Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
So there has, understandably, been a lot of focus on Mandred this turn, but I would like to zero in on the other potential wizard who is going to be part of our social actions in the near future, the one from K8P, the Undumgi kid.

On the one hand we were expecting this, wherever there are humans there will eventually be wizards, but I think this is a lot more momentous than just 'another small source of wizards for the Colleges of Magic'. I mean consider the BEEG Tree (TM), we made that thing in the middle of the hold, it is as large as a mountain and grew in a matter of weeks, it made the ground under it blatantly magical and no one in the whole hold is more than curious about the thing, not even concerned. Even in a place like Aldorf there would be some quiet grumbling and in most other place in the Old World (Empire, Bretonia, Estalia etc...) there would be pitchforks.

The Future Apprentice (man it is going to be nice when they have some kind of name) is going to be coming from a place where magic is not just accepted, but celebrated, every single Undumgi knows that if it had not been for the Eye they would not have survived Waagh Birdmuncha, nevermind all the other things Mathilde and company got up to. They, and most other K8P born wizards are likely going to want to go back to the hold when they realize that most of the world is not as welcoming to wizards, more to the point it might lead to some of their peers also trying their luck in one of the most wizard friendly places on the continent which also has one of the largest libraries on the continent.

As weird as it sounds I think that in another generation K8P may have a lot more wizards of all sorts than its population alone can account for and far better integrated into the Karak than imperial wizards usually are with the common peole.
 
Ergosum said:
As there's been some talk about Arcane Marks, I've checked the wiki for the full list of and tentatively classified their effects as Good, Neutral, Annoying or Bad (for Mandred: while something like Feral or Dead Eyes could be just annoying for your average Amber or Amethyst Wizard, they're a lot worse for an Elector Count and potential Emperor)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This list is mostly good, but a little weird because it counts only some of the Marks with social penalties as Annoying. Like...Face Tattoos gives a social penalty bigger than Scentless in the RPG (and thus likely here as well), and yet Face Tattoos is listed as Neutral while Scentless is listed as Annoying.

For the record, reclassifying those that grant social penalties as Annoying effects the following Marks:

Bright: Face Tattoos, Flaming Eyes,
Celestial: Blue Eyes,
Jade: Green Skin,
Light: Eerie Eyes,

So it hits all the higher ranked Colleges a little, but hits Brights harder.
 
I do love the big tree.
And how uncaring everyone is about it.

We hired an umgi wizard to put up some plants, she did, not seeing a problem here.
- random dawi
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This list is mostly good, but a little weird because it counts only some of the Marks with social penalties as Annoying. Like...Face Tattoos gives a social penalty bigger than Scentless in the RPG (and thus likely here as well), and yet Face Tattoos is listed as Neutral while Scentless is listed as Annoying.

For the record, reclassifying those that grant social penalties as Annoying effects the following Marks:

Bright: Face Tattoos, Flaming Eyes,
Celestial: Blue Eyes,
Jade: Green Skin,
Light: Eerie Eyes,

So it hits all the higher ranked Colleges a little, but hits Brights harder.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't know the mechanical penalties, I was just going by the fluff. Flavorwise, having some weird tattoos or glowing eyes might get an odd look or two but all Elector Counts have their quirks and these don't seem on the level of 'You exude a strong musky smell that puts others off' or 'All plants wither when you are within 4 yards'.

That said, this isn't supposed to be 100% objective because there's some degree of ambiguity in how good or bad most of these are. I'd have classified Scentless as 'Neutral' if it wasn't by the fluff explicitly saying that it makes people uncomfortable in your presence, and even then I could put it as Neutral again depending on the level of uncomfortability it causes - again, society norms are biased towards the ones on top, and what might be considered 'weirdness' for a peasant could be taken as a 'harmless quirk' in a sufficiently powerful noble such as Mandred.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't go by the mechanical effect the marks have rather then their logical effects. Face tattoos do turn some people off but can be worked around.
Having a man walk through your garden and watching your petunias wither and die is more of a reason instantly not liking someone.
 
Ergosum said:
I don't know the mechanical penalties, I was just going by the fluff. Flavorwise, having some weird tattoos or glowing eyes might get an odd look or two but all Elector Counts have their quirks and these don't seem on the level of 'You exude a strong musky smell that puts others off' or 'All plants wither when you are within 4 yards'.

