@MrHobbit
Recently you seem to be escalating in tone from 'a discussion to engage in' to 'a debate to be won' a bit too readily. I'd like you to give some thought to whether the topics at hand are ones that merit this level of intensity.

 

[Mopman43]

Just as people in the Empire consider divine magic fundamentally different to arcane magic and can justify why that's the case.

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I mean, they don't consider it magic.

I think there's a fundamental difference between 'the Priests can be used as the font for miracles from the gods' vs. 'Ice Magic isn't the same thing as that Imperinyi magic, 'cause of the Ice'.

I think at most they'd have some kind of understanding that the Ancient Widow purifies it, but they aren't going to know anything about the Winds.

 

[Derpmind]

Fun fact: Rome and China were aware of each other and had official, if occasional, diplomatic relations. Their ideas of each other were very often incredibly wrong but adorably romanticized, such as China being super impressed by how Rome never had power struggles. People are very quick to get super pissed off with those fuckers (Ulthuan) when they're messing with our shit (policing all transit into and out of the Jade Sea), but if there's two thousand miles of brutal terrain between you and them and the only contact you really have is that occasionally a caravan or shipload of nifty and exotic trade goods shows up, then there's no harm in being charmed by their quaint oriental/occidental ways.

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Maybe Dragomas is just a really enthusiastic tourist?

 

[Alratan]

I mean, they don't consider it magic.

I think there's a fundamental difference between 'the Priests can be used as the font for miracles from the gods' vs. 'Ice Magic isn't the same thing as that Imperinyi magic, 'cause of the Ice'.

I think at most they'd have some kind of understanding that the Ancient Widow purifies it, but they aren't going to know anything about the Winds.

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I mean, we're told:

Article:

Due to their proximity to the Shadowlands, Kislev's Witches have long learned to avoid the Chaos Winds, for they blow strongly in the north and almost always herald corruption and mutation. Thus, they mastered alternative methods of casting spells. This difference has helped build their comparatively good reputation, as they ae not so readily associated with the Ruinous Powers.

Source: Realm of the Ice Queen, page 108

If people didn't know they weren't using the Winds and what that meant, it couldn't help build their good reputation.

 

[MrHobbit]

Please be a bit less aggressive about this

That said, the waystone network? Why would most of the population know about the Waystone Network/Celestial Compas? Even if they did they would probably think about them the way Bretonians think of Grail Chapels, the good holy places that have nothing to do with foreign or otherwise strange wizards. Also Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, Ghyran, and Chamon? What do those funny names mean to the average subsistence farmer or minor craftsman? There is a panel around here about experts overestomating what the general public knows about their fields.

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Are you going to actually cite anything or are you going to continue projecting the Empire on Cathay for absolutely zero reason? The circumstances that shape how the Empire view magic are not replicated in the slightest in Cathay. They don't have Nagash! They didn't have a god unify them and decree that Thou Shalt Hate Magic. They had the opposite!

Why wouldn't they know about? They know about the Great Bastion. It would be wonderful propaganda to talk about all the effort that the dragons of Cathay put into making their daily lives safe. Sure, it'd be mythology for the majority of them, but the majority of people believed that mythology. The average subsistence farmer doesn't need to know the exact mechanics of how it works. They just need to know that the dragons, in their wisdom, harnessed the might of Cathay to build a system that harnesses the ambient magic and uses it to enhance their harvests, punish their enemies, protect the afterlife, ect.

Real life India was actually extremely educated before the Europeans came along and destroyed it. It varied over time, but it trended much higher than Europe, but that admittingly does say very much. There is a very good chance that Indic peasants have an idea of what magic is and how it fits into philosophy. Not the most particularly indepth or accurate idea, but it'd be there for a decent number.