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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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cheesyme said:
The primary argument for Chamon is and has been "well if he does this he can pay other people to wizard for him so he can be a better Elector Count in the same way any other Elector Count can."
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In a world where everyone likes magic this would have weight.

It is not a world where anyone likes magic except wizards.

Elector Counts do not do this. They will not. It is a matter of will. In another age, a thousand years from now, you'd have a point. It is not a thousand years from now. It is now, and they do not do it.

He is the only one who can because he is the only one who will.
Valmond said:
Ok, why are not gold wizards constantly doing that?
Like, this is the college known for crafters and enchanted items, why is not every wizard decked out on these magic items that give such huge benefits to everything with no drawbacks?

This feels like a "one clever trick" territory, and that never works out well.
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Gold wizards do, actually, use those spells when they're doing important things.

Max is literally in the quest, using it for everything he can stick it on. It's his main trick.

Edit: Misread 'not gold' as 'not-gold'.
 
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chocolote12 said:
Because all non-gold wizards are allergic to it, as Boney has said, and most gold wizards do, actually, use those spells when they're doing important things.

Max is literally in the quest, using it for everything he can stick it on. It's his main trick.
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I literally said magic items.
Your argument is that he can just slap two magic items on himself, not even cast the spell, use magic items, why, if this is so damn great an advantage, is every gold wizard doing it?

And, yes, Max is using it on everything he can, and presumably he can't use it on everything, so there are limits, what those limits are, i don't fucking know.
The argument that there is this one trick that will make him awesome at everything, while ignoring rest of the wind (golds are noted to be bad at politics on average), and ignoring how another has been pointed out to be very good for his personality and interests, while also very good at educating people who can keep their cool (in spite of being the wind of passion), is not a very good one to my mind.
 
chocolote12 said:
In a world where everyone likes magic this would have weight.

It is not a world where anyone likes magic except wizards.

Elector Counts do not do this. They will not. It is a matter of will. In another age, a thousand years from now, you'd have a point. It is not a thousand years from now. It is now, and they do not do it.

He is the only one who can because he is the only one who will.
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This is a valid argument if you want to try and influence Elector Counts towards using magical items on themselves, if one that ignores that those Elector Counts and indeed Mandred himself can just hire either Gold Wizards or just buy these items for their advisors, who would be non magical and therefor exactly as good at using the items as Mandred here.

This is not however an argument that pays the slightest bit of attention towards Mandred's best interests, nor is it an argument that goes in an even remotely comfortable direction naratively.

It is not something I like, it is not something I want, its not even something I'm entirely comfortable accepting, and as such it doesn't matter that in a white room where we ignore everything else we could say "with these spells Mandred could be a better Elector Count."

As such, I'm gonna go with fuck that, vote for Mandred to go to the College that notably actually fits him, and advise him to hire a Gold Wizard to be an advisor when he takes his position. This can and should go on someone else, Mandred should go to the College that suits him best as a person, and that college is the Bright College.
 
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pucflek said:
I will be real, i don´t think this will ever be relevant. Mathilde is not gonna give up Branulhune any time soon and will live a lot longer than usual. A promisory note for a sword he might wield in seventy years is near worthless as a consideration for this.

EDIT: And even if she up and died tomorrow, the sword would probably be bequeathed to Eike instead.
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I was talking about the Runefang :V
 
cheesyme said:
Ah yes, the wind most likely to get him to being a Lord, when we have statements that Mandred is already inclined and fitting to what Bright Wizards including their Magister Lords actually do and where they have their fame and reputation.

Don't try to peddle that with me, what Chamon is more likely to get than Aqshy is specifically Battle Magic.

Additionally, you have not been touting a side benefit as being as strong as the main benefit, because the main benefit has not been touted. I have seen literally Fuck All arguments about Mandred making use of elemental Chamon for actually doing shit, being the best wizard he could be, or indeed being the best Elector Count he could be.

What I have seen is arguments on Mandred being inclined towards what a Bright Wizard would and should be doing, with Bright Magic being fitting and helpful to the type of Elector Count he most likely will be, and therefor that its the best College for him to go to.