That said, this isn't supposed to be 100% objective because there's some degree of ambiguity in how good or bad most of these are. I'd have classified Scentless as 'Neutral' if it wasn't by the fluff explicitly saying that it makes people uncomfortable in your presence, and even then I could put it as Neutral again depending on the level of uncomfortability it causes - again, society norms are biased towards the ones on top, and what might be considered 'weirdness' for a peasant could be taken as a 'harmless quirk' in a sufficiently powerful noble such as Mandred.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Just noting which Arcane Marks are socially problematic despite being listed in the Neutral category, which seemed relevant to the intent of the list. Scentless is definitely only an issue inasmuch as it causes social problems, so noting the other Marks that do the same seems worthwhile.

Talon TigerDino said:
Why do some face tattoos carry a diplomacy penalty but having a voice like a malfunctioning chainsaw doesn't? Who designed the mechanical effects of these marks?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No idea. I'd suspect that Leaden Voice does indeed give social penalties, just less directly, but it's hard to say.

Tobtorp said:
Yeah, I wouldn't go by the mechanical effect the marks have rather then their logical effects. Face tattoos do turn some people off but can be worked around.
Having a man walk through your garden and watching your petunias wither and die is more of a reason instantly not liking someone.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, I'm not trying to say social problems are enough to make a Mark a deal breaker, but I think they're enough to make it something we'd prefer Mandred not get. Hence suggesting they be in the 'Annoying' category.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Just noting which Arcane Marks are socially problematic despite being listed in the Neutral category, which seemed relevant to the intent of the list. Scentless is definitely only an issue inasmuch as it causes social problems, so noting the other Marks that do the same seems worthwhile.



No idea. I'd suspect that Leaden Voice does indeed give social penalties, just less directly, but it's hard to say.



I mean, I'm not trying to say social problems are enough to make a Mark a deal breaker, but I think they're enough to make it something we'd prefer Mandred not get. Hence suggesting they be in the 'Annoying' category.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No that's what I mean, I am just bad at expressing it. Face tattoos can be bad, but other can be too. Don't follow the numbers follow the reasoning.
 
In the Empire, where obvious, visible mutation comes with heavy social stigma, things we might look at as bizarre-but-benign here like green skin or weird eyes are a lot worse to be burdened with.

Yeah, they can be worked past, but you'll never shake off the smell of Chaos entirely and people who might have had a favourable first impression instead are poisoned against you from the start.
 
Gavin Prince said:
In the Empire, where obvious, visible mutation comes with heavy social stigma, things we might look at as bizarre-but-benign here like green skin or weird eyes are a lot worse to be burdened with.

Yeah, they can be worked past, but you'll never shake off the smell of Chaos entirely and people who might have had a favourable first impression instead are poisoned against you from the start.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I imagine the social penalties are abstractions written with the 'average human of the Empire' in mind.

Reactions in Altdorf would be a fair bit different than reactions in Osterland.

Mathilde's shadow is a good example- for most of the people she tends to interact with, it has very little effect on how they treat her, despite it theoretically being a social penalty for most people in general.
 
DragonParadox said:
So there has, understandably, been a lot of focus on Mandred this turn, but I would like to zero in on the other potential wizard who is going to be part of our social actions in the near future, the one from K8P, the Undumgi kid.

On the one hand we were expecting this, wherever there are humans there will eventually be wizards, but I think this is a lot more momentous than just 'another small source of wizards for the Colleges of Magic'. I mean consider the BEEG Tree (TM), we made that thing in the middle of the hold, it is as large as a mountain and grew in a matter of weeks, it made the ground under it blatantly magical and no one in the whole hold is more than curious about the thing, not even concerned. Even in a place like Aldorf there would be some quiet grumbling and in most other place in the Old World (Empire, Bretonia, Estalia etc...) there would be pitchforks.

The Future Apprentice (man it is going to be nice when they have some kind of name) is going to be coming from a place where magic is not just accepted, but celebrated, every single Undumgi knows that if it had not been for the Eye they would not have survived Waagh Birdmuncha, nevermind all the other things Mathilde and company got up to. They, and most other K8P born wizards are likely going to want to go back to the hold when they realize that most of the world is not as welcoming to wizards, more to the point it might lead to some of their peers also trying their luck in one of the most wizard friendly places on the continent which also has one of the largest libraries on the continent.

