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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Chopak said:
@Boney I'm not quite sure how the deal for the "restricted" books we get from Library of Mournings work in practice? Are we allowed to do anything with the books we get? Share them (in other book or monetary deals) with anyone? Or are elves expecting us to only share it with the "worthy"?
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I don't think the thread is all that likely to turn around and vote to give all the books to sworn enemies of the Eonir or settle down and turn this into Bookseller Quest, so I don't see a problem with keeping all the minutiae of who is allowed access to what staying below the level of abstraction.
 
Jreengus said:
I don't really get how this would stop him from working with the nobles. Pretend you're the head of a noble house and your new EC is a grey wizard, are you going to be an obstructionist shit with the guy you're afraid has both the knowledge necessary to damn you and the authority to execute you or are you going to suck up to him and be as helpful as possible in the hope he'll overlook your indescretions?

I know I'd go for the second option.
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The theoretical noble does not have to be antagonistic, just not helpful. They can act within the letter of their duties and treat the new Elector Count like a combination of devil waving a contract and live snake. The feudal system works better for those lords who are liked not just feared.
 
Jreengus said:
I don't really get how this would stop him from working with the nobles. Pretend you're the head of a noble house and your new EC is a grey wizard, are you going to be an obstructionist shit with the guy you're afraid has both the knowledge necessary to damn you and the authority to execute you or are you going to suck up to him and be as helpful as possible in the hope he'll overlook your indescretions?

I know I'd go for the second option.
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People working with you out of fear, and constantly second guessing how much was out of their own will, is not a good long term strategy.
Eventually fear turns to resentment.
And resentful vassals are not going to do more than they must, if even that.
 
Known Arcane Marks and their effects

As there's been some talk about Arcane Marks, I've checked the wiki for the full list and tentatively classified their effects as Good, Neutral, Purely Aesthetic (but noticeably magic in origin), Annoying or Bad (for Mandred: while something like Feral or Dead Eyes could be just annoying for your average Amber or Amethyst Wizard, they're a lot worse for an Elector Count and potential Emperor).

Disclaimer: This isn't necessarily a full or completely accurate list, as obviously Boney might add, remove and/or modify any Mark: for example, Regimand's 'Beard turns into smoke' Mark, which doesn't seem to be among the ones in the list. Also, how bad or less bad each Mark is depends on the circumstances of the person in question; as mentioned, I've tried to ascertain how good or bad they would be for our godson Mandred von Holswig-Schliestein, who is in a significantly different situation to the average Wizard.


Ambers
  • Aloof: Others find you emotionally detached and somewhat rude.
  • Restless: You tend not to stay in one place for long, always needing to move about. It's worse when you're in closed spaces.
  • Dirty: For some reason, you attract dirt and you can never fully get clean.
  • Hairy: You grow thick hair all over your body. When you shave it off, it regrows quickly.
  • Feral: Your nails thicken and lengthen and your teeth grow pointed. You have a wild-eyed appearance others find unsettling.
  • Aura of Savagery: Domesticated animals tend to turn angry, almost violent, while in your presence.
  • Musk: You exude a strong musky smell that puts others off.
  • Brutish: You lack refinement and grace.
  • Small Friends: You attract small, though harmless, animals like squirrels, mice, small birds, and so on. They seem to show up when least appropriate, leaving droppings in food and drink.
  • Mark of Ghur: The rune of Ghur appears somewhere on your body.

Amethysts
  • Pallor: You sallow appearance, with pale skin and almost jaundiced eyes.
  • Clammy Skin: You have cold skin. Asleep, you could be mistaken for dead.
  • Dead Eyes: Your eyes are those of a dead man.
  • Graveyard Stench: You stink of the grave.
  • Aura of Death: All plants wither when you are within 4 yards.
  • Skull-like Visage: Your skin draws tightly to your skull.
  • Skeletal Frame: Your body muscle withers.
  • Voice of the Dead: Your voice changes so that when you speak, it is in an unsettling whisper.
  • Haunted: Voices and apparitions of the dead follow you everywhere, distracting you.
  • Mark of Shyish: The rune of Shyish appears somewhere on your body.

Brights
  • Temper: You have a quick temper, losing your cool at the slightest provocation.
  • Hyperactive: You can't sit still. You fidget constantly.
  • Red Hair: Your hair and eyebrows turn a bright, fiery red.
  • Face Tattoos: Odd markings, like tattoos, appear on your face.
  • Flaming Eyes: Your eyes literally smolder with energy. Animals become nervous when you're around.
  • Hot Skin: Your skin is always feverish and you have a flushed appearance.
  • Vulnerable to Cold: You are uncomfortable in the cold.
  • Aura of Brimstone: You stink of brimstone.
  • Raging Temper: You are volatile, more so than others of the Bright Order.
  • Mark of Aqshy: The rune of Aqshy appears somewhere on your body.

