Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

Ergosum said:
And look what happened to Hubert. A good example of how an affinity for the elemental part of a Wind doesn't mean Mandred is going to have affinity for being in the respective order, or even like it at all.

We know he likes knights and fighting and isn't particularly interested in Learning related stuff, which to me seems a better fit for the Bright Order's mindset and less so for the Golds' 'cold and analytic' one.

Hubert would have been perfectly happy if the Celestials weren't dicks about the whole thing, and indeed is very happy with his magic as such, just not with the Order. The Golds don't have a notable history of doing the same, even Johann who has a real issue has a pretty solid standing, and it's his former master who's making the case for the Golds. Besides which, the Golds wouldn't sideline an Elector Count's heir even if they were dicks just for practical reasons.

As for mindset, his reaction to the Ranald tales shows a pretty good connection to Chamon, with the wanting to sort them into 'true' and 'not true'. That's honestly as much of a mindset cue as anything he may have towards the Brights.

ichypa · May 4, 2024

Boney said:
There is a sort of ruler who goes to his grave happy knowing that his years are ones that future generations will fall sleep while covering in history class.

He must have been absolutely thrilled that, comparatively speaking, the bit in the book that goes "…and it was during his reign that Eastern Stirland was reclaimed from the clutches of the Vampires…" occurred with minimal fanfare and ended with the death of only one Elector Count.

MiracleGrow · May 4, 2024

Thinking it over, I'm definitely leaning towards Brights. It just seems to be cool as all hell and fitting.

Also important to keep in mind that he is very likely going to get a Pegasus.

Mopman43 · May 4, 2024

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Hubert would have been perfectly happy if the Celestials weren't dicks about the whole thing, and indeed is very happy with his magic as such, just not with the Order. The Golds don't have a notable history of doing the same, even Johann who has a real issue has a pretty solid standing, and it's his former master who's making the case for the Golds. Besides which, the Golds wouldn't sideline an Elector Count's heir even if they were dicks just for practical reasons.

As for mindset, his reaction to the Ranald tales shows a pretty good connection to Chamon, with the wanting to sort them into 'true' and 'not true'. That's honestly as much of a mindset cue as anything he may have towards the Brights.

Johann was pretty bitter about it for awhile- I believe Mathilde met with one gold wizard (the one in Middenheim? The one that showed off what they did with the Skaven material?) that basically talked about him as a cripple.

If he hadn't managed to acquire enough gold to try it and been willing to do some extremely risky Gilding (I imagine especially so for an Apprentice), he would have been stuck as a Perpetual.

Boney said:
"Yeah. I was lucky that my Master gave me the chance to prove myself instead of dropping me right into Perpetual. I decided if I was going to be stuck at one third of a Gold Wizard, I'd have to be three times as good to break even. Eventually I had begged, borrowed, and stole enough coin for my first Gilding. Got made Journeyman on the spot. Who needs alchemy?"

Bucolic · May 4, 2024

Eisenhelm said:
Was it a crime of it was condoned by the new tzar?.

Like with revolution, it's not a crime if you succeed.

Guile · May 4, 2024

The kid's almost definitely not going to be discriminated against like Johann was, no matter what his affinity; Mandred is the son of the Emperor. If anything, I'd be worried about them turning him into a Malfoy with the amount of under-the-table sucking up I'd expect.

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

Mopman43 said:
Johann was pretty bitter about it for awhile- I believe Mathilde met with one gold wizard (the one in Middenheim? The one that showed off what they did with the Skaven material?) that basically talked about him as a cripple.

If he hadn't managed to acquire enough gold to try it and been willing to do some extremely risky Gilding (I imagine especially so for an Apprentice), he would have been stuck as a Perpetual.

