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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It's a shame the celestials are out of the running already, I think the guy put forth a good argument for his college.
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And the fact that he had a good argument and still got sunk will be a very strong argument that they need to do better for those that resonate with the less profitable aspect of Azyr.

mathymancer said:
By the way @Boney, I think this is backwards? Ulric is said to be Taal's brother, not Rhya's, right?
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How to put this... Heidi putting it this way is not a mistake on my part. Any inconsistencies between this aspect of the myth and other myths that are more commonly told in the Old World are not authorial error.

LittenLeKitten said:
Since Dragomas is representing the will of the Emperor, I wonder if Mathilde is being seen as the will of the Empress. With that thought, does Heidi have a preference? I'm assuming Grey, cause Mathilde, but anything else?
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Not officially. Unofficially, Heidi's preference (which would be given less weight than that of the titled ruler, but not no weight) is something that she has left for Mathilde as a weapon for whatever course of action she thinks most advantageous.

Parabola said:
Would this result in him ending up as a hybrid between the Indic and Imperial paradigms? I know that people's conceptions of the Winds are different even on an individual level, but can the Brights actually teach a paradigm that isn't mainstream to their Order?
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Try it and find out.

BananaBuddy said:
Should this not be the Karak Dum Expedition not Vlag?
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Most of the people that weren't on it would know it only as the Expedition that recovered Karak Vlag. That makes it the Karak Vlag Expedition to them, and a 'well, actually' to a few.

Resonant said:
@Boney
Has the Light College's internal squabbling ended or is it still ongoing?
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It hasn't ended but it is asymptote.

Resonant said:
Also just curious, did Heidi mention how Luitpold (as a parent) feels about their son being a Wizard?
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Trusting in Heidi's judgement.

Resonant said:
Lastly, is trading support for an eventual backing of the Dwarven Nexus hellwars considered viable?
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Yes. The Amethyst Wizard did explicitly mention it as a matter of concern.

cog-nito said:
@Boney

This seems like it could use Boney's input, how big of a affinity for Ulgu does Mandred keeping up that subconscious Ulgu enchantment indicate he has?

Mathilde would in-universe presumably know, and it's fairly important for the current vote.
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It could reflect an affinity for Ulgu, a natural talent for enchantment, or just that he really liked that toy.
 
If the argument for golds is that he can just keep two potent buffs on himself going 24/7, i am not going to consider that a plus.
Yes, they might not be very difficult spells, but someone mainlining magic constantly for everything can't be healthy, and i suspect that is going to lead to miscasts eventually.
 
chocolote12 said:
That's the beauty. Half my argument is that he just won't be allergic to what other Gold Wizards can do for him.

Do you understand? In addition to being most likely to become a Lord, Gold Mandred can also have the support of his entire college, who can also cast spells to make him better.

The best spells to make him better, which work not just on fear or moving men around but in agriculture and in justice and in good bargaining and in trade agreements and in politicking and in the horse trading necessary to become not just Prince of Altdorf but Even Emperor!

Not just better as a general, but in every aspect of his life; peace as well as war.
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What you're describing isn't a Wizard, its an Elector Count, because literally every single Elector Count alive and quite possibly every Elector Count that has ever lived have been similarly Not Allergic and Rich.

It is a valid argument, but its also kinda an argument heavily undercut by that fact.

EDIT: Hell, Heidi herself counts as sufficiently Not Allergic and Rich to do this.
 
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Boney said:
It hasn't ended but it is asymptote.
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What? An asymptote is a line that approaches, but never actually touches a curve. I don't quite get what it's supposed to mean here.

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cheesyme said:
What you're describing isn't a Wizard, its an Elector Count, because literally every single Elector Count alive and quite possibly every Elector Count that has ever lived have been similarly Not Allergic and Rich.

It is a valid argument, but its also kinda an argument heavily undercut by that fact.

EDIT: Hell, Heidi herself counts as sufficiently Not Allergic and Rich to do this.
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I think Heidi might be allergic due to Divine energies actually.
 
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HanChenYou said:
Yeah, Matilde's internal monologue about Mandred left a really sour taste in my mouth.

Thanks for clarifying that it was more a reflection of her own childhood baggage than something else. She had an utterly traumatic end to her childhood.
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Honestly she reminded me of myself, I like kids but I have literally zero idea how to interact with them.
 
I remember there being speculation (from Andres?) that Thyrus Gormann might have been the one to translate our Indic Aqshy works himself, based on there being a tiny tiny pool of people with the knowledge of both the language and of esoteric Aqshy needed for the task, and Gormann's having named of one of his personally enchanted items The Fire Stone of Agni, with Agni meaning "Fire" in Sanskrit.

If so, he's going to already be familiar with the material we're proposing by virtue of having read it before we did.