As weird as it sounds I think that in another generation K8P may have a lot more wizards of all sorts than its population alone can account for and far better integrated into the Karak than imperial wizards usually are with the common people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Every time I think of how K8P's general culture develops I smile at how weird it's all gotten. I constantly imagine how traders who decide to stop by K8P are probably reacting just like that one Ostermark heir at finding seeing a big fuck-off tower, a Moot-level valley in the middle of the World's Edge Mountains, humans of all stripes living alongside formerly-Imperial dwarves, halfling children playing games with a wolf and wolf-sized rats, and maybe (if they're unlucky) finding out about the Emperor Dragon and giant spiders.

I love it, but it's definitely going to set weird expectations for its first native wizard. If they haven't traveled far (and there's not that much reason to unless they're a trader of some kind), they are going to be either excited or overwhelmed/scared about how different things are outside. It's not just going to be how wizards are feared and/or hated, but how most villages don't have walls, Beastmen and Orcs/Goblins are just there in the forests, and so on and so forth.

Altdorf itself will probably be comforting in how weird it can be, though.
 
Nurgle said:
More than likely she is married and has a secret family. Because of her family history it seems to be the best thing to not tell anyone you have family.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mm, not sure about that. Abelhelm's family was in secret because Roswita was grown and his wife was passed. I'm not so certain about keeping up a functioning marriage as an Elector Countess while said spouse is still alive.

That being said, we have no actual idea how big the Van Hal family is, for all we know it could be gigantic. At the bare minimum there's Hertwig Van Hal to show up in a few decades in Lustria with Markus Wulfhart.
 
Talon TigerDino said:
Why do some face tattoos carry a diplomacy penalty but having a voice like a malfunctioning chainsaw doesn't? Who designed the mechanical effects of these marks?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Presumably it just doesn't really sound that bad. I think it's a more interesting outcome than just assuming that they forgot about it when they didn't forget it for every other table of marks.

Inexplicably loquacious robots are far more flavorful than the mundane kind.
 
Last edited:
Gavin Prince said:
In the Empire, where obvious, visible mutation comes with heavy social stigma, things we might look at as bizarre-but-benign here like green skin or weird eyes are a lot worse to be burdened with.

Yeah, they can be worked past, but you'll never shake off the smell of Chaos entirely and people who might have had a favourable first impression instead are poisoned against you from the start.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Several of them note the 'might be mistaken for a mutant' thing when discussing their social penalties, yeah.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Several of them note the 'might be mistaken for a mutant' thing when discussing their social penalties, yeah.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That said, 'being mistaken for a mutant' is a lot less likely when you're an Elector Count holding a Runefang and sorrounded by Greatswords and priests and Witch Hunters. Most of these penalties are more applicable when dealing with common people (as most Wizards usually do) but not so much with high ranking nobles and Electors (as Mandred mostly will), or at least no more than the social penalties from being a Wizard (which will be a known fact whether he has Arcane Marks or not).
 
Ergosum said:
That said, 'being mistaken for a mutant' is a lot less likely when you're an Elector Count holding a Runefang and sorrounded by Greatswords and priests and Witch Hunters. Most of these penalties are more applicable when dealing with common people (as most Wizards usually do) but not so much with high ranking nobles and Electors (as Mandred mostly will), or at least no more than the social penalties from being a Wizard (which will be a known fact whether he has Arcane Marks or not).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I dunno if I buy this. The consequences of people thinking you're a mutant are very different for an Elector Count with bodyguards, but the Empire's attitude towards mutants is definitely very much still a thing among the upper classes, and while they might not be willing to call him a mutant to his face, an Elector Count with green skin (or whatever) is still gonna come in for serious prejudice from his peers and have a harder time winning them over to his side politically.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I dunno if I buy this. The consequences of people thinking you're a mutant are very different for an Elector Count with bodyguards, but the Empire's attitude towards mutants is definitely very much still a thing among the upper classes, and while they might not be willing to call him a mutant to his face, an Elector Count with green skin (or whatever) is still gonna come in for serious prejudice from his peers and have a harder time winning them over to his side politically.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes but, well, he's a Wizard. Even if you don't count 'shooting fireballs/lightning/etc out of your hands' as visible supposed mutations, he's probably going to develop obvious Arcane Mark(s) at some point regardless of which College he goes to. It's just something he's going to have to deal with either way, unless he specifically wants to not be a Wizard - at which point he just gets loaded with dampeners and this discussion is moot.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top