Yes, but that was because he actually had a complete incapacity in one area of Chamon. To our knowledge, that's not Mandred's situation at all...he has an affinity with Elemental Chamon, not an incapacity with other facets.

deathofrats0808 · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
No kid at 10 have an affinity. Not even Mandred! Hubert was more of an edge case and even then he could probably steered somewhere else and got Celestials both because he was a noble and because there was no other argument against it. He would have been far happier if he went to Brights for example

Edit: Found this; Mandred trying to memorize elemental table illustrated;

I mean, kids can absolutely have Wind affinities at that age. Hubert is unusual, but he explicitly got sent to the Celestials because of his powerful link to Azyr. Horstmann also had an affinity, he went to the Lights on his own, something that's common enough they have a name for it. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

Quote for Egrimm joining the Lights by choice:

Boney said:
No, I woke up one day with the realization that I needed to go to Altdorf. 'Seeing the Light', we call it.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Yes, but that was because he actually had a complete incapacity in one area of Chamon. To our knowledge, that's not Mandred's situation at all...he has an affinity with Elemental Chamon, not an incapacity with other facets.

Johann has that incapacity because his affinity for bit he can do is sky high. So they're not unrelated.

Lammen Gorthaur · May 4, 2024

Guile said:
The kid's almost definitely not going to be discriminated against like Johann was, no matter what his affinity; Mandred is the son of the Emperor. If anything, I'd be worried about them turning him into a Malfoy with the amount of under-the-table sucking up I'd expect.

I direct this sentiment to anyone worrying about any amount of bullying, discrimination, or otherwise maltreatment on account of his mentality towards his Wind.

Mandred's problem absolutely is not going to be lack of self-esteem.

chocolote12 · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
Edit: Found this; Gold Apprentice Mandred trying to memorize elemental table illustrated;

They don't make you do that until you become a Magister. It's actually a conspiracy, because the average level of physical knowledge in the Empire is around the level of 'the four elements are air, earth, water and fire' and the suggestion that atoms could exist gets roundly mocked by less educated alchemists.

FallenPears · May 4, 2024

I'm still a good few hundred messages behind so it might have been discussed already but before voting opens, what would pushing for an Indic direction of Aqshy actually mean in practical terms? I understand the Bright College has a few inspiration/leadership type spells, they just usually take second stage to to the much more focused on fireball type Aqshy, is this basically just going 'Ind Aqshy users seem to focus more on this brand of magic, as this would be useful for Mandred's future position try doing the same for him when appropriate' or is there something more concrete we're pushing here?

I'm still leaning Bright regardless, Gold was very close but then I realised one of the big reasons I was so torn was the possibility that Johann could end up being something of a fellow Gehenna apprentice, which isn't really something to base a childs future on lmao.

chocolote12 · May 4, 2024

FallenPears said:
I'm still leaning Bright regardless, Gold was very close but then I realised one of the big reasons I was so torn was the possibility that Johann could end up being something of a fellow Gehenna apprentice, which isn't really something to base a childs future on lmao.

(If what you mean is that Gehenna might not be the teacher: ) Gehenna is in the room and the one arguing that Mandred has the second highest affinity for Elemental Chamon that she's ever seen, below only the guy whose affinity for elemental Chamon is so high that he can't comprehend any other way of looking at it, and we know she trained that guy and he turned out awesome.

The Gold College sending Gehenna to the table shows that they know exactly the sort of education he's going to be the most appreciative of.

Tasoli · May 4, 2024

chocolote12 said:
(If what you mean is that Gehenna might not be the teacher: ) Gehenna is in the room and the one arguing that Mandred has the second highest affinity for Elemental Chamon that she's ever seen, below only the guy whose affinity for elemental Chamon is so high that he can't comprehend any other way of looking at it, and we know she trained that guy and he turned out awesome.

The Gold College sending Gehenna to the table shows that they know exactly the sort of education he's going to be the most appreciative of.

The very same argument was made by Celestials. Clearly kid has an affinity for more elemental aspect of magic in general then just any one of the winds. And among the collages only Brights consider that priority in magic. In both Gold and Celestials he would be pitied if he can't grok to Mystical bits. In Brights he would be exalted as a warrior born.

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

deathofrats0808 said:
Johann has that incapacity because his affinity for bit he can do is sky high. So they're not unrelated.

Not completely, but we have no evidence Mandred has Johann's problem and considering Gehenna, of all people, would definitely recognize if he did I'm dubious he has anything remotely similar.

