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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Imo, the best reason to push for Grey is if we want Mandred as an apprentice.

He's got the stats for the Mathildian school of diplomacy, but the Mathildian school doesn't really need grey magic: You just need to be killy enough and friendly enough.

The Irony of Mathilde "I used DIP as my Dump stat" Weber becoming the Mandred's diplomacy advisor...

Mathilde's Diplomacy Lessons, summarized: I kill stuff for/with people with/for the power of friendship.
 
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CeBrudras said:
The reputation of the Greys could actually be a great asset to a ruler who isn't that intrigue-ish. If everyone expects him to be great at that stuff they won't test his mediocre actual skills. It's kinda like an inherent bluff.
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Which is great right until someone sees through him, the protection of such a simple misdirection would work on mediocre schemers, they are not really the concern here.
 
Against Grey because it doesn't fit him, even if he likes the idea of it.
Against Jade because all the benefits are for the Jades first, the province second and Mandred not at all.

Between Gold and Bright… I lean slightly towards Bright. Partly because I think the culture would fit him better and partly for the opportunity to inject some Indic lore into the Colleges.
 
IronFist said:
Imo, the best reason to push for Grey is if we want Mandred as an apprentice.

He's got the stats for the Mathildian school of diplomacy, but the Mathildian school doesn't really need grey magic: You just need to be killy enough and friendly enough.

The Irony of Mathilde "I used DIP as my Dump stat" Weber becoming the Mandred's diplomacy advisor...

Mathilde: I kill stuff for people with the power of friendship.
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The Mathilde School of diplomacy involves going out there and personally killing monsters to make yourself liked which is not really advice that would help a prince much since they are not meant to go down goblin holes alone with a knife between their teeth. Now of course there is a version of that advice where he also takes his army with him, but that's called 'Have as many wars as you can to gain friends' which er... I am not sure the aristocracy and the populace of Reikland would appreciate.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
Not even Mathilde does that.
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She did get into straight up fights when she extricated Van Hal and then early in the K8P Expedition (at the first gate) and then in the Vlag expedition when duelling the big Daemon. She also did the infiltration thing, the high Learning wizard support multiple times and also took overall command on multiple occasions.

There's no specific requirement for being inspiring - as long as Mandred is a good fighter and is also good at commanding forces he'll automatically win points regardless of the College.

What approach he's going to take will be influenced by the College but the cool logic of Gold Order is just as valid as the passion of the Brights or the sneaky ambushes favoured by Greys or the focus on healing and logistics that the Jades can bring to the table.

IronFist said:
The Irony of Mathilde "I used DIP as my Dump stat" Weber becoming the Mandred's diplomacy advisor...
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What's really ironic is that Martial was Mathilde's initial dump stat.

Execute/Dumbo said:
His own mother doesn't even defend him on this, she just says they can be careful to only let the right people become his advisors.
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I think she's got absurdly high standards of what a 10 year old should do. It reminds me of that average familiarity comic.

Thyrus is good in the sense that he appreciates how good Mandred is for his age.
 
How good Mandred is personally is all well and fine, but we should also consider the following argument:

Being steeped in Chamon means that he can be loaded up with Enchanted magical items that cast Law of Logic because he's not allergic to having vast quantities of it processed inside of his skull. (I'm referencing two spells, Enchant Item is a specific spell they have).

That's a flat +5 to every single one of his stats all day every day.
That's a flat +20 to every important thing he does with basically no chance of miscasts.

It doesn't matter what his starting affinity is for anything at that point.

It's called the Gold wind because you can pay for it. Total Chamon Supremacy.
 
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DragonParadox said:
The Mathilde School of diplomacy involves going out there and personally killing monsters to make yourself liked which is not really advice that would help a prince much since they are not meant to go down goblin holes alone with a knife between their teeth. Now of course there is a version of that advice where he also takes his army with him, but that's called 'Have as many wars as you can to gain friends' which er... I am not sure the aristocracy and the populace of Reikland would appreciate.
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They definitely would if he kept winning said wars lol.

Though with how high his diplo base stat is, I doubt he's going to actually experience all that much difficulty in becoming well liked by his subjects
 
DragonParadox said:
Which is great right until someone sees through him, the protection of such a simple misdirection would work on mediocre schemers, they are not really the concern here.
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Mediocre schemers are exactly the problems of someone who is mid at Intrigue. Experts are gonna take a swing and be an issue anyway, but normally you could focus on those and just no-sell the amateurs. The bluff acts as a replacement You-Need-To-This-Tall-To-Ride to get rid of distracting small fry.
 
chocolote12 said:
How good Mandred is personally is all well and fine, but we should also consider the following argument:

Being steeped in Chamon means that he can be loaded up with Enchanted magical items that cast Law of Logic because he's not allergic to having vast quantities of it processed inside of his skull. (I'm referencing two spells, Enchant Item is a specific spell they have).