The primary argument for Chamon is and has been "well if he does this he can pay other people to wizard for him so he can be a better Elector Count in the same way any other Elector Count can."

EDIT: Again, I feel the need to state that this is a valid argument, and it would make for a good Elector Cout. I will not argue that this isn't a good option for him, nor will I try for Doom and Gloom about him having problems in the college because he almost certainly won't!

But I'm sorry man, if we're voting on "what is the best College and Wind for this child," and the main options are "the wind that doesn't make him more allergic than any other Elector Count to stuffing enchanted items on" and "the wind that actually fits him," one of these arguments feels so much fucking better to me than the other.
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First, I would ask you to cool your jets and try to be a bit more civil.

Second, we on the stage of discusiion when the main benefits for the colleges have been stated and understood by most participants, and we are listing additional perks.

I but skim the thread but even I am aware of the main benefits stated for the chamon party:


One of the winds the prince actually has a strong affinity for (others being azyr and maaaaybe ulgy)

A lot of mind affecting sprlls which make the user and his compatriots more clever and competent which can be used in every aspect of rulership.

A logical disposition which is *not antagonistic* to ruling (important, as there are some concerns about, say, aqshy)

Implied psychological compatibility (dividing thing into true and not true)


Less importantly, high compatibility with parafernalia, including armor, swords and, yes, mind-affecting chamon artifacts which we tried to acquire but were told they are incompatible with us.



I didn't make any of these arguments, I am merely listing them and can't be arsed to quoylte-hunt tge sources.


All of this I gathered while not being that deep into the discussion and not actually supporting chamon as the first choice.


I am baffled how have you managed to miss the bulk of the discussion
 
I've been swung to the Bright's. Not only is it reuniting the dream team of Gorman and Not-Franz, but it's the wind most ideal to turn Mandred into a leader of men. He will be a flame of inspiration, courage, and leadership, leading from the front—where he should be. He'll forge connections with the military, know their tactics, their strengths, their weaknesses, and he will be able to lead them to victory.

It is the wind that is most likely to make him beloved by those he rules.

Here's an old comment of mine about inspirational aqshy:

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Also the Indic Aqshy books remind me of a scene from Jim Butcher's Codex Alera, where in the first book a fire mage uses a torch to incite bravery in his own army and primal fear in the enemy.

The effect is noticeably more devastating than if he'd simply set them all on fire.
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Imagine an Elector who could do that.
 
To be fair, I just looked into the spellbooks in the infothreadmarks, and elemental Chamon does seem pretty good at kicking ass. Aqshy has a lot of utility abilities at low levels, strangely enough.

Mandred wasn't said to be bad at mystical Chamon, so it is possible he could learn Law of Logic and the like. That makes this more of a tradeoff between "passionate leader of men who kicks ass, inspires courage, and instills terror in enemies" vs "logical ruler who supplements his abilities with the steely might and supernatural excellence of magic".

Mandred feels to me like a lively child whom I want to make more lively, rather than more logical and rigid. A flame in the darkness, a beacon of courage in the coming times, someone to be remembered. If everything goes well, that is.

Dragomas said that this could be the best thing for the Colleges since Magnus, and remember how Magnus had proven himself? By standing in the fire.

Edit: ah, Nerdasaurus, you ninja.
 
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Valmond said:
I literally said magic items.
Your argument is that he can just slap two magic items on himself, not even cast the spell, use magic items, why, if this is so damn great an advantage, is every gold wizard doing it?
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Why doesn't the Bright College pass out those fireball rings to every journeyman?
Valmond said:
The argument that there is this one trick that will make him awesome at everything, while ignoring rest of the wind (golds are noted to be bad at politics on average), and ignoring how another has been pointed out to be very good for his personality and interests, while also very good at educating people who can keep their cool (in spite of being the wind of passion), is not a very good one to my mind.
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Because I don't feel like laying out the twenty different ways they have to transmute people into corpses or know the true providence of any steel or slap arrows out of the air with their mind.