EDIT: yep, found it:

Andres said:
I think I found out how this particular miracle might've been achieved. WFRP 4e: Altdorf, page 21, the Thyrus Gormann section:


Agni is a Sanskrit word, and the Fire Stone of Agni is one of Thyrus' creations, and this is what he looks like:
I think Thyrus might be an immigrant from Ind or of Indic descent, and he might've been the one to translate our books.
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Valmond said:
If the argument for golds is that he can just keep two potent buffs on himself going 24/7, i am not going to consider that a plus.
Yes, they might not be very difficult spells, but someone mainlining magic constantly for everything can't be healthy, and i suspect that is going to lead to miscasts eventually.
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Magical Items can't miscast; the Golds are the college best at actually making them. He just needs to not be allergic to reap that insane extra buff above and beyond his own awesome affinity for the wind.
cheesyme said:
What you're describing isn't a Wizard, its an Elector Count, because literally every single Elector Count alive and quite possibly every Elector Count that has ever lived have been similarly Not Allergic and Rich.

It is a valid argument, but its also kinda an argument heavily undercut by that fact.

EDIT: Hell, Heidi herself counts as sufficiently Not Allergic and Rich to do this.
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Elector Counts don't load themselves up on wind magic because people are reasonably scared of doing that. Magic is a witch's toy that contains the bite of dread chaos. The people of Altdorf only pretend to be okay with it, because thinking about it hard gives them anxiety.

Mandred could change that.

No one before him and possibly no one after him will ever be in a position to rule the Empire with Chamon at his right hand.
 
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pucflek said:
I will be real, i don´t think this will ever be relevant. Mathilde is not gonna give up Branulhune any time soon and will live a lot longer than usual. A promisory note for a sword he might wield in seventy years is near worthless as a consideration for this.

EDIT: And even if she up and died tomorrow, the sword would probably be bequeathed to Eike instead.
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I'm pretty sure they were talking about Dragon Tooth, the Reikland Runefang, not Branulhune.
 
cheesyme said:
What you're describing isn't a Wizard, its an Elector Count, because literally every single Elector Count alive and quite possibly every Elector Count that has ever lived have been similarly Not Allergic and Rich.

It is a valid argument, but its also kinda an argument heavily undercut by that fact.

EDIT: Hell, Heidi herself counts as sufficiently Not Allergic and Rich to do this.
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No, technically its an argument *against* evey kind of wizard but gold. Because they *are* allergic.

So i dont believe it is undercut.
 
To clarify @Boney Is Dragomas' plan here to come to a consensus among the various college representatives present as to which college they'll recommend Heidi and the Emperor should put Mandred in?

Or is the plan more so to provide them with a short list of the most suitable options along with a list of pros and cons for each option attached?
 
chocolote12 said:
Elector Counts don't load themselves up on wind magic because people are reasonably scared of doing that. Magic is a witch's toy that contains the bite of dread chaos.

No one before him and possibly no one after him will ever be in a position to rule the Empire with Chamon at his right hand.
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I doubt the "no one after him" bit unless the next Everchosen manages to kill the world, but the no one before him bit and the precedent he would set are fair.

They just also feel utterly inimical to the "actually trying to get Mandred into the College he's best suited for," because we're effectively abandoning him actually being a wizard to go "if we pick this College then Mandred can Pay To Win in life."

This is not to say its a bad choice, or even that it might not be the most effective one for improving the Empire, but holy shit does it leave a nasty taste in my mouth, and it really comes off as potentially sabotaging the actual point of this vote, to put Mandred in the College best for him.
Kornet said:
No, technically its an argument *against* evey kind of wizard but gold. Because they *are* allergic.

So i dont believe it is undercut.
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Again, any Elector Count who wanted to could do this, and odds are so could a fair few lesser nobility. Hell, so could basically any Gold Journeyman who wanted to badly enough. And from what I recall, Gold's impact on society comes a lot less from those buffs and their effects and a lot more from their transmutations.

As such, it is inherently undercut by being, you know, not actually a wizard thing, not actually related to Mandred being a wizard in any real way shape or form, and not all that impactful on the setting so far despite how easy it should be if its as effective as you guys are arguing.

You two are literally arguing for something that would work just as well if Mandred wasn't a wizard at all.

IronFist said:
I don't agree with Chocolate12's argument, but in this case, they actually mean actually allergic, and not the manaphobic way.

Because an Aqshy wizard could not put Chamon in his brainmeats.
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Yes, I am aware, but while an Aqshy wizard could not put Chamon in their brains, every single Elector Count alive could.
 
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Something that might be worth factoring in is what promises the various colleges will make for support. Mathilde is of the view that Gormann is likely promising Marsner that Bright Mandred would be pointed towards threats in and around Reikland to do something about, specifically mentioned Drachenfels, the Lichemaster, the Blood Keep and the Vaults. None of that would be safe, but it would help the Empire and others.