FallenPears said:
I'm still a good few hundred messages behind so it might have been discussed already but before voting opens, what would pushing for an Indic direction of Aqshy actually mean in practical terms? I understand the Bright College has a few inspiration/leadership type spells, they just usually take second stage to to the much more focused on fireball type Aqshy, is this basically just going 'Ind Aqshy users seem to focus more on this brand of magic, as this would be useful for Mandred's future position try doing the same for him when appropriate' or is there something more concrete we're pushing here?

We do have books on the subject, so they could take inspiration from those as well, but yeah, it's a pretty broad mandate.

Tasoli said:
The very same argument was made by Celestials. Clearly kid has an affinity for more elemental aspect of magic in general then just any one of the winds. And among the collages only Brights consider that priority in magic. In both Gold and Celestials he would be pitied if he can't grok to Mystical bits. In Brights he would be exalted as a warrior born.

Uh...no? This is factually false, both because he doesn't have an Elemental affinity for Aqshy, but also because per our QM the Bright Order actively dislikes for their mages to have a high affinity for their Wind due to control issues. So...this whole paragraph is just factually wrong.

Tasoli · May 4, 2024

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This is factually false, both because he doesn't have an Elemental affinity for Aqshy,

Citiation needed;

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
ut also because per our QM the Bright Order actively dislikes for their mages to have a high affinity for their Wind due to control issues.

Link to that, that was not what GM said.

deathofrats0808 · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
The very same argument was made by Celestials. Clearly kid has an affinity for more elemental aspect of magic in general then just any one of the winds. And among the collages only Brights consider that priority in magic. In both Gold and Celestials he would be pitied if he can't grok to Mystical bits. In Brights he would be exalted as a warrior born.

The Celestials got shut down because the last example of someone like that in their College decided to fuck off to K8P and not come back because of the College's culture. The Golds didn't because Johann is an accomplished, if unusual magister. One of them has proven they can already work with that way of looking at things, the other proved they can't.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Not completely, but we have no evidence Mandred has Johann's problem and considering Gehenna, of all people, would definitely recognize if he did I'm dubious he has anything remotely similar.

I mean, sure. Just pointing out why people were linking the two.

Mopman43 · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
The very same argument was made by Celestials. Clearly kid has an affinity for more elemental aspect of magic in general then just any one of the winds. And among the collages only Brights consider that priority in magic. In both Gold and Celestials he would be pitied if he can't grok to Mystical bits. In Brights he would be exalted as a warrior born.

Let's see:

Jade: I believe Panoramia said that all the growth spells they're famous for are Mystical?
Amber: I'm not 100% clear on what Elemental Ghur even would be?
Grey: Largely mystical, I think someone has speculated before that Teclis intentionally pushed them away from Elemental to maintain the supremacy of Asur Mist-Mages?
Shyish: Again, not 100% sure what would be Elemental. The aging spells they have?
Light: Pretty sure they're more focused on the metaphorical rather than literal light.
Gold: Definitely Mystical
Celestial: Same
Bright: Seems like the only Elemental-focused.

Execute/Dumbo · May 4, 2024

Gehenna does not know what Mandred's affinity is. Nobody does. None of the magisters at the table have any way to gauge his affinity because he doesn't show any particular affinity. Just like the Bright LM, she was referring to his personality and mundane talent. Mandred is as likely to have a gift at Aqshy as he does at Elemental Chamon.

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
Citiation needed;

I mean, he theoretically could but there's no evidence of it whatsoever.

Tasoli said:
Link to that, that was not what GM said.

Sure:

Boney said:
The Brights are fairly unique in that having a high affinity for Bright Magic is very different to what they think makes a good Bright Wizard. There's a reason they're very into symbology based on chains and locks.

You can argue that doesn't mean they think a high affinity is a bad thing, but they sure don't think it's a good one.

reignonyrparade · May 4, 2024

FallenPears said:
I'm still a good few hundred messages behind so it might have been discussed already but before voting opens, what would pushing for an Indic direction of Aqshy actually mean in practical terms? I understand the Bright College has a few inspiration/leadership type spells, they just usually take second stage to to the much more focused on fireball type Aqshy, is this basically just going 'Ind Aqshy users seem to focus more on this brand of magic, as this would be useful for Mandred's future position try doing the same for him when appropriate' or is there something more concrete we're pushing here?