That's a flat +5 to every single one of his stats all day every day.
That's a flat +20 to every important thing he does with basically no chance of miscasts.

It doesn't matter what his starting affinity is for anything at that point.

It's called the Gold wind because you can pay for it. Total Chamon Supremacy.
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Where exactly are you getting these numbers from?
 
I feel like Grey could fit Mandred. Especially with the Ranald part of the update -

Boney said:
Mandred takes very well to a take on Ranald who wields cleverness as a weapon, instead of hiding behind it as a shield.
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He will be playing court games as an elector count. That is unavoidable.

But they Grey collage would definitely be able to sharpen in cleverness into a weapon to fight those court games with. And he was interested in that.
 
CeBrudras said:
Mediocre schemers are exactly the problems of someone who is mid at Intrigue. Experts are gonna take a swing and be an issue anyway, but normally you could focus on those and just no-sell the amateurs. The bluff acts as a replacement You-Need-To-This-Tall-To-Ride to get rid of distracting small fry.
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The only reason you would be that swarmed by mediocre schemers as a lord would be if you are disliked, a problem that is best solved IMO by not being disliked.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
Andres, those are scenes of a child taking his first steps into basic media literacy while hearing cool stories about gods, not the signs of a driven intrigue expert.
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He's 10. What signs of a driven intrigue expert are you looking for exactly? Reacting very positively to tales of a trickster god is the closest you'd get at his age.
 
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WhiteNights said:
He will be playing court games as an elector count. That is unavoidable.

But they Grey collage would definitely be able to sharpen in cleverness into a weapon to fight those court games with. And he was interested in that.
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I have to ask, which part of the update was that? Because I cannot find any indication of this kid caring about 'court games', his greatest interest in Ranald was when the god was couched in martial-sounding metaphors which is normal since again this is a ten year old.
 
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cog-nito said:
Where exactly are you getting these numbers from?
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The WHF2E rule book. Enchant Item causes an item to become an enchanted item for one hour that possesses the properties of being Magical (you can punch ghosts with it) and giving +5 to a related stat (so a sword could boost strength but not manual dexterity like you'd use for pen writing; a circlet could boost Fellowship but not toughness).

Law of Logic just lets you focus for a minute or two and then come out swinging with +20 to your roll. As a noble who doesn't work on a split second time scale that's an overwhelming and astonishingly huge statistical advantage to his competency.

I'm not joking when I say that he could literally purchase Being That Good.

He can also wear whatever armor he wants, with its own powerful enchantments as a slab of steel that's been worked over by the Gold College, a benefit no other College can truly match (and the valiant attempt of the armor of Von Tarnus merely underlines how much better the real deal is).
 
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DragonParadox said:
I have to ask, which part of the update was that? Because I cannot find any indication of this kid caring about 'court games', his greatest interest in Ranald was when the god was couched in martial-sounding metaphors which is normal since against this is a ten year old.
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He was interested in using cleverness to trick other people. That was the part I quoted.

The court games are the inevitable part of being an elector count. And we do want Mandred to have the tools he needs to be a good elector count
 
WhiteNights said:
He was interested in using cleverness to trick other people. That was the part I quoted.

The court games are the inevitable part of being an elector count. And we do want Mandred to have the tools he needs to be a good elector count
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He is interested after some very interesting people poked his interest centers with a great deal of skill and deliberate intent. Expended in the below answer,

Andres said:
He's 10. What signs of a driven intrigue expert are you looking for exactly? Reacting very positively to the tales of a trickster god is the closest you'd get at his age.
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I do not think so, the closest thing would be something like 'being a prankster' or 'being a good liar for his age'. Mandred had a good opinion of Ranald after not one but two high diplomacy characters, one of them his mother, tried to paint the god in the best light to him. No surprise he reacted positively to those stories, I think an actual rock would have thought well of Ranald under those circumstances (or you know a dwarf, closest thing to an animate rock :V ).
 