He will have them, and he will have them the best because that's his actual suitability for personality and interests, as I've quoted from the post. He will have them and he will have other spells too.

Most winds don't have many spells that are good for being a politician, but the Gold wind does, so the guy whose job it is to be a politician will have advanced access to those spells.
cheesyme said:
This is not however an argument that pays the slightest bit of attention towards Mandred's best interests, nor is it an argument that goes in an even remotely comfortable direction naratively.
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Address this, please. You don't have to agree with it -- I don't want to be weirdly hostile, so I'll check my tone here and apologize if I'm coming off that way. I quoted it before but I don't know if you noticed it, sorry.

I feel that this part of the main post says that he's best suited for Elemental Chamon.
Boney said:
As for the kid, I've only ever encountered one more suited for the manipulation of elemental Chamon than he is. An Elector Count that can harden his own armour and empower his own blade is one that will go down in history."
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Out of all the Colleges in the main post the only guys who say that he's actually good at their wind are the Golds. The Brights don't care and the Jades think they can win in spite of it.
 
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I think at this point my personal preference are Grey or Gold with some deal to ensure Gehenna rather than the average beep-boop Gold gets to steer Mandred.
Brights constantly seem like a sad-but-necessary place to put a child and their argument of just pushing his martial side hard feels kinda meh for a ruler who already shows plenty of talent anyway. No need for fireballs when you can just sword good. Jade is more compelling but since Mathilde knows that that order is a mess we might as well dodge it.
 
These are good points on picking Chamon or Aqshy college for the utility or synergy respectively. But my thoughts are still on the biased Gray college; Both as someone said to develop Mathilde's sword spells and help Mandred discern who are trustworthy but also to build a network for safety and spying.

Further more would it hopefully give him a chance to increase his intrigue stats with training.
 
So, outside of what college to support, what can we get from that College if we support them?

Just because we would support them on merit doesn't mean they need to know that.

No good plotter does something they would do for free when they can convince people to pay them to do it.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So, outside of what college to support, what can we get from that College if we support them?

Just because we would support them on merit doesn't mean they need to no that.

No good plotter does something they would do for free when they can convince people to pay them to do it.
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I'm solid on what I'll vote for from Brights: incorporating the Indic paradigm. It's perfect for Mandred. It does not give us anything, but tbh that's not important to me compared to getting him the best magical education available.
 
Boney said:
He's a throwback," Heidi says to you after you find the right wording to delicately raise your concerns.
…
He'll listen to his mother and godmother, and to other advisors worthy of trust."
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And this can't help but make me wonder if whether Ranald/Heidi did something deliberately to stack the metaphorical deck for his genetics at his conception to make this happen so that he was significantly less capable than he could be otherwise so that he would make an easier puppet emperor for them to manipulate.

And then for it all to come crumbling down when by pure chance he turned out to be magically talented. Perhaps not even Ranald wins every hand the way he wants.
 
Indic-influenced Bright sounds really solid to me, not gonna lie. My original preference was Gold, but between the potential he'd get from a more rounded Bright curriculum and where his own nature seems to be taking him I've been pushed towards Aqshy.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
So, outside of what college to support, what can we get from that College if we support them?

Just because we would support them on merit doesn't mean they need to know that.

No good plotter does something they would do for free when they can convince people to pay them to do it.
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Unspent reputation accrues. We already have some good leverage if we want because we know Gehenna and Johan; better to keep banking it than to cash out without something in mind.
NSMS said:
Indic-influenced Bright sounds really solid to me, not gonna lie. My original preference was Gold, but between the potential he'd get from a more rounded Bright curriculum and where his own nature seems to be taking him I've been pushed towards Aqshy.
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His nature is for Chamon. The brights don't care about his wind affinity.
 