It is indeed a broad mandate, but PROBABLY it involves looking for somebody or a couple someboies who already has a mastery in one of the inspiration/emotion spells (even if this isn't what the college focuses, masteries just kinda happen as you're casting spells, they're still gonna have some people it happened for), tossing our Ind books at them, and seeing what they come up with. They've got 3-5 years before Mandred would be a "senior apprentice" and actually have an individual master, so this "see what they come up with" will quite possibly functionally be "compete to be the master of the emperor's son."

Mopman43 said:
Amber: I'm not 100% clear on what Elemental Ghur even would be?

Healing animals, speaking with animals, making animals see you as a pack leader, as opposed to Taking On The Traits Of Animals, I'd think.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sure:

Yeah, what that says, is not what you said it says.

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

reignonyrparade said:
Yeah, what that says, is not what you said it says.

As I clarified further, you can argue that they might just not care about affinity, but they sure don't think a high affinity is inherently a good thing that will get you lauded, which was my main point.

Tasoli · May 4, 2024

deathofrats0808 said:
The Celestials got shut down because the last example of someone like that in their College decided to fuck off to K8P and not come back because of the College's culture. The Golds didn't because Johann is an accomplished, if unusual magister. One of them has proven they can already work with that way of looking at things, the other proved they can't.

Whilst it is true that Golds can work with nontraditional Gold mage I am not sure I want to risk him turning out like Johann. In this case delibrately taking risks like this and taking harder pats is not a virtue.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sure:

Literally says nothing like what you were claiming. Brights don't care about affinity overmuch but that is nothing like your claims that they hate people with high affinities.

deathofrats0808 · May 4, 2024

Mopman43 said:
Let's see:

Jade: I believe Panoramia said that all the growth spells they're famous for are Mystical?
Amber: I'm not 100% clear on what Elemental Ghur even would be?
Grey: Largely mystical, I think someone has speculated before that Teclis intentionally pushed them away from Elemental to maintain the supremacy of Asur Mist-Mages?
Shyish: Again, not 100% sure what would be Elemental. The aging spells they have?
Light: Pretty sure they're more focused on the metaphorical rather than literal light.
Gold: Definitely Mystical
Celestial: Same
Bright: Seems like the only Elemental-focused.

In WFRP 2e, Elemental spells are the ones in the core rulebook. If someone wants to go see if there are commanlities there, they can. I think I have a vague memory of Boney listing the aspects of each Wind at some point also? Not sure.

EDIT:

Tasoli said:
Whilst it is true that Golds can work with nontraditional Gold mage I am not sure I want to risk him turning out like Johann. In this case delibrately taking risks like this and taking harder pats is not a virtue.

Happy, healthy, well respected and enjoying life? Like, the only thing that's an actual problem for Johann is that he blinded himself by failing the gilding of his eyes. I personally doubt that a theoretical Gold Mandred will be undergoing gilding, and even then, Johann had to fail twice (and, on a meta level, with very low rolls). I'm not sure that's really a concern to ahve for Mandred.

DeadmanwalkingXI · May 4, 2024

Tasoli said:
Literally says nothing like what you were claiming. Brights don't care about affinity overmuch but that is nothing like your claims that they hate people with high affinities.

As I said, maybe saying they think it's bad is an exaggeration, though that was my impression upon reading it (what with the chains and locks metaphor), but they certainly don't actually lionize people with high affinity like you were claiming they did.

Mopman43 · May 4, 2024

deathofrats0808 said:
In WFRP 2e, Elemental spells are the ones in the core rulebook. If someone wants to go see if there are commanlities there, they can. I think I have a vague memory of Boney listing the aspects of each Wind at some point also? Not sure.

Though I think Boney has said before that their split in Roleplay was centered more around gameplay reasons than lore reasons- presenting 3 different 'spell lists'- and they wouldn't necessarily all have the same definition.

(And the lack of a Cardinal split in this discussion changes up the lists as well)

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