Zero Gravitas said:
She did get into straight up fights when she extricated Van Hal and then early in the K8P Expedition (at the first gate) and then in the Vlag expedition when duelling the big Daemon. She also did the infiltration thing, the high Learning wizard support multiple times and also took overall command on multiple occasions.
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Note that the fights when she extracted Van Hal and the K8P expedition were not in fact the feats that won her so much renown, she nearly got cold-clocked in that fight with the big Daemon, Mandred isn't that good (innately, he could get better, but he could also get better at it in the other colleges) at the infiltration thing or the high learning wizard support thing, and after she took command those multiple occasions she specifically took traits to avoid doing that more. The things you are talking about are cool, but are mostly ancillary to what actually got her her rank and renown. You said you wanted what was best for Mandred, and you keep pointing to things that would be more appreciated and get him more access to resources and favors in the other colleges as proof that that's the Grey college.
Andres said:
He's 10. What signs of a driven intrigue expert are you looking for exactly? Reacting very positively to the tales of a trickster god is the closest you'd get at his age.
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I'm looking for signs that would make the Grey order the best option for him, because I was responding to the implicit statement that the Greys were best for him. And what signs I'm seeing- notably, that his Intrigue is nearly half his Martial and that he hasn't shown any particular drive in his royal education focused on this sort of stuff -do not point to that. Because you're right, reacting very positively to the tales of a trickster god, specifically, to one specific interpretation of a trickster god, is the best sign he has, and it's not a very good one. Could he learn to be capable? Sure. Do I think that'd be the best path for him? No.
WhiteNights said:
The court games are the inevitable part of being an elector count. And we do want Mandred to have the tools he needs to be a good elector count
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I mean, he's going to be taught how to manage court intrigue. He's still a noble. And on top of that, he's a noble who'll get advisors, ones likely hand selected by a manipulator capable enough to get married to the emperor. Dude has nothing to worry about on that front.
 
Also another factor at hand that I don't think is being accounted for, even if Mandred stays at low raw Intrigue, it is entirely possible he obtains traits in a specific subject that he's good at or trained in which make the results great, even if overall he's not great at Intrigue without effort on his part.
 
chocolote12 said:
The WHF2E rule book. Enchant Item causes an item to become an enchanted item for one hour that possesses the properties of being Magical (you can punch ghosts with it) and giving +5 to a related stat (so a sword could boost strength but not manual dexterity like you'd use for pen writing; a circlet could boost Fellowship but not toughness).

Law of Logic just lets you focus for a minute or two and then come out swinging with +20 to your roll. As a noble who doesn't work on a split second time scale that's an overwhelming and astonishingly huge statistical advantage to his competency.

I'm not joking when I say that he could literally purchase Being That Good.

He can also wear whatever armor he wants, with its own powerful enchantments as a slab of steel that's been worked over by the Gold College, a benefit no other College can truly match (and the valiant attempt of the armor of Von Tarnus merely underlines how much better the real deal is).
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I rather doubt that the magical Chamon buffs of the WHF2E rule book are going to translate to this quest one to one, that'd be pretty bonkers tbh
 
People like talking about the buffs magic can give to other people. Well, the Golds have that too.

Trial and Error lets Gold Wizards emanate an aura that allows people to retry any rolls they botch for a hot second. Diegetically, if they don't like the direction of their effort they can try again.

That's another astonishingly powerful buff that works in every situation. Flub your comprehension of the battlefield? No you didn't. That goes for everyone in the general's tent.
 
cog-nito said:
I rather doubt that the magical Chamon buffs of the WHF2E rule book are going to translate to this quest one to one, that'd be pretty bonkers tbh
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The spells are, at least, canon to this quest. Law Of Logic is even Relatively Simple. But yeah, I don't think it'd be quite that powerful, maybe more on the order of a constant background +5 to all his administrative work. It's still like having a pocket calculator in a medieval world, after all.
 
DragonParadox said:
The only reason you would be that swarmed by mediocre schemers as a lord would be if you are disliked, a problem that is best solved IMO by not being disliked.
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No? You are always gonna get people who think messing with the local ruler is their ticket to riches or whatever else they desire.

Like, fundamentally, having a reputation for something is a great layer of protection. If people think that you are a beast at combat they will hesitate to make plans that involve outfighting you. If we can get Mandred a scary reputation for Intrigue for free then a lot of the people that would have made his weakness painful will be too intimidated to take a swing.
 
Where ever he goes I do want access to him, and to get closer to him as basically a cool aunt.

Thinking it over, it might be better to not have him be a grey for that, separate out the idea of Mathilde being his senior in the college.

One idea I have is to spend an action or two at some point teaching him sword techniques.
 
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