Celestials
  • Zephyr: Small breezes and winds gather about you, causing paper to rustle, dust to swirl up and other such minor effects.
  • Feather light: Azyr loosens the shackles of gravity. Your body weight decreases by 10%. Your appearance remains unchanged.
  • White Hair: Your hair turns snow white. Dyes do not hold.
  • Blue Eyes: Your eyes change colour to a startling shade of blue. In areas of low-lighting, they faintly glow.
  • Disturbing Visions: You commonly see disconnected portentous events that are meaningless to you. The constant barrage is distracting.
  • Scentless: Your natural smell is replaced by the scent of fresh air. Reeking fluids, noxious potions and other sources of stench gradually loose their aroma on contact with your person. Whilst this is advantageous after, say, a walk through a filth spattered street, it does serve to make people and animals uncomfortable in your presence.
  • Alarming Visions: Whenever you suffer the effects of Tzeentch's Curse, you must focus to control the sudden flashes of precognition that come with the botched magic.
  • Aura of Tranquility: You emit a strange, but peaceful, aura that others find calming.
  • Stargazer: You become agitated when you are unable to scry the stars.
  • Mark of Azyr: The rune of Azyr appears somewhere on your body.

Jades
  • Plant Growth: A small patch of plantlife begins to thrive upon your skin. These growths are inconsequential -- mould under the fingernails, ivy in the hair and so on -- but they are somewhat peculiar. They may be removed, but always grow back the following day.
  • Barefoot: You can't abide by wearing footwear.
  • Rapid Hair and Nails: Your hair and fingernails grow at an almost alarming rate. You must spend a portion of each day, trimming them back.
  • Green Skin: Your skin changes colour, assuming a greenish hue.
  • Vulnerability to Fire: You are more susceptible to fire.
  • Great Constitution: You become resistant to Disease.
  • Metal Revulsion: You can't bear to touch metal objects of any kind.
  • Aura of Growth: You emit an aura of growth and health, restoring life and colour to all plants you pass within 4 yards.
  • Bound to the Seasons: You are physically affected by the passage of the seasons. In the autumn, your body grows weaker; in the winter, you become feeble and slow; in the spring, you become hearty; and in the summer, you're the peak of health and move faster.
  • Mark of Ghyran: The rune of Ghyran appears somewhere on your body.

Lights
  • Choral voice: Your voice becomes suffused with the harmonious vibrations of Hysh. When you sing, it sounds as if scores of others are singing alongside you.
  • Eureka!: You inspire small acts of rememberance and deja-vu in those around you. You have no control over this effect, which tends to make non-magic users a little distracted when talking to you.
  • Pale: Your skin lightens considerably, bordering on semi-translucent.
  • Eerie Eyes: Your eyes change colour, becoming milky white or have a golden luminance.
  • Arrogant: Your deep knowledge (or rather your opinion about your own education) comes off as arrogant and pretentious.
  • Paranoid: Given your wisdom, you have a deeper understanding of the nature of the Realm of Chaos, making you suspicious of all those around you.
  • Vulnerability to Darkness: When in areas of low-lighting, you find it harder to channel magic.
  • Aura of Light: You give off a radiant energy that makes other light sources glow brighter than normal.
  • Luminescent: You give off a constant soft glow, making it nearly impossible to conceal your movements.
  • Mark of Hysh: The rune of Hysh appears somewhere on your body.

Golds
  • Quicksilver Tears: Your tears and sweat take on the appearance of mercury. For all other intents and purposes they remain unchanged from normal tears and sweat.
  • Leaden Tongue: Your voice takes on a harsh tone, akin to metal clashing upon metal. Your singing sounds like a gong-related accident.
  • Golden Skin: Your skin becomes thick, gaining a subtle golden sheen.
  • Stiff Limbs: Your limbs stiffen, making it hard to move around.
  • Magic Conductor: You attract magical energy. All characters within 4 yards find it harder to resist spells.
  • Aura of Magnetism: You emit a strange aura that attracts metals to your flesh.
  • Mechanical: When you interact with an animal, it sees you as an object rather than a creature. Animals will only attack you if you first attack them.
  • Greater Golden Skin: Your skin hardens into a thick shell.
  • Slow: You have a hard time moving around.
  • Mark of Chamon: The rune of Chamon appears somewhere on your body.