I admit that a lot of my pushing for Indic-style Aqshy comes from the fact that I'm very interested to see what Boney can cook up for it in terms of further worldbuilding.
 
chocolote12 said:
Address this, please. You don't have to agree with it -- I don't want to be weirdly hostile, so I'll check my tone here and apologize if I'm coming off that way -- but this part of the main post says that he's best suited for Elemental Chamon.
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Boney said:
"I'll say what everyone else has been dancing around," he says. "The boy is a warrior. I've trained full-grown men with less affinity for war than what he already posssesses. And nobody can deny that when the Army of Reikland and the Army of the Empire march to war, it is most often the Bright Wizards that march with them. Any noble whose respect is worth having has seen enough battlefields to have seen at least one our fires have danced across. The advantages are obvious and the disadvantages are less than any other. You all know this."
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Boney said:
"He's a throwback," Heidi says to you after you find the right wording to delicately raise your concerns. "The Holswigs had always been responsible stewards but middling warriors, and their blood has been dominant since the time of Wilhelm. But the Schliesteins had a more martial reputation, which has been brought to the fore from the influence of his Stirlander mother." Even though you were listening for it, you can't tell whether there were scare quotes around 'Stirlander'. "I think that's going to be a lot more useful than it should be in a sensible world - people are a lot more willing to listen to and obey someone that goes into battle and delegates the administration than the other way around. And he's a good boy. He'll listen to his mother and godmother, and to other advisors worthy of trust."
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mathymancer said:
Mandred got his stats in honour of his tenth birthday. Decent Diplomacy and Martial, that's good for a future ruler. Slightly above average Stewardship, also good for a ruler. Below average learning, kind of bad for a Wizard, below average intrigue, extra bad for a Grey Wizard (not that I think Mandred should have been a Grey Wizard in any case) and arguably bad for a secret Ranaldite. Speaking of which, below average piety, which is worse than it seems because it's actually a 4d6 roll - Mandred had the potential to have a pretty high Piety, but it was not to be. Looks like his secret Godmother has her work cut out for her.
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Mandred may be best magically at Elemental Chamon, sure. But with a focus on Diplomacy and Martial, with both Heidi and Thyrus Gormann agreeing, as an Elector Count, Mandred is most likely to be a Leader of Men and Armies. He is going to be making a difference first by making friends, and then by leading those friends to war, and having advisors for learning and logic and intrigue and such.

The College and Wind best known and suited for those preferences? The one that he'll be dealing with all the time regardless of whether or not he goes to that College? The one we specifically have things for to make even better for this exact sort of situation and person? The one that therefor most fits him as a person/Elector Count, even if its not necessarily the one he's most aligned to magically?

That's Aqshy, and therefor I think Aqshy is the Wind and College most suited to him, and therefor to making him the best Elector Count and Wizard he can be.
 
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Alratan said:
And this can't help but make me wonder if whether Ranald/Heidi did something deliberately to stack the metaphorical deck for his genetics at his conception to make this happen so that he was significantly less capable than he could be otherwise so that he would make an easier puppet emperor for them to manipulate.

And then for it all to come crumbling down when by pure chance he turned out to be magically talented. Perhaps not even Ranald wins every hand the way he wants.
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This is Ranald, mister 5th face being the mage was a possibility. I'd say its more a matter of him taking opportunities where he finds them. Or something along the lines of the only reason Tzeentch has more plans than Ranald is that Tzeentch plans include him losing too.
 
chocolote12 said:
Unspent reputation accrues. We already have some good leverage if we want because we know Gehenna and Johan; better to keep banking it than to cash out without something in mind.

His nature is for Chamon. The brights don't care about his wind affinity.
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Nature as a person; the desire to be a general, a knight, a warrior, etc, all fit the wind of passion much more closely than the wind of logic.
 
NSMS said:
Indic-influenced Bright sounds really solid to me, not gonna lie. My original preference was Gold, but between the potential he'd get from a more rounded Bright curriculum and where his own nature seems to be taking him I've been pushed towards Aqshy.
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I´m not sure how much influence on his education we have once its handed to the college, especially since its entirely foreign concept to what they usually teach ngl. I don´t think this is something people should rely on as a fact rather than distant hope only supported by Boney´s "Try it and find out".
 
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