Mathilde doesn't seem to have any insight into what Gehenna and Haruspex are discussing, and she thinks that Dragomas is likely most aligned to the Jades. What might the Golds and Jades be suggesting to their likeliest supporters?
 
But then, a Bright wizard could put Aqshy in many other people's brainmeats for amazing results. Especially one trained with the inclusion of techniques from a culture that sees Aqshy as the passion/inspiration magic.

He can delegate things he's not good at and focus on being awesome in ways both most fitting for his personality AND most easily seen as awesome.
 
cheesyme said:
They just also feel utterly inimical to the "actually trying to get Mandred into the College he's best suited for," because we're effectively abandoning him actually being a wizard to go "if we pick this College then Mandred can Pay To Win in life."
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He can do it all in addition to having the Wind most likely to get him to Lord, not as opposed to it.

Chamon is so insanely good that I can tout a side benefit as strong as a main benefit but the main benefit for him is that it's literally his most elementally aligned wind already.
Boney said:
"Everyone knows us," she says. "Those that don't like us respect us, and rulers definitely respect the taxes and materiel we help their cities generate. When it comes to faith, steel, and gunpowder, we're experts in two of the three. I doubt any of you can do better. As for the kid, I've only ever encountered one more suited for the manipulation of elemental Chamon than he is. An Elector Count that can harden his own armour and empower his own blade is one that will go down in history."
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Chamon will let Mandred be the best wizard and the best elector count. He doesn't have to leave either on the wayside. Mandred can really have it all.
 
So one thing I'd like to bring up is that Mathilde and Heidi specifically mentioned how it would be a good idea to make sure that Mandred is surrounded by trustworthy people who he can properly delegate things do.

This is something we would want to do at an early age and having him be a Grey makes it a lot easier for Mathilde to do so and in general the Grey mindset/training means that he would be a lot more likely to be able to identify when someone untrustworthy is trying to manipulate him or do something sneaky.

Also a thought occurs, if he is a Grey then we can more directly help him by developing spells that he'd likely want to use. For example the proposed Shadow Knife spell and potential Shadow Sword spell that we wanted to make that would allow others to use our sword style.
 
cog-nito said:
To clarify @Boney Is Dragomas' plan here to come to a consensus among the various college representatives present as to which college they'll recommend Heidi and the Emperor should put Mandred in?

Or is the plan more so to provide them with a short list of the most suitable options along with a list of pros and cons for each option attached?
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The former. The Emperor recognizes that it would be foolishness to believe he could make a more informed decision on the matter than a hand-picked panel of subject-matter experts.
 
The issue I have with jade is that the Jades have the Druid issue. It's highly divisive inside the college, so I bet someone there will try to teach him religion, and it won't be Ranald.
 
chocolote12 said:
He can do it all in addition to having the Wind most likely to get him to Lord, not as opposed to it.

Chamon is so insanely good that I can tout a side benefit as strong as a main benefit but the main benefit for him is that it's literally his most elementally aligned wind already.

Chamon will let Mandred be the best wizard and the best elector count. He doesn't have to leave either on the wayside. Mandred can really have it all.
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Ah yes, the wind most likely to get him to being a Lord, when we have statements that Mandred is already inclined and fitting to what Bright Wizards including their Magister Lords actually do and where they have their fame and reputation.

Don't try to peddle that with me, what Chamon is more likely to get than Aqshy is specifically Battle Magic.

Additionally, you have not been touting a side benefit as being as strong as the main benefit, because the main benefit has not been touted. I have seen literally Fuck All arguments about Mandred making use of elemental Chamon for actually doing shit, being the best wizard he could be, or indeed being the best Elector Count he could be.

What I have seen is arguments on Mandred being inclined towards what a Bright Wizard would and should be doing, with Bright Magic being fitting and helpful to the type of Elector Count he most likely will be, and therefor that its the best College for him to go to.

The primary argument for Chamon is and has been "well if he does this he can pay other people to wizard for him so he can be a better Elector Count in the same way any other Elector Count can."

EDIT: Again, I feel the need to state that this is a valid argument, and it would make for a good Elector Cout. I will not argue that this isn't a good option for him, nor will I try for Doom and Gloom about him having problems in the college because he almost certainly won't!

But I'm sorry man, if we're voting on "what is the best College and Wind for this child," and the main options are "the wind that doesn't make him more allergic than any other Elector Count to stuffing enchanted items on" and "the wind that actually fits him," one of these arguments feels so much fucking better to me than the other.
 
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chocolote12 said:
Magical Items can't miscast; the Golds are the college best at actually making them. He just needs to not be allergic to reap that insane extra buff above and beyond his own awesome affinity for the wind.
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Ok, why are not gold wizards constantly doing that?
Like, this is the college known for crafters and enchanted items, why is not every wizard decked out on these magic items that give such huge benefits to everything with no drawbacks?

This feels like a "one clever trick" territory, and that never works out well.
 
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