Greys
  • Flicker: Light seems uncomfortable in your presence. Candles flicker, lanterns dim and fires burn low when you are around.
  • Trickster: You cloak yourself in deception and misdirection, making you untrustworthy to others.
  • Mantle of Mist: Mist, fog, smoke and other vapours seem drawn to your side.
  • Aspect of Ulgu: Your frame lightens and tightens whilst your hair colour changes to grey.
  • Forgettable: People can't seem to remember your face.
  • Disturbing Eyes: Your eyes become grey and swirl with unnatural darkness.
  • Insubstantial: Your body becomes slightly insubstantial.
  • Unnatural shadow: Your shadow does not behave itself -- moving often of its own accord. The shifting wrongness of your shadow puts folk ill at ease, worse, superstitious peasants will need convincing that you are not a Daemon.
  • Shrouded: Your body draws shadows towards it.
  • Mark of Ulgu: The rune of Ulgu appears somewhere on your body.

Overall: Amethyst and Amber are really bad; everyone else has mostly cosmetic or mildly annoying ones, but one or two that range from 'bad' to 'horrible'. My personal ranking based on Marks alone (so without counting other relevant factors) would be Celestials/Golds > Brights > Lights/Greys/Jades >>> Ambers/Amethysts.
 
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Ergosum said:
Overall: Amethyst and Amber are really bad; everyone else has mostly cosmetic or mildly annoying ones, but one or two that range from 'bad' to 'horrible'. My personal ranking based on Marks alone (so without counting other relevant factors) would be Celestials/Golds > Brights > Lights/Greys/Jades >>> Ambers/Amethysts.
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The marks were not written with balance in mind, and I don't think this is an opinion. Wanna know why? Because the arcane marks in WFRP 4e are a little more balanced, and the author of the homebrew they were taken from (he's a credited collaborator) said he wasn't thinking about balance when making them, only what he thought was cool.
 
Andres said:
The marks were not written with balance in mind, and I don't think this is an opinion. Wanna know why? Because the arcane marks in WFRP 4e are a little more balanced, and the author of the homebrew they were taken from (he's a credited collaborator) said he wasn't thinking about balance when making them, only what he thought was cool.
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To be fair, this is also considering Mandred's context of being who he is. For a wandering Amber wizard in the wilderness, all of the 'bad' ones there would be mildly annoying, and half the 'annoying' ones would be neutral, but Mandred will have to deal with nobility and court matters whether he wants it or not. Similarly, for a Jade Wizard Metal Revulsion is bad but manageable, but for a commander who has to wear armor and wield a Runefang in every battle he leads it's pretty bad.
 
Ergosum said:
To be fair, this is also considering Mandred's context of being who he is. For a wandering Amber wizard in the wilderness, all of the 'bad' ones there would be mildly annoying, and half the 'annoying' ones would be neutral, but Mandred will have to deal with nobility and court matters whether he wants it or not. Similarly, for a Jade Wizard Metal Revulsion is bad but manageable, but for a commander who has to wear armor and wield a Runefang in every battle he leads it's pretty bad.
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To be fair, he probably won't be wearing armor at all- interferes with the spellcasting.

Probably wouldn't be the best look if he couldn't stand to wield his Runefang, though.
 
Ergosum said:
As there's been some talk about Arcane Marks, I've checked the wiki for the full list of and tentatively classified their effects as Good, Neutral, Annoying or Bad (for Mandred: while something like Feral or Dead Eyes could be just annoying for your average Amber or Amethyst Wizard, they're a lot worse for an Elector Count and potential Emperor)


Overall: Amethyst and Amber are really bad; everyone else has mostly cosmetic or mildly annoying ones, but one or two that range from 'bad' to 'horrible'. My personal ranking based on Marks alone (so without counting other relevant factors) would be Celestials/Golds > Brights > Lights/Greys/Jades >>> Ambers/Amethysts.
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Pretty good analysis, kind of dislike your color choices though, mainly because the Teal really stands out a bit much for neutral, and on an actual spectrum should probably be at the start of the green-orange-red, of the others.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I still don't understand how this is a bad thing—worst case scenario is that they can't put his face on the currency, and he has to use, I don't know, an "X" or something as a placeholder.
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Yeah works great until the greatswords see some mysterious person they don't recognize trying to steal Ghal Maraz, or coming out of the Empresses room.

(I'm clearly exaggerating but still so many ways it could make something go wrong.)
 
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NavySeel said:
Pretty good analysis, kind of dislike your color choices, mainly because the Teal really stands out a bit much for neutral, and on an actual spectrum should probably be at the start of the green-orange-red, of the others.
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I had thought about yellow but didn't know how visible it would be for lightmode users. Would a darker tone of blue be better?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I still don't understand how this is a bad thing—worst case scenario is that they can't put his face on the currency, and he has to use, I don't know, an "X" or something as a placeholder.
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I don't see why this mark would prevent comeone making an image of his face as long as he is there posing for it. Or just use an older image.

NavySeel said:
Yeah works great until the greatswords see some mysterious person they don't recognize trying to steal Ghal Maraz, or coming out of the Empresses room.
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Or we could assume that people in the empire are capable of remembering simple facts like "The Elector count has an arcane mark that makes us forget his face." Hell we could even go further and assume that the college that has had to deal with this arcane mark for centuries has come up with ways of mitigating it and would be willing to teach Mandred what they are.
 
Something I haven't seen anyone mention is that Arcane Marks are not limited to the 'known' ones.

Regimand got a smoke beard, and then there's the battle wizards in Sylvania-

Boney said:
"Every day, someone with fire instead of hair or surrounded by birds or a skull instead of a face wanders in a
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The latter two sound like 'Small Friends' and a very extreme expression of several Amethyst marks, but the first doesn't match any. 'Red Hair' has your hair become the color of fire, not actual literal fire.

Boney said:
"One of them walked off with my wall sconce stuck to her, I had to send a footman after her to get it back! She didn't even notice! Another made all the candles flare up, and one set fire to the curtains! One of them I had to tell only visit in the morning, because if he comes too late in the evening all the staff start nodding off!"
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Aura of Magnetism and possibly a more extreme expression of Aura of Tranquility, but spontaneous fires don't match any marks and Flicker only dims candles.

Boney said:
Part of Tempelhof got destroyed, and some of them rebuilt it, but refused to rebuild the roofs because 'why would they want the stars obstructed?'
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This one's just funny.

Point is- Marks are the expressions of the effects magic has on each individual's soul, so it shouldn't be surprising that while there are tendencies, they are only tendencies. You can't plan for every possibility when it comes to Marks.
 
Jreengus said:
I don't see why this mark would prevent comeone making an image of his face as long as he is there posing for it. Or just use an older image.


Or we could assume that people in the empire are capable of remembering simple facts like "The Elector count has an arcane mark that makes us forget his face." Hell we could even go further and assume that the college that has had to deal with this arcane mark for centuries has come up with ways of mitigating it and would be willing to teach Mandred what they are.
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I mean as I said I was exaggerating.

Having so many people go to all that extra effort king of defeats the original point of that mark not being bad, though.
 
GrimTheMad said:
latter two sound like 'Small Friends' and a very extreme expression of several Amethyst marks, but the first doesn't match any. 'Red Hair' has your hair become the color of fire, not actual literal fire.
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A tabletop model (and Total Warhammer model) for the Bright Wizard has a literal flaming hair-do. Sienna in Vermintide as well.

It's basically the classic look for a Bright Wizard in Warhammer.
 
Jreengus said:
All what extra effort? What are you imagining happening here that makes this mark so bad?
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Briefing guards and staff, coming up with ways to manage it.

If he ended up in the wrong clothes or a situation people weren't expecting him to be in with no other context to recognize him, then they flat out won't.
He will be some guy.

Maybe pass phrases or other ideas could work, but then as I said, extra effort.
 
NavySeel said:
Briefing guards and staff, coming up with ways to manage it.

If he ended up in the wrong clothes or a situation people weren't expecting him to be in with no other context to recognize him, then they flat out won't.
He will be some guy.

Maybe pass phrases or other ideas could work, but then as I said, extra effort.
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Ok I think we just have a different idea of what a bad mark is because we seem to be imagining a similar level of effort to counteract it. But to me this all just qualifies it as an annoying mark but not enough to be a bad one.
 
NavySeel said:
Briefing guards and staff, coming up with ways to manage it.

If he ended up in the wrong clothes or a situation people weren't expecting him to be in with no other context to recognize him, then they flat out won't.
He will be some guy.

Maybe pass phrases or other ideas could work, but then as I said, extra effort.
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That actually happened to Henry VIII once. Dude used to love dressing up as Robin Hood, and after a night of drinking ended up in the gaol because none of the guards recognised him.

... Or at least, I thought it happened. I'm actually struggling to pull up a proper source for the anecdote.
 
I mean, it's entirely possible that you can learn to temporarily suppress Forgettable and let people remember you as long as you maintain concentration if he needs to get someone to recognize him. We really haven't messed with Arcane Marks enough to be sure.
 
I think looking at arcane marks wouldn't be as productive as looking at the broader themes of the winds. Is it better for Mandred to have a more Ulguy personality, or a more Ghury one? That sort of thing. To that end I think Azyr would be best, since it complements his knightness without exacerbating its downsides.
 
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